Author Topic: Cypress pine boxes and cleats (Read 10669 times)

Dave86 · « **on:** August 17, 2015, 08:05:36 pm »

Hi all

After much phoning sawmills and debating with my wife I have picked up 100 lineal metres of 250x25 cypress boards. I have started cutting it into 8 and 5 frame boxes. There is a little bit of weight difference but nothing I cannot handle.

I have also purchased a jet thicknesser to bring it down from the 25mm to 22mm, quite an easy process when you take your time and the finished product is unreal, the cypress is A grade and almost too good to make hives out of.

From here, with the supplier stating that obtaining the 250mm boards is hard in his area (just west of Cecil Plains in QLD) we have decided that the next order will be a 150mm and a 125mm board tongue and groove joined with a single dressed side for accurate joining. I will then be using a table saw the trim the joined boards to size and using the offcut as a handle on the boxes.

All the timber is relatively green so the joining will be done ASAP to allow the join to shrink together and become weather proof, with an average of 3% shrinkage on cypress this should work well. I am also thinking of using tightbond 3 glue at the joining stage to ensure it wont come apart.

At the current pricing I can make boxes for the following prices, this isn't including my time for cutting, thicknessing and rebating yet as I haven't worked out how much time that takes.

5 frame $10.50aud
8 frame $11.90aud
10 frame $12.60aud

I think by the time I have done all of the above to assembly stage a 8 frame box will cost between $15 and $17 a box, saving about $5aud a box on current hoop pine boxes at my local supplier. Aside from any disease issues I might face I would expect once painted or oiled(not sure which yet) to get at least 10-15 years or more from these boxes. With timber prices on the move upwards and the cost of commercial RTA gear also going up I see this as a real opportunity to save a few $$$.

The supplier has made it clear that even with all the extra work for them to plane and tongue and groove join that the wholesale price will be close to the $7/m mark and marginally cheaper if I order 3-400 l/m at a time, which will be the plan in the future as we are looking at commercial expansion over the next 2-3 years.

Dave

Eric Bosworth · « **Reply #1 on:** August 17, 2015, 09:22:22 pm »

Is that including frames?

Dave86 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 17, 2015, 09:31:42 pm »

Quote from: Eric Bosworth on August 17, 2015, 09:22:22 pm

Is that including frames?

No mate, frames here are $1.10 each above the mentioned costs

poited · « **Reply #3 on:** August 18, 2015, 03:39:03 am »

Good work dave. I have been farting around with plywood and it does the job. So you think you would sell the boxes RTA for $17? If so let me know as I would be very keen in getting some off you. Failing that I could be interested in buying some timber through you. Why bring the thickness down to 22mm? Better thermal properties if you leave them thicker, or is it a weight issue?
Chris

Dave86 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 20, 2015, 03:54:46 am »

Quote from: poited on August 18, 2015, 03:39:03 am

Good work dave. I have been farting around with plywood and it does the job. So you think you would sell the boxes RTA for $17? If so let me know as I would be very keen in getting some off you. Failing that I could be interested in buying some timber through you. Why bring the thickness down to 22mm? Better thermal properties if you leave them thicker, or is it a weight issue?
Chris

Hi Chris

ill send you a pm

Dave

Dave86 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 20, 2015, 05:09:33 am »

Some pics of the progress so far

SB-Russ · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2015, 07:30:56 am »

That's some nice looking timber. I used to turn pens before I started reacting too much to the CA glue. That'd make some nice ones I reckon.

kalium · « **Reply #7 on:** August 21, 2015, 12:03:27 am »

Have you thought about trying to avoid painting and oiling all together? It would be a big time saver.

Looking at the data sheets on cypress pine, I would think you could get away with it.

Dave86 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2015, 01:27:36 am »

Quote from: kalium on August 21, 2015, 12:03:27 am

Have you thought about trying to avoid painting and oiling all together? It would be a big time saver.

Looking at the data sheets on cypress pine, I would think you could get away with it.

Had this very discussion with a woodworking mate of mine.

Spoke about blends of oil like lanolin and linseed. Plus some other.

Wombat2 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2015, 07:48:34 pm »

what about bees wax and olive oil?

