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Author Topic: I made a bad mistake while using the Cloake Board Method  (Read 7992 times)

Offline capt44

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I made a bad mistake while using the Cloake Board Method
« on: April 19, 2015, 01:26:43 pm »
I raised a batch of Queens using the cloake board method and had very good results.
But then I decided to raise a second batch.
I put the cloake insert back in the cloake board and placed empty cell cup bars in for the bees to polish which they did.
I then grafted and they excepted 65 out of 68
When they capped them off I waited 3 days and pulled one frame of 28 and put them in the incubator leaving 2 frames.
I went in yesterday to get the other two frames and every one of the queen cells had the side tore out and the larva was gone.
Meaning they were killed by a rouge queen.
I lost 37 queens.
Come to find out I had placed a frame of brood in the top for the bees to work.
I failed to remove the frame after the first batch.
The bees made a queen cell on that brood frame and that's the queen that killed all the others.
I am setting up another hive cloake board style again today.
I will graft tomorrow.
But that's what happens when you're in a hurry and don't think.  I lost 37 developing queens that were in capped off cells.
Something to think about.
Richard Vardaman (capt44)

Offline Maggiesdad

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Re: I made a bad mistake while using the Cloake Board Method
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2015, 03:45:56 pm »
Wow...  :oops:

Offline little john

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Re: I made a bad mistake while using the Cloake Board Method
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2015, 06:35:33 pm »
That's why people use roller cages - to stop that kind of thing happening.

One of the many things about beekeeping I've never understood - is why beeks rear so many q/cells in one place at one time. Now - this is not 'having a pop' at the OP - but rather, questioning the thinking behind why this is done ...

The reason I ask is because rearing lots of q/cells is both demanding (in terms of the cell-starters being used) AND risky if anything should go wrong.

On the basis that even a nuc is capable of raising a couple of perfectly good queen cells, I restrict my queen cell numbers to no more than 16 per hive. If I wanted more, then I wouldn't increase the capability of a single cell-starter, I'd simply run 2 of them, or even 4. Indeed, I don't actually run a 'cell-starter' at all - the same box is used to start, finish and incubate. By using split upper boxes, 16 (if I'm lucky) capped cells are held in one half, whilst another 16 are started in the other half.

This way, the demands being made of each rearing hive are relatively modest, and risks would be spread over several queen-rearing hives if I were ever to expand the operation.

Again, I must stress that this is not being critical of the OP - but rather, questioning the thinking behind why the 'maximum number of q/cells in one box' approach is adopted by so many beekeepers.

LJ
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 04:46:00 am by little john »
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Offline davmal

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Re: I made a bad mistake while using the Cloake Board Method
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2015, 08:09:08 am »
This is an excellent discussion. And, no, little john, you are not being critical. You are adding good info to the discussion. I wanted to get into queen rearing this year for the first time. A lot of what is available to read tends to focus on the large queen rearing operation where many queens are needed. But, like you, I just need a few from time to time. Little John, can you direct me to a web site that explains your technique in detail? And capt44, I enjoy your many contributions to this forum. Thanks. Can you direct me to a detailed description of the cloake board technique?

Offline iddee

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Re: I made a bad mistake while using the Cloake Board Method
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2015, 08:14:13 am »
Little John, how many cells would you start per hive if you got an order for 500 queens from one customer?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline davmal

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Re: I made a bad mistake while using the Cloake Board Method
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2015, 08:42:03 am »
I answered one of my questions. Here is a good write up regarding the Cloake Board Technique: http://threeriversbeekeepers.com/documents/CloakeBoardMethod.pdf

Offline little john

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Re: I made a bad mistake while using the Cloake Board Method
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2015, 04:45:17 pm »
Little John, how many cells would you start per hive if you got an order for 500 queens from one customer?

500 Queens ?  Well, I wouldn't accept such an order, as I really enjoy queen-rearing, and 500 would turn enjoyment into a mass-production slog ... but what if I did accept such an order ?

