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Author Topic: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)  (Read 4911 times)

Offline yes2matt

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"Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« on: October 08, 2020, 04:01:04 am »
This is from the weakest hive in the apiary. Five frames of brood, almost no nectar stores, good pollen stores. Brood pattern is solid but they have a lot of drobe comb in patches and obviously she's skipping those now. They have a "mann lake" feeder on top but this hive hasn't found it (and I'm askeered to put in a scent).

Anyway, look here at this brood. I see this sort of thing a lot and I don't know quite what to make of it. Referring to the three worker pupae in the center of the pic: I think they've been uncapped from outside and they're dead in the cell. Then when I dug one out you can see they have some tiny brown specks on them. What's that about? Some day I'll have a microscope setup maybe but surely yall have seen this. 

I think they look like baby mites, maybe what they call the "protonymph" stage. In which case it's an "Oh no! Oh yes!" situation -- oh no because that's a lot of mites, oh yes, because apparently the bees think so too and they're doing something about it.

Your observations welcome. ;)

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Offline iddee

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2020, 05:34:43 am »
Looks like mite overload to me.. A good dose of OAV might help tremendously. One weekly for 3 treatments.
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2020, 07:46:25 am »
Do you treat your bees?
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline yes2matt

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2020, 08:46:02 am »
Do you treat your bees?
Haven't for ...5? Years. Maybe six.

Might bee time to start.

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Online Ben Framed

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2020, 09:02:25 am »
Do you treat your bees?
Haven't for ...5? Years. Maybe six.

Might bee time to start.

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Thanks Matt. There are those who do not treat but is seems that approach is like trying to paddle upriver in a equally forceful current. I have been here for 2 1/2 years and it seems the results reached in most cases of non treating gradually end up in this way. Some do not like the idea of. chemicals, you can always treat organically as pointed out by Iddee.  Organically is a big word. I personally see no disgrace in going this route. On the contrary. At least we have effective natural options. Thats my opinion anyway. Wishing you the best.


Organically

adverb
1.
from or in connection with living matter.
"organically enriched soil"
2.
without the use of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, or other artificial chemicals.

2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2020, 03:13:28 am »
The male mite is 1/3rd the size of the female. 
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2020, 10:58:44 am »
The very small brown specks on the pupa are probably debris from the bees uncapping the cell, or flakes from the cell walls.

Offline FloridaGardener

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2020, 03:47:57 pm »
If it were me....
I'd take a clear pic on hi-res with my phone, then zoom in on the speck and see what it is, or if it has legs.

I don't bother with magnifying lenses anymore.  The phone cam is so much better quality, and has flash if I need it.


Offline yes2matt

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2020, 04:24:39 pm »
The male mite is 1/3rd the size of the female.
I thought of that. But at Beefest 2019 we spotted some male mites and they were grey/translucent. Definitely not the brown of these.
The very small brown specks on the pupa are probably debris from the bees uncapping the cell, or flakes from the cell walls.
Totally a possibility. I could have gotten a better pic even with my phone. I didn't double check the focus. I also could have sampled those other cells. Next time!
If it were me....
I'd take a clear pic on hi-res with my phone, then zoom in on the speck and see what it is, or if it has legs.

I don't bother with magnifying lenses anymore.  The phone cam is so much better quality, and has flash if I need it.
Five kids being homeschooled so a microscope is in our future anyway. ;) may as well get some extra mileage. I would like a digital one for purposes of capturing images to share.

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Offline beesonhay465

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2020, 10:14:52 am »
if no treatment works thats great and more natural. however i consider bees to be livestock and should be cared for as such. I have used the shop towel saturated with oa and glycerine. this placed on the brood chamber will eventually be chewed up and removed from the hive . in the process the treatment is distributed throughout the hive for an extended time ,supposedly for as much a month. :beemaster:

Online Michael Bush

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2020, 02:34:23 pm »
Those specs don't look big enough for mites.  The lower stages of the Varroa mites are white and not purplish brown like adults.  For each foundress there is one male (the first egg that is laid) and then another female egg every 32-36 hours or so.  So at the end when they emerge there are eight or nine female mites.  But of these only one or two make it to maturity and get mated and only those are viable.
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Offline yes2matt

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2020, 07:00:40 pm »
I finally got back into the hive today. I did sugar rolls on this colony and the one next to it. This one had a single mite, and a speck of "maybe" and the one beside it had five mites in samples of 300.

