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Author Topic: They Died  (Read 1811 times)

Offline Bobbee

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They Died
« on: October 27, 2020, 01:34:16 pm »
Yesterday was a sad day for me.I went out to the hives only to find 50 or so dead bees at the bottom of one hive and perhaps a dozen at the bottom of the other.They were alive two or three weeks ago but as of yesterday no.
I spent yesterday thinking what went wrong and I believe I have figured it out, moisture. British Columbia has a fairly moist climate and I think the hives did not have enough ventilation and the bees could not deal with the colder weather that came at the end of September. There were fair bit  of food stores in the top deep the bottom deep was empty.Along with the capped honey there were frames of Uncapped nectar an although I am a new beekeeper and could be wrong I am thinking that there was too much for this time of year.The uncapped nectar is what makes me think the main problem was moisture.Well the uncapped nectar/honey and the mold or mildew on the empty combs.I wish I knew for sure what went wrong and I will be trying again next year but right now all I can say is this has kind of taken the wind out of my sails.

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: They Died
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2020, 02:53:35 pm »
If you found only 12 to 50 dead bees in the hive when 3 weeks age the hive had a normal adult population, the cause of death was probably a heavy varroa/virus load.  When the varroa population is large the colony will abscond from the hive in an attempt to leave a large part of the mites in brood.

Offline FloridaGardener

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Re: They Died
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2020, 03:41:32 pm »
Awww, I'm sorry.  :(
Colonies lost are always sad, the first few are the worst.  Maybe it will help to look at it this way: 
You are already way ahead from where you were last year because you have
1 - equipment
2- built out comb
3- stores in the comb
4- much more knowledge than you had last year!

If it were me, I would freeze that comb asap for 48 hours - it'll give a massive boom to your next colony.
As said in the previous post, cut open the brood and look for mites.

Consider getting two hives next year, so if one gets weak, you can move a frame of capped brood over and start again.

A moisture quilt is easy to make from a pine 1x4. Cedar chips for the inside can be bought at Petsmart. 
It seems to me some colonies are "sweatier," just like some colonies make waaaay more propolis.  When the woodware starts to show a little mildew, I will open up the top vent or add an Imirie shim with a gap.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: They Died
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2020, 05:29:24 pm »
Sorry about your bees.   :sad:

A moisture quilt is easy to make from a pine 1x4. Cedar chips for the inside can be bought at Petsmart. 
It seems to me some colonies are "sweatier," just like some colonies make waaaay more propolis.  When the woodware starts to show a little mildew, I will open up the top vent or add an Imirie shim with a gap.

I have found this to be the case as well, I have one colony who has moisture on their cover all year, no matter what I do, and they usually need their moisture quilt changed once every month or two during the winter.  I also live in an extremely humid climate, and I use moisture quilts on all my hives during the winter season.  I made mine from some shallows I had lying around.  I drilled some vent holes, and screened the box with #8 hardware cloth halfway up to leave room for sugar bricks if I need to add any.  I've been really happy with them. 
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Offline beesnweeds

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Re: They Died
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2020, 09:00:13 pm »
  Sorry you lost your hive.  A simple step you can take to help keep moisture from dripping down on the bees is to make sure the hive is slightly tipped forward so water drips out the front of the hive.  You have drawn comb now and that's a big plus.  Read lots a books and good luck next year.

  Also AR Beekeeper is correct, the loss is probably mite/virus related.
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Offline Bob Wilson

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Re: They Died
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2020, 11:44:37 pm »
Now is the time to make a few swarm boxes... and dream of luring many hives come spring. Good luck.

Offline Bobbee

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Re: They Died
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2020, 06:43:55 pm »
Ty all for your commiseration and advice. I actually did start with two hives the fact that they left or died within the same time frame suggests to me it was for the same reason.