Yes, I'd stay with my 16 q/cells per standard hive, and produce the 500 with 2 runs, 6 or 7 days apart - so that's 32 q/cells per hive. (assuming 100% success rate ... if only  :smile: )

500 divided by 32 suggests that 16 standard single-brood production hives would be required for such an order.

Total requirements would then be:

16 x single-brood production hives
32 x 5-frame nucs
32 x 5-frame supers
16 ekes
16 Queen Excluders
16 x plastic sheets

No need for Morris Boards (which is what I currently use) or Cloake Boards (which are simpler to use than the Morris Board) - just some sheets of plastic. Read on ...

Quote
The Steve Rose system of Queen Rearing, using a queenright hive and minimal equipment.

This system consists of a normal queen-right National hive with either 2 half width brood boxes or a split brood box mounted above a queen excluder and below a super. The super - or similar - is rotated through 90 degrees, to provide a path for the bees to cross over between the 2 half boxes.

Method:

# Place a queen excluder and 2 half-width brood boxes (or a split brood box) over a standard colony at a time when the first supers would normally be fitted. Place a super at 90 degrees above the half-boxes, or provide some other means of allowing the bees to cross over, and thus migrate between the two boxes - such as a crown board fitted with beespace battens.

# Then - wait for bees to start putting nectar in the half boxes and mature drones are available.

Sequence:

# Day 1: Place one frame of open brood and one of pollen into one of the half boxes. Place a grafting frame with 18-20 queen cell cups between these frames, ensuring that there is nectar in the two remaining frames (so that the half box now holds 5 frames).

# Day 2: Insert a plastic sheet between the half box containing the brood, pollen and grafting frames, and the queen excluder underneath it.
Graft young larvae into the queen cell frame and return it between the brood and pollen, so that the cells may be started by the emergency response. Leave the other half box in position on its own (open) queen excluder and hence accessible to the bees.

# Day 3 (or 4): Remove the plastic sheet (leaving the queen excluder in place) so that the queen pheromones have normal access to the box again, so that the queen cells may be finished by the supercedure impulse.

#  10 days later transfer the drawn queen cells into mating nucs.

I've drawn a diagram to make things (perhaps ?) a little clearer. The top boxes (shown empty) are supers with empty or capped honeycomb - it really doesn't matter - they are really only there to extend the pheromone path length (shown in magenta). There is an additional eke under the roof, enabling a pathway aross the boxes.



This is perhaps the simplest method yet devised which requires nothing which cannot be already found in most apiaries. No special kit at all is required.

So - yes, I could raise 500 queen cells to fulfill an order if pressed - but I really wouldn't want to ...  :smile:

LJ
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Offline capt44

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Re: I made a bad mistake while using the Cloake Board Method
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2015, 06:19:00 pm »
No I don't think the comment is critical but informative.
I don't overload one hive using the cloake board method.
I usually have around 3-5 cloake board hives going at a time.
I look at the amount of bees I have in the top box and go from there on the amount of cells I put per box.
When I graft I use the wet cell method and purge the cells with a good amount of royal jelly.
I usually don't go over 50 or so in a box at one time.
I believe if you overload the box with alot of queen cells then the larva can be under nourished.
But the 500 queen order is in batches of 50 or 100 depending on their need.
I try to raise healthy queens not mass produce queens that are usually weak and don't lay well.
So far everyone is happy with their queens, I give state health papers and give a guarantee on the queens.   
To give you a example, I just sold out again this morning.
                                                                                                           
Richard Vardaman (capt44)

Offline little john

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Re: I made a bad mistake while using the Cloake Board Method
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2015, 02:31:42 am »
I try to raise healthy queens not mass produce queens that are usually weak and don't lay well.
So far everyone is happy with their queens, I give state health papers and give a guarantee on the queens.   
To give you a example, I just sold out again this morning.
 

That has to be the important issue - I only wish more breeders would think like that.

'best,
LJ
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Offline capt44

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Re: I made a bad mistake while using the Cloake Board Method
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2015, 11:58:32 pm »
I grafted 128 today.
Richard Vardaman (capt44)