Too Late To Split? And How?

[PhilK]

G'day,

We have two hives in the same location (inner city Birsbane). Both are doing well - 1 deep brood box full of bees each, and one deep super almost full of honey each. We have another two empty 10 frame deep hive boxes and are considering splitting to make 4 hives of bees total and buying in 2 queens for the new colonies. Is it too late in the year to split? We should still have some warm weather for next month or so at least so I reckon it'd be OK but thought I'd ask.

We also only have two deep boxes, no nuc boxes. Should we get some nuc boxes to make the splits or can we use the deep brood boxes we have? 'How' to split is a question for another time, I've been doing a lot of reading and I am sure I'll also be doing some asking soon!

Cheers

[iddee]

I would add the two deep boxes and winter as double deeps with super. Then in the spring, I would set a deep off, divide the brood, and add queens. A double deep with super has many times better chance of surviving winter than just a single deep, especially a weak single deep.

[PhilK]

I would add the two deep boxes and winter as double deeps with super. Then in the spring, I would set a deep off, divide the brood, and add queens. A double deep with super has many times better chance of surviving winter than just a single deep, especially a weak single deep.

G'day and thanks for the advice,

Our winters are fairly mild (day time temps rarely lower than 18C) so I was under the impression over wintering bees in Brisbane is generally easy enough without too much prep.

So are you suggesting I add an empty 10 frame deep to both hives as a second brood box, with the honey super on top? Then in spring I can take those boxes and use them as a new hive?

[iddee]

That is what I am suggesting, but keep in mind we have temps down to -12 C. here in winter. We had a high of 0 C. here one day last week. Adjust your decision accordingly.

[PhilK]

Thanks for the info - that sounds like a good way to get a full deep box without them being too stressed defending a larger space against hive beetles etc. Will await some local replies as well. Cheers

[Honeycomb king]

What, at best will you achieve by splitting now?
  And what at worst will you achieve?
 Can you get queens?
 A strong hive through winter, even in Brisbane the days are still shorter no matter what the temp.  Brood rearing reduces with the shorter day length and starts to expand again as the days lengthen.  You mentioned how much honey your hives have, but not how much brood and pollen.
Then there are other options like split one hive and top the split up with a frame of brood and or pollen from the other.
Do you have a local beekeeper that could help out?  Some one who knows the local environment etc.
Ah so many questions, and so many ways to answer them. Good luck.let us know what you decide.
 I did 50 splits last week with queen cells, and another 50 queens still to go in during middle of February.  The same questions come into the equation. Number of bees.
Amount of brood
Amount of pollen.
Amount of stored honey
Nectar still flowing.
What is going to flower next and into the winter.
But before all of that.
What is our expected outcome .

[PhilK]

Thanks for the reply!

What, at best will you achieve by splitting now?

We have had a request to put two hives at another location - we would like four hives all together. If we can split and get them to strength within a month or so we would like to move them to their new location.

And what at worst will you achieve?

They don't build fast enough in time for winter? We still have at least a couple of months of pretty warm weather so I'm hoping that won't be an issue

Can you get queens?

Haven't actually looked into that, wanted to ask here about logistics first!

You mentioned how much honey your hives have, but not how much brood and pollen.

Good brood pattern particularly through the middle frames of the brood box, seems to be a qood amount of pollen and plenty coming in when watching the bees

Then there are other options like split one hive and top the split up with a frame of brood and or pollen from the other.

This seems like a good idea... could I essentially take a bit from each existing hive to make a third?

[Honeycomb king]

With out seeing your hives here is a suggestion.
1.Order a queen.
2. From hive A take a frame of honey, a frame of pollen and 3 frames of brood. (This is assuming that your hive has 8 + brood frames)
3. From hive b take 1 pollen frame and one brood frame and a honey frame (this honey frame could be taken later say next week or as needed.
4. Put all this together in your new hive body, add the queen and move it all to your new site.

NB the brood from hive A should be of varying ages, that is eggs, uncapped and capped. Mix it up so that there will be an even amount of new population coming through.The frame of brood from hive b should be sealed, brush the bees off it and place in the new hive, this is just so you don t have bees from both hives fighting, but it doesn't really matter as they will sort it out as you drive to your new location.
The new caged queen can go into hive A or your new hive, either way. Hive B will be a donor hive for a while, that is if hive A or hive C need more of anything whether it be honey, pollen, brood or bees etc.
Replace good worker comb frames into hive B, into position 3 and 6 or 7 in the brood box, this will encourage the queen to lay and replace as soon as possible.
Hive A will need more brood manipulation than that to push all the brood back together.
Once you order your queen expand you r brood nest as much as possible, that is give you queens plenty of space on good combs to lay.
Anyway read all that and send back any questions and then I'll add some more information.
Good luck.

