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Author Topic: Branded Double Horseshoe  (Read 4789 times)

Offline BeeMaster2

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Branded Double Horseshoe
« on: December 31, 2022, 09:31:09 pm »
Our new horse Cherokee branded me this morning. Judy and I were feeding the chickens and she kept trying to open the feed buckets that were in the wagon. I chased her off several times and the last time she spun around shot her read end in the air and kicked me with both feet. Knocked me back but I was able to slowly get to the ground. I called dispatch on my radio and called for help.
We spent most of the afternoon in the hospital getting blood test and CAT scans. Luckily no broken bones and no damage to my lives. Just very sore.


If you look closely you can see 2 footprints.
I?ll bee fine after a few days.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2023, 01:23:41 am »
Oh my, Jim!  That is terrible!  :sad:  You are lucky you were not seriously hurt.  Hope you feel better soon.
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline gww

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2023, 04:37:01 am »
I rode a lot of horses when I was young.  I was always kind of scared of them and learned to like motorcycles better.  Each has their own personality.  I was only kicked in the leg once during a storm but was bucked off a few time and have been taken under low hanging branches or rubbed up against fences.  Never had a run-a-way but have seen a few.  One broke some splines off my little brothers back when bucking him off.  He is still screwed up to this day a bit.   The one that kicked me was one we raised from a colt and was self trained and so I am sure was not trained well cause we basically just started riding her with out spending any time and at that age I figured it was better riding a green horse then it was walking to the neighbors house which was about a mile away.
It was all good but I admit to liking motorcycles better.

Hope you feel better soon though I suspect the soreness will be worst on day three before going the other way.  Glad it was not worse though.
Cheers
gww

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2023, 08:36:05 am »
Not a good situation; It could have been a lot worse, thankfully it wasn't. This is not an uncommon thing to have happen with a new horse. Feeding time and place, is where the 'pecking order' is mainly established between each individual horse as well as the people handling them. Handlers are not excluded by some horses when establishing, who is the boss, and pecking order. You assumed you were the top of the ladder in authority. Cherokee, though seeming to accept this at first, decided to challenge your dominance as the heard leader after a couple of times of being ran back, or 'shooed' back. The is "Natures way" in horse language.
 
How long have you had Cherokee? How does Cherokee behave normally, (when feed in is not involved)? How does Cherokee behave with the other horses? I always recommend any new horse going back to 'horse school' to make sure the horse has had proper schooling and knows its ABC's. This is for the good of the horse as well as the horse owner.

Phillip





« Last Edit: January 01, 2023, 08:46:49 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2023, 08:56:27 am »
Thanks everyone.
Phillip,
You are correct.
Lately Cherokee has switched from being the newcomer and being on the bottom of the pecking order to trying her best to be the alpha. She has been fighting back a lot lately with Chief Crazy Horse and Cheyenne and is gaining ground. Even when riding her she has switched from being submissive to demanding her way.
It is time to go back to a lot of ground work.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2023, 09:13:57 am »
I know you already know this Jim, stay on your toes, she will be more prone to further offensive behavior toward you since this incident. She will have more confidence in the dominance she 'thinks' she has built, so be careful when first beginning your ground work..
Though many colts do not go all out, I have ran across a couple colts that in fact, went 'all out' when "thinking" they were going to be the boss of the outfit lol. It is my experience these horses, after graduating from 'horse school', found a mutual understanding and respect between themselves and rider (handler);  Such horses many times, make 'excellent' partners in cow work for example, as well as other horses related activities.   

Phillip




« Last Edit: January 01, 2023, 12:04:28 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2023, 11:22:48 pm »
Ground work is everything.  Even so, a horse that is willing to kick like that might not be worth keeping.  I'd keep a nice buggy whip or something like that handy because you have to establish yourself as top of the herd with her.  People fuss about going after a horse with bad manners like that, but you can't begin to do to them what they do to each other to establish dominance.  1500 lbs or so of not Black Beauty  :grin:

Glad you were not hurt worse.  Had a friend get kicked like that and had broken ribs and a punctured lung.  We aren't getting any younger!!
Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2023, 08:18:01 am »
Quote

Ben Framed
Feeding time and place, is where the 'pecking order' is mainly established between each individual horse as well as the people handling them. Handlers are not excluded by some horses when establishing, who is the boss, and pecking order. You assumed you were the top of the ladder in authority. Cherokee, though seeming to accept this at first, decided to challenge your dominance as the heard leader after a couple of times of being ran back, or 'shooed' back. The is "Natures way" in horse language.

Quote
Kathyp
I'd keep a nice buggy whip or something like that handy because you have to establish yourself as top of the herd with her.

Horses can be what we humans consider very cruel to one another. Usually at feeding time is where this behavior is shown or brought out, and where the order of dominance is realized by the whole heard from one horse to the next, be it two horses or fifty, there WILL be a pecking order. kicking, biting, and pawing are good examples of this offensive behavior. The handler needs some sort of equalizing tool for an advantage for self defense 'always' when mingling with the heard at feeding time in my opinion. This is the 'first place' in my opinion where actual ground work begins 'at feeding time'.  This simple tool will allow you a 'way' to keep a 'safe space' between yourself and 'all' the horses, while establishing you are the 'boss horse' so to speak and this tool is rarely needed to be 'used' more than the vision of it in hand or a simple wave of it once they see you are willing to defend yourself with it.