So they're not over run now, although they might have been three weeks ago.

This colony had some uncapped worker pupae like before but not as many. I used a little twig to pull four of them out of the cell. Two had a couple specks like my first picture, one was clean, and the last one looks like this.

Holy camoly what is that?
They are red-brown, about the color of an adult mite. They are all about the same size. They are cylindrical, and it looks like three segments maybe? And shiny outside. Really very tiny and I didn't try to smush or cut one open.

Like turds.
Or egg sacs.

My partner there at the farm thinks he saw one move. I looked real close for quite a while and didn't see movement.

Whatcha think now?

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Offline The15thMember

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2020, 09:51:48 pm »
I finally got back into the hive today. I did sugar rolls on this colony and the one next to it. This one had a single mite, and a speck of "maybe" and the one beside it had five mites in samples of 300.

So they're not over run now, although they might have been three weeks ago.

This colony had some uncapped worker pupae like before but not as many. I used a little twig to pull four of them out of the cell. Two had a couple specks like my first picture, one was clean, and the last one looks like this.

Holy camoly what is that?
They are red-brown, about the color of an adult mite. They are all about the same size. They are cylindrical, and it looks like three segments maybe? And shiny outside. Really very tiny and I didn't try to smush or cut one open.

Like turds.
Or egg sacs.

My partner there at the farm thinks he saw one move. I looked real close for quite a while and didn't see movement.

Whatcha think now?

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Okay, I totally see this sometimes on drone pupae when I uncap them.  I can confirm that whatever this is, it is not alive.  I have been wondering exactly what it is too though.  It almost looks like really tiny waxworm frass, but it's too small to be that. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2020, 10:37:17 pm »
Wow.  That is awesome.  Eggs (or fras) from something, obviously.
Two possibilities I can think of.  One much more sinister than the other.
- wax moth eggs
- small hive beetle eggs
- .... <insert here> eggs

Any remote possibility of getting a few of those under a microscope or high xpower camera to see the detail of the egg?


When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Brian MCquilkin

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2020, 02:16:47 pm »
Awesome  pic not sure what they are but I'm certain not varroa.  In my experience small hive beetles and wax moth are more white to creamy color.
Hope someone can identify these, very interesting.
Despite my efforts the bees are doing great

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2020, 04:00:05 pm »


Pic of small hive beetle eggs.

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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2020, 04:48:15 pm »


Dead varroa on the thorax, chest.  Just wanted to show the color of a dead mite.

The pic looks to be some sort of bug dropping, as already stated, maybe ants.  Just guessing.

Van
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2020, 07:11:07 pm »
Pic of debris located on my bottom board after treatment with Oxalic acid vapor.  The white stuff is diatomaceous earth.  There are hundreds of dead mites, bee parts, wax, pollen but also tiny lil brown specs as in the topic.  I had to reduce the resolution of the photo to post on BeeMaster so the lil brown specs may not show up very well, but they are scattered in the photo.

I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2020, 07:38:40 pm »
Good pictures Mr Van.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: "Baby mites" on worker brood (???)
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2020, 11:01:15 am »
Wow.  That is awesome.  Eggs (or fras) from something, obviously.
Two possibilities I can think of.  One much more sinister than the other.
- wax moth eggs
- small hive beetle eggs
- .... <insert here> eggs

Any remote possibility of getting a few of those under a microscope or high xpower camera to see the detail of the egg?





Mr HP I am wondering about this also. Does anyone have pictures of wax moth eggs or frass? As we know mite frass is  white color little specks so we know it is not that, and now thanks to Mr Vans clear picture, we know it is not Beetle eggs. Another  possibility, does anyone have pictures of beetle frass? I am leaning more to some type frass, the reason, crickets have a similar looking frass. (anyone else here ever fish with crickets)?  :smile:

But in fairness, looking at the OP the speck on the larvae does look like a mite. Perhaps that was a mite in the picture of the larva back in the OP?
It's the picture in post reply #11 that leads me to the frass way of thinking.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 11:44:58 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.