Some observations of the empty hives   are
1; 50 or so dead bees in one perhaps a dozen in the other.the deaths seemed recent as the bees had not dried up at all.
2; Some frames still had capped brood. and I observed three bees that died in the process of emerging.
3;The frames that contained brood or honey were clean, empty comb had mold/mildew on the surface and there was condensation on the plastic frames (most frames were wood a few plastic frames came with the nucs)
The hives themselves were almost identical and were/are composed of,hive cover inner hive cover and two deeps.The only real difference was one had a solid bottom board and the other screened with a rear pullout. To my regret I did not choose a notched inner cover and  the only ventilation was the bottom entrance.
( this is something I will change next year).
Speaking of next year I have about 8 quarts or so of honey and although I love the taste of this honey I don't 'need' it. I am thinking of saving it and giving it undiluted to next year's bees.There will be no diseases in it that they wont be subject to locally every year and it will give a big boost to the new colony in the spring not to need to dry out 1 to 1 sugar water.
At least that is what I'm thinking.
As you may be able to tell I like to figure things out I am forever asking Why,mainly because I do not like making the same mistakes twice especially when there are so many new mistakes to make next year. :cheesy: So any and all constructive criticism is not only welcome but encouraged.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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They Died
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2020, 07:11:48 pm »
Can you post some pictures of the brood combs?  Your #2 above is a 99.9 indication of being overwhelmed by spiked varroa mite infestation. 

Saddened to say, but this is a very typical Fall varroa hive crash type scenario.  The real world varroa test in the North, in BC, is if you had a terminal level mite problem you know for certain in October because the hive is dead.  You will know you had damaging level mite problem when the hive is dead in February.  If they make it to April, they may still have been weakened by mites but will likely survive the summer and will crash the following September/October.

What did you do for mite checks and treatments at about the middle of August, Au 15-20?

Get some sweezers.  Go picking at the capped brood cells. Carefully open the caps, grab the head and slide the bee out.  Look on the butt of the bee and in the bottom of the cells for mites.  (Provides definitive confirmation)
Take a brood comb.  With a bright light or the sun at your back.  Tip the top bar of the frame away from you to look at the top wall of the brood cells. Do you see specs of saltlike grains stuck to the top walls?  That would be mite fras, mite poop.  (Provides definitive confirmation)
Have a close look through whatever dead bees pile is on the ground or in the bottom of the hive. Look at the wings, specifically look for thin wrinkled and/or warped wings. This symptom is named and known as deformed wing virus, look for it in the dead bees and also in the live bees in your other hives. (Provides definitive confirmation).  Anytime you see DWV in the bees, treat the colony immediately. Although when DWV is present significant damage has already been done, means it is usually too late to save them. They are pretty much the walking dead when you see DWV.

Also, somewhere on here at BM we have a link of a presentation I made up from 15th members hive here a couple years ago.  May be worth looking that up as a reference.

Finally, be careful with moisture ventilation advice and types of equipment.  Some , alot actually, is just not applicable for use as you go North.  Many of those pillow box type setups end at stressing and killing more hives rather than helping them.  A hive that is struggling with moisture or ventilation is quite simply put - sick or not strong enough for the space they are in. Diagnose and treat their ailments or/and reduce space, reduce hive size.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 03:14:12 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline yes2matt

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Re: They Died
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2020, 07:23:52 pm »
Ty all for your commiseration and advice. I actually did start with two hives the fact that they left or died within the same time frame suggests to me it was for the same reason.

Some observations of the empty hives   are
1; 50 or so dead bees in one perhaps a dozen in the other.the deaths seemed recent as the bees had not dried up at all.
2; Some frames still had capped brood. and I observed three bees that died in the process of emerging.
3;The frames that contained brood or honey were clean, empty comb had mold/mildew on the surface and there was condensation on the plastic frames (most frames were wood a few plastic frames came with the nucs)
The hives themselves were almost identical and were/are composed of,hive cover inner hive cover and two deeps.The only real difference was one had a solid bottom board and the other screened with a rear pullout. To my regret I did not choose a notched inner cover and  the only ventilation was the bottom entrance.
( this is something I will change next year).
Speaking of next year I have about 8 quarts or so of honey and although I love the taste of this honey I don't 'need' it. I am thinking of saving it and giving it undiluted to next year's bees.There will be no diseases in it that they wont be subject to locally every year and it will give a big boost to the new colony in the spring not to need to dry out 1 to 1 sugar water.
At least that is what I'm thinking.
As you may be able to tell I like to figure things out I am forever asking Why,mainly because I do not like making the same mistakes twice especially when there are so many new mistakes to make next year. :cheesy: So any and all constructive criticism is not only welcome but encouraged.

