Author Topic: makeing foundation (Read 4435 times)

fat/beeman · « **on:** January 24, 2011, 10:19:45 pm »

I have my own wax mill and recycle all my own chemical free wax into sheets of nice foundation. its not hard to do. I make same size all way thru the hives. I run 4.9 and have since 1989
Don

Jim134 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 24, 2011, 10:34:09 pm »

Don .......
You can not be chemical free in the USA but you can be treatment free.

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)+

deknow · « **Reply #2 on:** January 24, 2011, 10:57:03 pm »

Hi Don,

We were very impressed with your foundation making setup. We've worked with a couple of other beekeepers making foundation with their setups, and yours in unique in that you dip the board horizontally. On the one hand, each dip only yields one sheet of wax, but your water bath strips the wax off the board.

With the vertical setups we've used, you get a sheet for each side of the board (or boards...Kirk Webster uses 3 boards ganged together), but it is time consuming to trim them off.

I didn't take any pics of your setup, but I have good stills and video of both Kirk and Dee's setup that I will get posted one of these days :)

Hope things are well with you,

deknow

Acebird · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2011, 12:27:01 pm »

Don, what do you use for the mold? The silicone molds I found so far are quite expensive.

Would you have a video of this process.

fat/beeman · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2011, 08:29:09 pm »

thanks deknow
I have a wax mill so you can make thick or thin sheets.by dipping in warm wax then running thru a embosser. I sell those machines.
Don
PM for more info(edit by buzzbee)

Acebird · « **Reply #5 on:** February 14, 2011, 08:48:02 am »

Is that with the die or tooling? Are you making the machines or just reselling them?

fat/beeman · « **Reply #6 on:** February 14, 2011, 06:36:00 pm »

they are a actual metal mill I have build locally. there adjustable.
Don

WPG · « **Reply #7 on:** February 15, 2011, 08:01:04 pm »

I guess you can't advertise your product :(, but I'm really curious what the different sizes look like.

Jim134 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 15, 2011, 08:40:07 pm »

Quote from: WPG on February 15, 2011, 08:01:04 pm

I guess you can't advertise your product :(, but I'm really curious what the different sizes look like.

Walter T. Kelley sell them all so look at pg.48 in 2011 catalog

http://kelleybees.com/CMS/CMSPage.aspx?redirect=n-3-c616fab0-127b-4469-8163-47e2c24f6f86

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

Acebird · « **Reply #9 on:** February 15, 2011, 09:27:52 pm »

It is hard to tell the physical size of these rollers but why would there be two prices for something that appears to be equal?

WPG · « **Reply #10 on:** February 16, 2011, 12:00:38 am »

I thought the ones FatBeeman was having made might look different.
I like to see the little details.

Speaking of details A-bird.

Look closely at the photo of the roller mills.
The one in front is the embossing mill, the shiney one in back is the sheet mill or pre-roller. It's like a sheet metal roller, it's smooth and alot cheaper to make than the embossing roller.

Acebird · « **Reply #11 on:** February 16, 2011, 09:52:55 am »

Quote

The one in front is the embossing mill, the shiney one in back is the sheet mill or pre-roller. It's like a sheet metal roller, it's smooth and alot cheaper to make than the embossing roller.

They show the same photo with two prices $2500 and $1300. So do you get just the embossing die for 2500 or both. If it is one or the other it suggest the embossing dies are 1200 a set.

I have built a lot of rotary die stations in the past so I was just wondering.

fat/beeman · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2011, 10:24:37 pm »

acebird
if you can make roller or mills for me I would be interested in several. the man making mine is slow to deliver and if you can beat the price might be interested in maybe 10
Don

beemaster · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2011, 10:34:54 pm »

DON:

Your advertising STOPS NOW - I know you are thick headed, but you have been told too many times. I (we) appreciate your experience and knowledge but you need to stop the selling in every post you do here. This is the last warning. We see any more prices for tools, equipment, bees, classes and instructions or anything from you - your account will be terminated on the spot. Please understand, enough is enough.

deknow · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2011, 01:17:08 am »

...as I said, I don't have any photos of Don's unique method. I just uploaded a bunch of stills from both Kirk Webster and Dee Lusby's setups that should be instructive. The mill closeups are from Dee's 4.9mm mill, which has fairly high cell walls (the hexagonal "valleys" between the protrusions on the mill).
The gallery is here (Kirk is first, but other than that it's not in order yet, but I will sequence it and add captions eventually...I also have video footage of both setups):
https://picasaweb.google.com/Dean.Ramona/FoundationMakingAndMills
also some from Dee at this gallery:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Dean.Ramona/Uploadconferencephotos

deknow

Acebird · « **Reply #15 on:** February 18, 2011, 10:46:27 am »

Quote

We see any more prices for tools

In all fairness I posted the prices from the link of the photo that Jim posted. I don't think he should be reprimanded for something I did.

deknow, thanks for the photos.

