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Author Topic: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed  (Read 4707 times)

Offline The15thMember

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Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« on: April 11, 2023, 10:53:53 pm »
When I went up to my apiary to inspect today, I noticed a huge pile of dead bees in front of one of my hives, so I decided to open them up and take a look.  At first I wasn't concerned, as there seemed to be a fair number of bees in the top box, although I did notice a few dysentery stains inside the hive.  But as I took the top box off, a bunch of bees flew out of the second box, with that trademark "robber-fleeing-the-scene" look about them.  There were hardly any bees in the bottom box, and I noticed a pile of bees on the slatted rack, so I removed the bottom box as well.  Then I saw the bottom board.  :oops: :cry:  You can see the carnage for yourself in the pictures. 

Here's the background: I split this queen's hive on 3/23.  This half of the split contained the original queen, Queen Persephone.  I did a sugar roll on the hive the same day I split them, and there were no mites.  (All my hives came off the winter clean or mathematically so.)  I did queen cell reduction on the queenless half of the split on 4/1, and they looked completely fine.  Sometime last week, I noticed this hive, the one with the queen, had a big pile of dead drones out front, which I assumed was a result of a little cold snap we had, but today all the dead bees were workers.  There was traffic coming in and out of the entrance, but I'm pretty sure they were just robbers, as they all left in disarray when I started to take the hive apart, then returned to continue to snoop about as I was dealing with the situation, and then started bugging the hive next door when I removed the equipment. 

I noticed the queen, who was being well attended, on the top bars of the top box, so I put her in my queen catcher for safe keeping while I worked.  Nothing about her seemed amiss.  Most of the bees in the top box looked fine, although a few were a little sluggish.  The craziest part was that the brood nest, comprising the majority of the bottom two boxes, also looked basically normal.  The brood pattern wasn't perfect, but it certainly wasn't shotgunned, and this queen has never been a perfectly orderly layer.  I'm pretty sure the brood was dead, since we had a very cold night last night, and something about it just seemed, I don't know, not alive.  But with the exception of a very few larvae/pupae that had some black spots on them (picture in next post), the brood was white, almost all of the young brood was fed, and there were eggs in the bottom box, which indicates to me that 3 days ago, everything was normal.  There was no honey anywhere, and there were some dead adults with their heads in cells, but we have lots of spring flowers blooming, so I can't see how they could have starved.  I'm assuming the stores were robbed out. 

I decided to shake all the surviving bees into clean equipment on a different stand, that way the robbers would be confused, and I could clean out all the equipment.  I put them in a single medium with a very reduced entrance, and I gave them 3 partial frames of honey, 1 of pollen, and the remaining 4 drawn blanks.  I did see one mite on one of the surviving workers.  I froze as many frames as I could fit in my freezer and buried the dead bees in the compost pile.  The dead bees looked very normal.  Some had tongues out and some didn't.  All had all their hair, and very few were struggling in the dead pile.  Those that were just looked sluggish or were on their backs and weakly moving their legs.   

All the other hives, as far as I know, are seemingly normal.  I inspected one other hive today, and they were a little bit low on food, and also oddly had no open brood in their bottom box, but nothing overly alarming.  I also did QC reduction in my mean hive, and while I didn't inspect their honey super, when I removed it, it felt quite heavy.  As I mentioned, we have lots of flowers blooming, the redbuds, crabapples, and dogwoods are all going very strong.  In spite of our coldish nighttime temps lately, we haven't had a frost, since it's been dry.  The days have been warm, and the hives have been cranking.  I collected a swarm today, which I'm pretty sure was from one of my other colonies.     

What do you guys think happened? 

(If you give me a second, I'll add the rest of my pictures in the next post.)             
« Last Edit: April 11, 2023, 11:06:07 pm by The15thMember »
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2023, 10:55:09 pm »
More photos. 
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Offline Bob Wilson

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2023, 11:53:52 pm »
Could this particular hive have found a nectar source that had been sprayed with poison? They dragged out some of the dying before the rest succumbed? Then the cold snap chilled the brood, but the queen and nursery bees are fine, and the comb looks good.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2023, 12:15:54 am »
Could this particular hive have found a nectar source that had been sprayed with poison? They dragged out some of the dying before the rest succumbed? Then the cold snap chilled the brood, but the queen and nursery bees are fine, and the comb looks good.
This was my exact thought, but I didn't want to sway anyone's opinions by saying it up front.  It's really easy to point a finger and say "pesticide kill", but I can't think of any disease that would take down a healthy, relatively mite-free hive in 3 days.  If so, I hope, hope, hope the other bees don't find whatever it is, or that whatever it is isn't extremely dangerous for very long.  :sad:
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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2023, 06:42:52 am »
Are they planting corn?  The coatings on the corn seed are neonicotinoids and these often end up in piles of dust that get collected by the bees as pollen. 
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2023, 08:20:30 am »
Had a similar problem a few years ago. Found out a nearby neighbor had just sprayed his pear trees.