Oldbeavo · « **Reply #10 on:** August 25, 2015, 06:03:46 pm »

Hot dipped in 50/50 bees wax and linseed oil will preserve the wood for many years. have seen boxes not toughed for 20+ years and still going.
The hot dipping at around 160c for a min of 6 minutes will boil the moisture out of the wood a when you take it out the hot air in the wood cools and sucks the wax into the wood.
We hot dip with parrafin and microcrystaline wax the same, then 2 coats of paving paint while the box is hot, 6+min in the wax and two coats in the next 6+ min, all done in about 12 or so minutes.
Must use heat rated glue such as Titebond lll if you hot dip.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #11 on:** August 26, 2015, 08:44:11 am »

Buy some rosin. 2:1 beeswax to rosin is better in my opinion. 1:1 beeswax to rosin is ok. Not sticky or greasy...

kalium · « **Reply #12 on:** August 26, 2015, 10:44:08 am »

Hang on though, why would we go to all that effort and cost if the timber is going to last 15 years without a lick of anything on it?
Surely that's one of the big appeals of using cypress pine.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #13 on:** August 26, 2015, 10:52:32 am »

> ...why would we go to all that effort and cost if the timber is going to last 15 years without a lick of anything on it?

I wouldn't, if I believed that... but then pine untreated might last 15 years also...

Dave86 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 27, 2015, 03:25:18 am »

I think im going to try some form of oil, masters sell exterior decking oil for $20 for 4l, going to trial it and see how it goes.

The timber grain is really nice and my wife thinks its too good to simply paint, ill keep the peace with the minister of war and finance and try oil.

Dave86 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 27, 2015, 03:27:57 am »

heres the boxes being assembled, I glued with titebond 2 and 40mm 8g screws

Dave86 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 27, 2015, 03:30:43 am »

Quote from: kalium on August 26, 2015, 10:44:08 am

Hang on though, why would we go to all that effort and cost if the timber is going to last 15 years without a lick of anything on it?
Surely that's one of the big appeals of using cypress pine.

as it was only cut within 3 months of assembly its still green, im assembling ASAP as to stop splitting of the board and will definitely be oiling to stop the split more then anything.

Average about 2.5-3kg heavier then a hoop box but im ok with that.

DAM79 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 27, 2015, 07:53:12 am »

Those boxes look great,nice job.

Oldbeavo · « **Reply #18 on:** September 02, 2015, 07:42:47 pm »

The oil or presserving coat is effective but the hot dipping removes alot of moisture from the timber. It is the moisture that causes timber to rot.
For a few boxes, what you use does not cost alot I guess, but parrafin and microcrystalline is relatively cheap but bees wax (whic you already have) plus linseed is also cheap.
Also, which way you use the timber to make the box will influence the life of it. You need to build it inside of tree on outside of the box.

max2 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 27, 2015, 01:11:08 pm »

nice boxes. Would you mind to PM me and tell me the name of the saw mill?

m

OldMech · « **Reply #20 on:** September 27, 2015, 10:32:27 pm »

As I understand it, YOUNG cypress doesnt last any longer that standard pine, its the older cypress that has the lasting power? Dont even remember where I read that, but I was also looking into cypress boxes. I have some that are about 4 years old. They were coated with two coats of urethane. They look rough and are splitting, but they are not rotting....

Let me mention this, if you have the ability to make your own box.....

It costs me about forty five dollars to build a hive, including frames, yes I make my own frames, without metal on the tele cover.
I make a medium ten frame box for the cost of a box store 1x8x8 which is about $4.29 at the current time.
Paint? I do, because I have access to old/left over/mismatched colors for free. BUT, I consider ALL parts of a hive to be disposable at that price. I spend the winter making new equipment and refurbishing used equipment. It keeps me busy and gives me something to do.
I have boxes that are left over from my mentor that I helped him assemble in 1978 that are still in service.. They dont look good, up close, but they still function. SO, for 5 dollars, you build a box and slap some cheap paint on it and it lasts 5 to 8 years. (maybe over 30 years if you keep them in good repair) At the end of that time, the corners where you pry the boxes apart are getting soft, maybe the bees have begun using that corner as an extra entrance? You take another 5 dollar box and swap the frames out the next time you do an inspection, and retire the old box..... Yes? No! You take it apart and use the good sides to refurbish another box for next year....
Now, if you have four or five hives, and desire to use Cedar, and clear coat them, with a cooper garden cover, and use curly maple for the bottom board.. I dont have ANY argument with that. I have seen some Astonishing hives in the past, and I do truly enjoy looking at them, but I couldnt afford to do that to 50+ hives....
Hives purchased at 200+ each x 50 = ten grand Hives built at 50 dollars each x 50 (electricity, glue etc) = 2500...
Keeping myself busy and being frugal has saved me better than 7500 dollars, and expanding to over 150 hives next year I expect to save even more...
I think Mr. Bush is the one that does not even paint anymore for much the same reason... hive components are easier and cheaper replaced, because they are inexpensive. Just something to consider!