On Kirk's equipment he has a PVC troth on top of the embossing station. Is that for a soapy release or some other purpose?

Dee's equipment looks a little small in diameter. How critical is it that the thickness of the foundation remains constant? With Dee's equipment I would expect the foundation to be a little thicker in the center of the rolls due to bending.

I suspect that both of these operations are small time? The big operations must have this all in a line with motor driven embossing machines and die cutters trimming the waste and sheeting it off from a roll.

BlueBee · « **Reply #16 on:** February 18, 2011, 11:05:53 am »

Ace, without talking about prices, a person, or a product, how does a manufacturer make an embossing die? I have no experience with such things and don’t plan to make or use such a thing. I’m just curious how they would be made. I like those TV shows like "How it's made" after all :) I’m curious by nature. Do you make a mold with a CNC and than die cast into the mold to get the embossing?

Acebird · « **Reply #17 on:** February 18, 2011, 11:34:38 am »

There are two methods that I know of. Both are specialized machines costing in the 100,000 dollar range.

One is CNC where you mill away the material from a solid roll (usually) to get the impression you want. In the case of dies they would be heat treated to harden the die surface. I am not sure if the embossing rolls in the photos are hardened or not.

The second process is EDM (electronic discharge machine). In this case you mill the reverse impression into an electrode (some form of carbon). The only one I have seen is in plate form. After the electrode is made it is put into this specialized EDM machine that will pass the plate under a solid roll that turns at the surface speed of the plate back and forth. The electronic discharge (like a spark plug) will erode the metal away in very tiny increments.

I can see where you could use a standard EDM machine to make these embossers where the electrode is just one cell but it would take a heck of a long time. If it took 5 or 10 minutes to burn one cell you can get a feel for how long it would take to make one die. No matter what process is used the cost is per cell so a large diameter roll is much more than a smaller roll by a factor of pi/in dia (a little over 3).

deknow · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2011, 01:37:50 pm »

foundation mills predate cnc _and_ edm. i've not heard of anyone using either method to make foundation mills (cnc is how i would approach things today....you would burn through a lot of electrodes trying to do this with edm).

but, alas, both Kirk and Dee are commercial, so I can't imagine that you would be interested in how they approach things.

deknow

hardwood · « **Reply #19 on:** February 19, 2011, 10:14:31 pm »

:lau:

Acebird · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2011, 03:29:50 pm »

Quote

you would burn through a lot of electrodes trying to do this with edm).

http://www.rotometrics.com/roto/WebContent.nsf/ProdLookup/8E41F44EDDA6534086257444006FC59A?openDocument&dl=en

There is so much for you to learn. The more populated the pattern the less you have to burn.

For specialty conductive adhesives I had these dies burned to as much as .180 blade heighth.

WPG · « **Reply #21 on:** February 21, 2011, 12:37:41 am »

Deknow,

Great pics.

Do you know what metal the embossing rollers are?

The protrusions on Dee's mill look like a bunch of 1/2 of little cubes stuck on with one corner sticking up and the valleys going up & down around them. I thought they would be flatter protrusions.

Maybe my eyes playing tricks on me.

Acebird · « **Reply #22 on:** February 21, 2011, 12:26:33 pm »

Cubes? :?

They have to be pyramids with a grove around the outside. The top and bottom embosser have to be aligned correctly (like meshing gears) in order to prevent variations in web thickness.

Jim134 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 21, 2011, 02:19:06 pm »

Quote from: WPG on February 21, 2011, 12:37:41 am

Deknow,

Great pics.

Do you know what metal the embossing rollers are?

The protrusions on Dee's mill look like a bunch of 1/2 of little cubes stuck on with one corner sticking up and the valleys going up & down around them. I thought they would be flatter protrusions.

Maybe my eyes playing tricks on me.

I see little cubes but I know it is not.

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

WPG · « **Reply #24 on:** February 22, 2011, 07:50:50 pm »

Thanks Jim

Quote from: Acebird on February 20, 2011, 03:29:50 pm

There is so much for you to learn. The more populated the pattern the less you have to burn.

That sounds like:
The more post holes I have to dig, the less dirt I have to move.
Yes, teach me how, oh learned one.

Quote from: Acebird link=topic=31272

They have to be pyramids with groves around the outside...

What are you talking about?
All the pyramids in South America and Egypt that I ever heard of are 4-sided with the bottom edges all on the same plane.

Are you saying all parts of the grooves are equi-distant from the center of the roller?

I know the rollers have to be syncronized so the points don't hit each other.

Acebird · « **Reply #25 on:** February 23, 2011, 09:05:14 am »

A pyramid (from Greek "πυραμίς" – pyramis[1]) is a structure where the outer surfaces are triangular and converge at a point. The base of a pyramid can be trilateral, quadrilateral, or any polygon shape,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid

You have to a least know the basics.