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Offline Acebird

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2023, 09:30:20 am »
I don't believe in cold snaps killing bees.  I do believe in hives miss calculating and running out of stores.  Robbing takes no more than a day and the queen would be dead and the comb would be tore up.  If the bees were poisoned the hive would be full of honey.  Just my thoughts.
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Offline cao

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2023, 10:06:54 am »
About ten years ago when I started beekeeping, the day after the neighbor planted corn(about 80 acre field) my hives had a pile of dead bees out front.  This happened 2 years in a row.  Although your situation looks much worse.  Poisoning by someone spraying fields seems a likely cause.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2023, 11:04:55 am »
Are they planting corn?  The coatings on the corn seed are neonicotinoids and these often end up in piles of dust that get collected by the bees as pollen.
About ten years ago when I started beekeeping, the day after the neighbor planted corn(about 80 acre field) my hives had a pile of dead bees out front.  This happened 2 years in a row.  Although your situation looks much worse.  Poisoning by someone spraying fields seems a likely cause.
I would doubt around here it is corn.  We (thankfully) don't have any commercial farms nearby, and the land's not flat enough for corn anyway, except maybe in the valley. 

Had a similar problem a few years ago. Found out a nearby neighbor had just sprayed his pear trees.

Phillip
A fruit tree spray is far more likely in my opinion, just based on what people grow around here.  I'm also very close to the campus of WCU, and who knows if they sprayed anything, although I've never had any trouble with this before. 

I don't believe in cold snaps killing bees.  I do believe in hives miss calculating and running out of stores.  Robbing takes no more than a day and the queen would be dead and the comb would be tore up.  If the bees were poisoned the hive would be full of honey.  Just my thoughts.
I don't think the cold killed the adults, I think it killed the brood.  Also, my flow this time of year is kind of at equilibrium, with most hives not having much capped honey, although there is enough nectar coming in that I don't need to feed.  Most of the stores in this hive would have been open honey, not capped honey, so there would be no need for the robbers to tear up the comb.  The surviving bees were all up in the top of the hive, as if they had just abandoned the bottom boxes.  I wonder if they retreated up there away from the robbers, since the top was wasn't even fully drawn, or perhaps they clustered there in the cold and didn't warm up quickly enough to protect the bottom box the following morning.   

Thanks for the help everyone.
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2023, 02:51:34 pm »
With an incident like this, what should I do in the way of cleaning the equipment?  Do I need to be concerned that the hive itself is contaminated?  Is this a vinegar thing, a bleach thing, a lay out in the sun for a few days thing?  I'll be freezing all the comb anyway, since it's a good opportunity to get rid of waxworms and beetles, but how much should I worry about the woodenware?  What about the comb?
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Offline beesnweeds

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2023, 05:15:06 pm »
Something is definitely up with the brood.  It looks viral or bacterial to me.  Could be parasitic mite syndrome.  Scoop up a bunch of the dead bees on the bottom board and do a mite wash.  You can use a tablespoon of dish detergent to a half gallon of water.  You could also take some more photos of the brood and send them to Dr. Milbrath at MSU.
Everyone loves a worker.... until its laying.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2023, 06:36:55 pm »
Something is definitely up with the brood.  It looks viral or bacterial to me.  Could be parasitic mite syndrome.  Scoop up a bunch of the dead bees on the bottom board and do a mite wash.  You can use a tablespoon of dish detergent to a half gallon of water.  You could also take some more photos of the brood and send them to Dr. Milbrath at MSU.
I did a mite check a few weeks ago, and it came up clean.  The overwhelming majority of the brood was entirely normal, maybe 10-15 cells that looked like that.   
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Offline beesnweeds

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2023, 08:11:56 pm »
Probably pesticides then.
Everyone loves a worker.... until its laying.

Offline yes2matt

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2023, 09:23:08 pm »
Pesticide kill. Make a phone call.

https://www.ncbeekeepers.org/resources/apiary-inspection-program

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Offline Acebird

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2023, 09:02:09 am »
Most of the stores in this hive would have been open honey, not capped honey, so there would be no need for the robbers to tear up the comb.
But they will anyway and they will kill the queen first.  However there won't be that many dead.  The hive is not made up of 50% soldiers.  Most will join the robbers and save their butts by joining the conquerors.  I am not saying it is not poison but I would expect honey and nectar in the hive unless it happened quite a bit in the future.  10 days, maybe.
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2023, 06:57:24 pm »
They're still alive!  :happy:  I haven't notice any robbing or foraging since I put them in this new box, so I peeked in at them today and the population appears stable.  No more bees are dying, and everyone looks healthy.  The queen had a section of eggs about the size of my palm on two frames, and they still had plenty of stores.  I thought about giving them a frame of capped brood to boost them up, but I'm not sure they have enough workers to keep more babies warm at the moment, so I just left them the way they are.     
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2023, 08:22:14 am »
fingers crossed.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2023, 11:10:14 pm »
fingers crossed.

Agreed, at least you have more good 'flow' time with hopefully plenty of recourses to yet help the colony get back on it feet. ..

Phillip
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 07:37:38 am by Ben Framed »
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2023, 06:59:51 pm »
I switched the position of this hive and one of my strong hives on 4/18 to give the weak hive a boost in foragers, and today I found the queen dead just off the bottom board and the bees building queen cells.  Would the new foragers have killed the queen?  Or do you think the stress of this whole situation just caused them to supersede?
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2023, 09:01:50 am »
Would the new foragers have killed the queen?
No, but if the initial die off was caused by robbers it might have started again.
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