Dave86 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 27, 2015, 11:43:07 pm »

Quote from: OldMech on September 27, 2015, 10:32:27 pm

As I understand it, YOUNG cypress doesnt last any longer that standard pine, its the older cypress that has the lasting power? Dont even remember where I read that, but I was also looking into cypress boxes. I have some that are about 4 years old. They were coated with two coats of urethane. They look rough and are splitting, but they are not rotting....

Let me mention this, if you have the ability to make your own box.....

It costs me about forty five dollars to build a hive, including frames, yes I make my own frames, without metal on the tele cover.
I make a medium ten frame box for the cost of a box store 1x8x8 which is about $4.29 at the current time.
Paint? I do, because I have access to old/left over/mismatched colors for free. BUT, I consider ALL parts of a hive to be disposable at that price. I spend the winter making new equipment and refurbishing used equipment. It keeps me busy and gives me something to do.
I have boxes that are left over from my mentor that I helped him assemble in 1978 that are still in service.. They dont look good, up close, but they still function. SO, for 5 dollars, you build a box and slap some cheap paint on it and it lasts 5 to 8 years. (maybe over 30 years if you keep them in good repair) At the end of that time, the corners where you pry the boxes apart are getting soft, maybe the bees have begun using that corner as an extra entrance? You take another 5 dollar box and swap the frames out the next time you do an inspection, and retire the old box..... Yes? No! You take it apart and use the good sides to refurbish another box for next year....
Now, if you have four or five hives, and desire to use Cedar, and clear coat them, with a cooper garden cover, and use curly maple for the bottom board.. I dont have ANY argument with that. I have seen some Astonishing hives in the past, and I do truly enjoy looking at them, but I couldnt afford to do that to 50+ hives....
Hives purchased at 200+ each x 50 = ten grand Hives built at 50 dollars each x 50 (electricity, glue etc) = 2500...
Keeping myself busy and being frugal has saved me better than 7500 dollars, and expanding to over 150 hives next year I expect to save even more...
I think Mr. Bush is the one that does not even paint anymore for much the same reason... hive components are easier and cheaper replaced, because they are inexpensive. Just something to consider!

Old mech

Your comparing apples to oranges here.

In Australia the cheapest box from hoop pine is about $22aud (28.60usd) give or take.

Making these ones out of cypress I can make them for about $16aud ($20.80usd) even buying hoop pine myself I can make them about the same as cypress.

The unfortunate reality for us Australians is the days of cheap boxes are well and truly gone. Even importing from NZ relates to bugger all savings and a whole lot of headaches dealing with customs and border force.

SB-Russ · « **Reply #22 on:** September 28, 2015, 05:00:32 pm »

Yes unfortunately timber here is becoming a luxury. Roughly speaking, an 8' length of 7 1/4" x 3/4" radiate pine at the local hardware is AUS$20.

texanbelchers · « **Reply #23 on:** September 28, 2015, 06:25:03 pm »

I can't get it for what OldMech is paying. I have to pay $10-$12 US for $4.29 board.

OldMech · « **Reply #24 on:** September 28, 2015, 10:03:14 pm »

Yep I guess I need to look at locations before I go into a long spiel .. sounded good though!

Honeycomb king · « **Reply #25 on:** February 04, 2016, 08:03:29 am »

G day dave, just wandering how the cypress boxes have gone in the summer heat etc, as they were green timber I was concerned that they may move a bit.
I too now source my pine from a local saw mill, much cheaper and have built a good relationship with the bloke there so the timber is cut for me when ever he has qualify material of the right dimensions, he routs the rebate for me etc. Better product at a better price, and the money stays local.

kalium · « **Reply #26 on:** February 06, 2016, 09:03:26 am »

I've just spent the day cutting up about 50 linear metres of cypress pine to make hives from. Yes, it looks far too good to paint.

I've got a small solitary native bee hive made from cypress pine that has been sitting outside
for about a year without any protection and It's a bit split and warped. So yeah, sealing seems like a good idea :)

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a half decent, half affordable way of sealing them that isn't paint.

LKBruns · « **Reply #27 on:** February 06, 2016, 11:19:12 am »

Looks Great

Oldbeavo · « **Reply #28 on:** February 08, 2016, 06:13:15 am »

I am sure i have posted this before but PGA timber in Carrum Downes, near Melbourne has 245 x 22 pine in about 300 lin meter packs for about $2.75 + gst per lin meter.
it is about 50% ex-mill and 50% merchant grade, i waste very little as i cut lid frames, risers and nucs from any pieces that have blemishes or bad knots.
That is about $5.50 in timber cost for an 8 frame super.
Does it get any better?