WPG · « **Reply #26 on:** February 23, 2011, 06:16:31 pm »

Quote from: Acebird on February 23, 2011, 09:05:14 am

You have to a least know the basics.

Yep, sure does help.
I knew the basics(and just possibly a little more) before you were born.
Since you haven't used a wax embossing mill, can't even recognise one in a picture, are in your first year with one hive I would appreciate you not lecturing the rest of us.

You didn't answer the important question. Are you saying all parts of the grooves are equi-distant from the center of the roller?

Please look at those closeup pictures again. Those protrusions are not pyramids.
The sides are not triangles.
They appear to be square, but are most likely diamond shaped.

You may have talents, training and experience that will be of great help on the forums and to the bee industry, but your observation and analytical skills need improvement.

I'm continually working on mine, as well as patience and tolerance.
Sometimes with success, sometimes not.

I'm on these forums to learn.

Since there are more people here(that I can count on my fingers & toes), that have more knowledge, experience and expertice than I, it is worth wading thru the garden fertilizer.

Robo · « **Reply #27 on:** February 23, 2011, 07:27:50 pm »

WPG, you are correct. The best way to describe them is looking down the corner of a cube. This is what gives the 'y' and 'inverted y' in the bottom of the cells that Michael Housel refers to when positioning combs.

Here is a good article, written by Dee, about Housel Positioning.

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ed-dee-lusby/more-on-small-cell-foundation-for-mite-control/housel-positioning-how-i-view-its-importance-to-beekeeping/

Acebird · « **Reply #28 on:** February 23, 2011, 08:19:27 pm »

Quote

You didn't answer the important question. Are you saying all parts of the grooves are equi-distant from the center of the roller?

No but I am not sure you know what you are asking.

Quote

WPG, you are correct. The best way to describe them is looking down the corner of a cube. This is what gives the 'y' and 'inverted y' in the bottom of the cells that Michael Housel refers to when positioning combs.

Whew, what a lot of bunk. On one side of the frame the Y will be oriented one way and on the other side the Y will be the other. Once the bees use the foundation and reuse the comb it will be more like a dome on the inside. Who cares? I am sure the bees don’t. I don’t know for a fact but my guess is the bees use the Y formation because it uses less wax than any other geometry. They are in a hurry to creater cells with the least amount of resources.

Jim134 · « **Reply #29 on:** February 23, 2011, 08:22:24 pm »

Robo ......

I have been doing this for years but on top of the frames so I can see it.

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

Jim134 · « **Reply #30 on:** February 23, 2011, 08:34:56 pm »

Quote from: Acebird on February 23, 2011, 08:19:27 pm

Who cares? I am sure the bees don’t.

:roll: Are you sure the bee don't :?

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

Acebird · « **Reply #31 on:** February 23, 2011, 08:42:48 pm »

Quote

Are you sure the bee don't

That part I am sure. I would bet if you made foundation as a circle instead of a hexagon they would still use it. All the drone cells that I have seen are perfect circles. The issue is the wax consumption.

Robo · « **Reply #32 on:** February 23, 2011, 09:19:39 pm »

Here ya go Jim....

Jim134 · « **Reply #33 on:** February 23, 2011, 10:11:14 pm »

Quote from: Robo on February 23, 2011, 09:19:39 pm

Here ya go Jim....

Robo.......

Like this

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

deknow · « **Reply #34 on:** February 23, 2011, 11:53:51 pm »

Quote from: Acebird on February 23, 2011, 08:19:27 pm

I am sure the bees don’t.

I am sure that you don't know enough to make that statement.

I don't know if the bees care (many claim they do), but the fact is, when the bees build a natural broodnest (with no foundation, guides, etc), they tend keep the comb orientation consistent towards the middle. The idea that comb could be reversed or moved is a rather new one in the history of bees. Why anyone would assume that something the bees do consistently "doesn't matter to the bees" is beyond me.

deknow

WPG · « **Reply #35 on:** February 24, 2011, 02:37:59 am »

Quote from: Acebird on February 23, 2011, 08:19:27 pm

Quote
You didn't answer the important question. Are you saying all parts of the grooves are equi-distant from the center of the roller?

No but I am not sure you know what you are asking.

I know exactly what I'm asking.
Please give a full answer.

Quote

Whew, what a lot of bunk.

Are you refering to Dee Lusby's report?

I'd love to see you back her in a corner with your obnoxious silly assertions.
She'd wipe her boots on you.

No, I suppose she really wouldn't.
She has better things to do.
She knows what she knows by actually doing.
She knows what it takes to work bees successfully.
She knows what it takes to work hundreds of hives of bees successfully.
Personally.

Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder, Acebird?