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Author Topic: Help needed. Colony has dwindled  (Read 3434 times)

Offline rgennaro

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Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« on: September 11, 2020, 08:17:13 pm »
Hi everybody

today I went to remove the honey supers from my hive and they were reasonably full. I inspected the brood chamber (I admit to have neglected my inspections lately for various reasons) and it was basically empty! Very little honey/nectar, some pollen, almost no brood. The brood was mostly larva, some capped though it looked like drone brood. There were 2 queen cells, one open and one capped. In July this hive was massive, now it has dwindled to few bees.

Given that it's mid-september and I am in upstate NY what are my options?

My plan is to :
-- go back in tomorrow and put the honey in the brood chamber, replacing the empty frames.
-- Double check everything and make sure there is no queen or LW
-- Order a new queen which I should get by Monday

I suspect it's all a losing proposition at this point, but I want to give the girls a chance. Any other possible strategies?

Thanks

R

Offline .30WCF

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2020, 08:32:19 pm »
Any other hives to combine them with.


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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2020, 08:42:54 pm »
Diagnosis first. -> WHY <- did the hive crash. 
Know that first before putting any resources to it OR to use the bees or equipment from it in any other hive.
The number one cause of a crash at this time of year is high varroa mite.  Parasitic mite syndrome (PSM).  Google that so you know what to be looking for as you examine the combs more closely.
The number two cause of a crash at this time of year is a failed supercedure a month ago. Since you have larvae present, that is not the case.
That is based on what you shared so far.  There are other causes, too time consuming to list them all off.  Show us some pictures and that may lead in specific directions.  For example another possibility is EFB, which you can read over here at:  https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=54019.0;all

Next is the experienced advice:  "Take your losses in the Fall".  Which basically means, NO to your plan. The hive as described is likely well beyond recovery this late in the year. Even if you requeen, there will not be any appreciable amount of new bees until end of October.  And there would not be many as queens are really slowed at this time.  Just shake it out and put the equipment away. Come back in the spring and try again.  Ensure you know the cause and understand what to do about it, because the equipment may need treatment before it can be used again. If you have other hives that the bees will migrate to, the bees may need to be treated or the other hives will suffer the same fate.

Do you have other hives or just the one?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 09:08:14 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline rgennaro

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2020, 09:17:02 pm »
Thanks for the advice. No other hive to combine with, this is my only hive.

I will go back tomorrow and try to figure out what happened. I suspect high mite count. I was going to treat now, but I guess I should have treated earlier. I'll see if I can take pictures.

If I shake the bees and take the equipment in should I save the honey in the frames for next year? Or start from scratch?

thanks
Rosario

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2020, 11:29:01 pm »
OK, if only one hive and you decide to go for the shake out. Prepare a pail or tub of warm soapy water.  Shake the bees off into that. It is over quick for them and prevents whatever they may have from spreading/migrating to some other nearby hive (neighbour). 

Honey .... take / extract everything you want for you. Spring brings with it a renewed start, a new season, and fresh nectars. The only thing to leave would be pollen combs.  Put those and brood combs in a freezer for minimum 48 hours.  Then bag them sealed tight and store someplace cool and dark, until setting things up anew in the spring.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline rgennaro

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2020, 12:02:22 am »
Before giving an update on my situation, I want to thank THP for always being such a source of great helpful advice.

That said, I decided to go against his advice. Not because I think I know better, but because as a hobbyist with only one hive maybe my outlook is different. So I put the honey back in the main hive and ordered a new queen. My thought process was "if this fails what do I have to lose?" The honey (1 gallon maybe?) and the $60 to overnight a new queen. The bees would be dead either way.

Another reason I decided to try was that when I went back in, I realized the hive still had a lot of bees (more than one deep full for sure) and I didn't see any signs of disease or mite infestation. I am now beginning to think that the hive might have swarmed and the new queen didn't come back. This by the way happened to this hive last year as well.

I put the new queen in on Tuesday, and today the queen was out of the cell and walking around the hive. They have plenty of honey at this point and also pollen. The only problem is that the next 3 days low temperatures will hover around freezing, but it will warm up again next week. There is tons of goldenrod all over the place and I plan to feed them syrup and patties through October. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Now for the next question: I still need to treat this hive with OAV. How long should I wait since the re-queening?

Thank you all again

R

Offline cao

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2020, 12:39:36 am »
Now for the next question: I still need to treat this hive with OAV. How long should I wait since the re-queening?

Question.  Why would you need the OAV?  New queen with brood break should cause a drop in numbers of any mites that you might have.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2020, 12:58:36 am »
Best time for OAV, or any treatment type, is now within 5 days before she gets new brood on the go that gets near capping.
Imho - Brood break does not significantly reduce mite load.  What the break does is halt mite reproductive opportunity and also forces the mites to be on adult bees where they are exposed and susceptible to treatment.  The break will enhance the efficacy of treatment(s).
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2020, 08:18:20 am »
Not really a help for this situation but having a second hive allows for supporting a down hive, brood, eggs to grow QC etc.
Single hive bee keeping sometimes doesn't have easy options.
Also having a nuc of bees on hand doesn't hurt to support hives.