[PhilK]

Thanks for the info - we don't have any drawn comb... we only have brand new frames with wax foundation.

I don't even really know how to get 'drawn comb'. I understand how to get stickies (extract a frame of honey and replace for the bees to clean and repair) but how do you get 'drawn comb'

[Honeycomb king]

A sticky that has been cleaned will do as drawn comb. Just don't use stickies in the split as stickies can draw robber bees to it and a new split is venerable as it will be in a chaotic state for a few days and have no guards etc etc.
Two strong hives that winter well is a lot easier to manage than 3 or 4 that are struggling. Happy to give advice as you go but It would perhaps be better to leave it until spring.

[Oldbeavo]

We have just split some nucs (5 frame) by taking a frame of brood from both A and B with bees, plus the bees shaken from a honey frame to get some field bees and uniting them with icing sugar.
The queen was added at the same time.
In addition a frame of honey, a new waxed frame and a feeder frame (2litre)
The nucs were shifted to some heliotrope to grow on.

[PhilK]

A sticky that has been cleaned will do as drawn comb.

I don't really understand this? Do you put the sticky in for a day and take it out again? When I went back in a few days after stickies had been returned they were already being used to store some honey... I imagine you'd need to be pretty quick to get them at the time when they're cleaned but not being used?

[iddee]

Put the stickies out in the yard and let the bees clean them. 2, maybe 3 days later, bring them in at night. You have drawn comb. Protect it from SHB and wax moth, and use it when needed.

[Wombat2]

Put the stickies out in the yard and let the bees clean them. 2, maybe 3 days later, bring them in at night. You have drawn comb. Protect it from SHB and wax moth, and use it when needed.

This action is illegal in Australia and encourages robbing by other hives as well as spreading disease

[iddee]

Just don't get caught.      

It causes robbing only during a dearth.

[PhilK]

Put the stickies out in the yard and let the bees clean them. 2, maybe 3 days later, bring them in at night. You have drawn comb. Protect it from SHB and wax moth, and use it when needed.

This action is illegal in Australia and encourages robbing by other hives as well as spreading disease

I thought that was the case! How do you get drawn comb then Wombat?

[cao]

Put the stickies out in the yard and let the bees clean them. 2, maybe 3 days later, bring them in at night. You have drawn comb. Protect it from SHB and wax moth, and use it when needed.

I find that the bees tear up the comb if left outside.  I put them back on the hive for a few days to a week.  They seem to due a nicer job of cleaning them up if they are on the hive.

[Wombat2]

I just rotate stickies after they have been through the extractor. Most are in good shape and the bees clean them up double quick - doesn't matter where they are put - brood box or honey supper the bees will prepare them for the use they want them for 

[Honeycomb king]

Phil. Put the stick in a place, say out on the side. It doesn't really matter if they have started to put a little bit of honey in to the frame and then you place it in the brood area, they will move the honey as they need to. The point was to just try not to use stickies on your split.
Oldbeavo, s method is the same. He used the resources from both hives, it works.
Sometimes we will make up neucs just as we go through hives taking a frame or to as required to prevent swarming etc, at the end of a day we have made up Several  new hives and kept 100 others doing what we want them to.

So have you decided to leave the split for spring?

[PhilK]

So have you decided to leave the split for spring?

Unsure at this stage, I thought we would be right but reading the replies has made me a bit unsure.. We may try and make a 3rd hive out of the two parent hives

[yantabulla]

Just to reinforce the point with the Aussies on this forum.  Please don't expose honey to robber bees.  It is irresponsible and illegal.

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/116978/Responsible-beekeeping-primefact1288.pdf

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/aboutus/about/legislation-acts/apiaries/compliance/exposing-honey-to-robber-bees

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/livestock/honey-bees/pests-diseases

[Richard M]

G'day,

We have two hives in the same location (inner city Birsbane). Both are doing well - 1 deep brood box full of bees each, and one deep super almost full of honey each. We have another two empty 10 frame deep hive boxes and are considering splitting to make 4 hives of bees total and buying in 2 queens for the new colonies. Is it too late in the year to split? We should still have some warm weather for next month or so at least so I reckon it'd be OK but thought I'd ask.

We also only have two deep boxes, no nuc boxes. Should we get some nuc boxes to make the splits or can we use the deep brood boxes we have? 'How' to split is a question for another time, I've been doing a lot of reading and I am sure I'll also be doing some asking soon!

Cheers

I did a split this time last year and they went OK AND I'm in Hobart; our summers are allegedly not that much warmer then your winters. :-)

You just have to feed em a bit to get them drawing comb and storing syrup. If you've already got stores and you're in Brisbane, you should be fine.