Some will disagree, but if I pull honey off a colony, especially a dead-out, it doesn't go back on. I might think it is clean, but sugar syrup I know is clean.

Bees are masters of ventilation and air-flow. They only need the entrance hole. Save your screen money and spend it on wood for swarm traps. If there is observable condensation in the hive, make sure you're not trapping water in the bottom board by having a negative slant, make sure your roof is not leaking. Or it might just be the result of abandoned open nectar being warmed and cooled with the air temps.  and also, get those hives in as close to full sunshine as possible.

If you make your swarm trap with a drawn comb in the middle and blanks beside, the comb/scent attracts the swarm and they'll draw the rest of the combs straight (usually, ha!).  So. Get those brood combs cycled thru the freezer, they're very valuable.

Offline paus

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Re: They Died
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2020, 08:58:43 pm »
I have never used the DSBB for ventilation but in my climate that is just a bonus.  I use an oil pan between the screens, for the near elimination of SHB.  I do not have, any mold on the frames, any bearding in hot weather, and with the rare exception do I see a SHB.  The only place I see SHB is in the oil pan,  if your thinker is off, the  oil can be messy, yessss I did that, I lifted a hive without removing the oil pan.  The pan is removed through the door in the back of the DSBB.  I change the cooking oil and clean out the pan and the bees never know I am there. There is a need for checking the oil pan but this only takes a few seconds unless the oil pan needs changing or adding oil. This is probably not for the larger bee keepers, but I sure like it.  I really like water better with the addition of a drop or two of something that reduces the surface tension but this makes it evaporate faster. and it requires at least every week service in my climate.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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They Died
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2020, 11:09:59 pm »
Agree with yes2matt.  A hive that is not putting on weight when fed, given decent weather conditions, means something is wrong.  In most cases, in my experience, when a hive is not taking down the feed it is because there is no queen present.  There may be a bunch of bees and it looks busy in there, but when there is no queen the bees go aimless and lose purpose.  They laze around.  Case and point example. Feeding in September.  Two identical hives on the same pallet side by side. Same age colonies, both from June splits, sister queens. One hive taking down the syrup well. The next door hive took a bunch down and then stalled.  Stayed light, not taking any more syrup for days while the next door hive keep chugging it down.  After 5 days I went in to see what was going on. Nice beautiful queen spread out dead on the bottom board.  Why? No way of knowing, looks like she she up and died from whatever. No signs of stress, nothing weird going on with the combs and brood she had going.  Sometimes it happens.   Anyways, the point being that if a hive is light and is not taking the feed, something is wrong so go digging to find out what.

On ventilation, nothing special, and nothing is best. The bees take care of it. Just tilt the hive slightly forward so any condensation on the walls that drips to the bottom board will ultimately flow and drain out the entrance.  That's it.  Nothing else.  Keep in mind and remember that in northern winters the bees will be confined by weather for weeks to months on end. And when they do get out it is a frozen landscape.  If all the moisture is vented away, where will they get water to drink when they thirst? Some condensation within the hive is a good thing. Just ensure that too much of with will drain away. Otherwise let the bees manage it themselves.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 03:21:47 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Bobbee

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Re: They Died
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2020, 01:23:40 am »
Your replies are giving me a great deal to think about. I will head over to the hives and see what I can do about genning some pictures and check for mites.As far as putting frames in the freezer the freezers I have access to don't have room.Could I put the frames in a plastic bag and fill it with CO2 to kill any eggs?
"TheHoneyPump" I think you may be right about varroa.I do believe that moisture played a role but the more I think about it the more I think varroa was the main cause.I needed to treat at the start of August when the hives had been going for 2 months or perhaps even sooner. I purchased two local 5 frame nucs June first and was told they were varroa free.
I did not treat until late August. I don't drive anymore and given the events of this past summer I was very reluctant to take public transit.As a result I was not able to get to my bees in order to feed and check for varroa as often as I had planned to.
My mistakes when I add them up are a little embarrassing, Insufficient number of mite checks the worst of them.If I had done more to monitor the mite load I would have known  known to do something.
Step one is to put the CO2  tester back in the box and use the more proven alcohol wash.
 

 

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