Offline rgennaro

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2020, 02:43:39 pm »
That?s a good point. I had always wondered why the suggestion is to keep at least 2 hives and this is an argument I didn?t think of.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2020, 02:14:38 am »
Best time for OAV, or any treatment type, is now within 5 days before she gets new brood on the go that gets near capping.
Imho - Brood break does not significantly reduce mite load.  What the break does is halt mite reproductive opportunity and also forces the mites to be on adult bees where they are exposed and susceptible to treatment.  The break will enhance the efficacy of treatment(s).

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Offline rgennaro

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2020, 11:05:10 pm »
An update on this situation: On Sept 19 I saw the queen out of the cage walking around the hive. I assumed she had been accepted. I treated the hive with OAV the following week (I think Sept 22). I left the hive alone until today: I went in and there was very little brood, I would say just one frame (both sides) on the top box and a little patch in one frame of the bottom box. More troubling: I could not find the queen (she was marked and I should have been able to find her). In the uncapped brood I saw very small larvae, but I could not see eggs. I estimate that there was a queen laying 7 days ago, if not closer to that. Fair amount of bees. What do I do? How do I know if it's a queen that has slowed down because of the time of year, or that the queen has gone missing? thanks.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2020, 01:47:04 am »
There are two possible scenarios.  1. laying workers, killed the queen after she had laid a few brood patches and they met on a frame.  2. both laying workers and raising of a new queen off of her first eggs.

Just doing some math on queen cell development. Per observation queen was out and laying Sept 19.  If the bees were desperate and still in emergency mode they would start QC(s) off of her first eggs. If those QCs were not detected and destroyed by the beekeeper, they will be brought full term.  Let's say she was out of the cage sometime before Sept 19.  Perhaps as early as 15.  Her first eggs 16/17.  Fast forward 15/16 days to an emerging virgin puts the calendar at Oct 1 to 3.  Virgin's first instinct is to kill rivals, including the existing queen. She kills the queen.  3.5 days later (Oct 3 to 6) all eggs are hatched into teeny tiny day old larvae. The beekeeper sees no eggs, no queen because is looking marked queen not expecting nor looking for a virgin queen, and small larvae.

What you describe lines up with this possible/probable scenario;  meaning queen may have been killed and there is a new virgin running around in there.  I suggest to go back in there in 2 to 3 days with this in mind and see what you can see.  If still no eggs then and no marked queen found, then be looking closely for a virgin queen.

If it is a LW scenario, they will kill the laying queen and that new virgin queen too - soon after she returns from a mating flight and lays a bit. There is only one fix for a LW situation. Termination.  I am bringing up the LW possibility as at the start of the thread you mentioned little brood and what was there looked like drone bullets.

Saddened to hear the update.  Hope that helps, in some way!


When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Bob Wilson

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2020, 08:21:24 am »
HoneyPump. I really appreciate how you experienced beeks help us learn to think through the things we observe, working out the situation and solutions. I understand how the virgin queen scenario could explain what is happening.

Offline rgennaro

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2020, 08:50:01 am »
Second that: again thank you for the clear explanation.

The queen was still in the cage on Sept 18. I was checking every day.

Unfortunately, you may be right on the LW. There is still some scattered capped drone brood all over the hive ... not a lot but still a bit :(

Offline rgennaro

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2020, 05:53:39 pm »
Two years keeping bees and I still make rookie mistakes :)

The marked queen is still there. I checked again today. First I saw eggs (first time I see eggs in my life -- I guess all you have to do is focus). Then I saw the queen. She has a very dark blue mark which was not that easy to spot.

Now for the really stupid part: I panicked yesterday and ordered another queen which is now sitting in the cage in my barn. What to do with her?

Offline Mamm7215

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2020, 06:17:31 pm »
See if you can find someone to donate a few frames of bees, or see if you have enough bees to start a small  nuc yourself.

Offline rgennaro

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2020, 07:48:02 pm »
that's not an option unfortunately as I have only one hive and it's not big enough to split it esp. this time of year. I called 2 local commercial beekeepers. They may take it ... what's the best way to keep her alive? Two of the attendants seem dead or not very responsive already ...

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2020, 08:13:10 pm »
That is great news!
For the spare, keep the cage out of the sun and out of drafts so the attendant bees can maintain a micro climate around her. For example wrap it loosely in a dry fuzzy cloth and keep in a warm place. Give them a very light drop smear of honey on the screen in the evening and a light drop smear of water in the morning, every day.
Optional:  and longer term, If your hive is two boxes, you can put a queen excluder between the boxes.  Have your loose queen in the bottom box and put the caged queen centred along top frame bars in the upper box, leaving her in the cage.   The bees will take care of her, feeding her through the screen.  If she gets out they will kill her though.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline rgennaro

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Re: Help needed. Colony has dwindled
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2020, 05:29:14 pm »
My colony died. They were still there last week but we had a very cold snap and I had not yet wrapped the hive. Today the hive was empty. I will look at it over the weekend. I guess I can put the frames in the freezer and reuse them next year.

I am sad but it was a good run. I overwintered them twice successfully and this year I harvested honey. I'll try again next year.