Don't worry, they will still be your friend. They will learn what your rules are about distance and will not view you as being mean or cruel but will simply offer respect to you as one horse to another lol.

Once again, remember what they can and will do to each other to establish 'their' order which you as a handler are a part of. Once pecking order is established with a heard, and they realize you 'will' defend your self, 'your space', and accept you as the undisputed leader of the heard, usually a simple wave of the tool is all that is needed for a reminder if a horse gets too close. Just as the boss horse will back its ears and reach out with a warning as to bite another lower ranking horse at the feed trough as a reminder to the other, "hey you are getting to close, this is my space and my food, get back". Meaning in horse language, "get back Jack" this is my turf lol. If the lower ranking horse forgets the warning, or feels the need of to push the issue further by challenging the dominate horses space, the dominate horse 'will not usually' warn the second time, but lay in with a aggressive 'mean bite' in close proximity at the feeding trough which a bite is bad enough for a horse but can be devastating to a human! If a bite is not good enough and more is needed to keep that space at the feeding trough then more action 'will' be taken by the upper level horse.

This is where you might have made a mistake without knowing Jim. When you shooed the horse back the first time she heeded. But the second time she might have thought "hum, no action just another warning". I think I will simply see if I can take over this operation" thus a full out challenge, challenging you by coming at you with both back feet flying. This was not her first rodeo in establishing herself in a horse pecking order.

A handler must be prepared to do the same 'if necessary' when space is 'ask for' by that handler when negative non-respect  is shown by the horse.. Please remember when establishing pecking order, you are considered no more than another member of the heard during the transition time of establishing the order. As Kathy well pointed out we are no match for a horse pound for pound. We have to have a way to protect and handle the heard safely especially at feeding time.

A bit more: When the lead horse decides to feed somewhere else at the feeding trough, he or she can proceed anywhere he pleases with out physical rebuttal. The other horses will clear the way it has chosen. This respect of the heard must be established by the handler as well. The herdsmen should be able to walk anywhere in the heard of horses, with a full feed bucket, he chooses to go without any horse invading his space. Remember they are ALL watching. If one of the upper ranking horses happens to challenge you for the bucket of feed, lay into him with 'horse aggression', kind of like Josey Whales told Granny and Chief when it came down to survival, "you have got to get lowdown mean". lol When he sees he has made a mistake, the rest see it too, they already know 'not' to challenge mr or ms boss so they will usually not bother to challenge you either after witnessing you will take up for yourself.  The distance of reach that a horse can bite or kick may be further than many may think, they are fast moving creatures though large in size. Even the gentlest of horses can hurt you at feeding time if this natural horse order has not been established. Always 'demand' a distance which you feel safe in....

Phillip
« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 08:12:46 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline William Bagwell

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2023, 10:59:53 pm »
which a bite is bad enough for a horse but can be devastating to a human!

1997 I had an encounter with a baby copperhead (long story...) Small rural hospital with a two bed emergency room. While I was there a man was brought in who had been bitten by a horse, on his neck! Got a good look before they closed the curtain between us, and absolutely would not have traded places with him!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2023, 08:19:46 am by William Bagwell »

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2023, 11:25:17 pm »
I understand William, I would like to hear more about the snake bite if you would like to share the experience sometime.
 
Jim is not the first to learn from the school of hard knocks. I took a really bad bite by one of my most gentle and prized horses. He would nod his head up and down at feeding time in his stall, while greeting me.. One day he nodded his head up and down and all of a sudden reached out with lightening speed and let me have it! In spite of being layered up with clothing and a vest, the bite turned my chest black and blue! I can not imaging this happening to a lady..

I always carried a limber leather Mexican type quirt on my wrist and did immediately retaliate but the damage was done. From that time forward anytime a horse met me with any time of visual excitement when approaching a stall, I would demand space even there at the front of the stall.

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2023, 08:10:36 am »
I got kicked by a foal on my right side, bottom rib.  Knocked me to the ground and I crawled back to the house.  That was 20 years ago.  It still hurts.  I got head butted by an impatient horse when I was pouring feed into her feed bucket and she tossed her head and clocked me with it.  I saw stars and almost passed out.  Horses are unpredictable.
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Offline CLSranch

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2023, 12:47:54 pm »
You got lucky Jim. I've almost got my head taken off by a colt once, don't know how I ducked in time. Glad it wasn't much worse for you.
Remember the 1/4" rule. lol

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2023, 01:52:58 pm »
CLS,
What is the 1/4? rule?
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2023, 07:02:44 am »
Make sure you're not more than 1/4" from their rump... unless you're at least six feet...
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2023, 08:16:08 am »
The 1/4 inch I agree with.  Though it might be the accepted rule, to be on the safer side, six feet is not far enough in my opinion..
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2023, 12:58:41 pm »
Thanks.
In this situation I was more than 9 feet away from her rump. I was arms length from her nose and she spun around and kicked me.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2023, 01:10:57 pm »
>In this situation I was more than 9 feet away from her rump. I was arms length from her nose and she spun around and kicked me.

Usually you get kicked as a reflex when they didn't realize there was someone behind them...  I'm not sure I would trust her at all after that...
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2023, 05:38:22 pm »
Their is a distant difference in the reflexes of a startled horse striking out and one that calculates aggressiveness which is the deal in your case Jim. A strong willed horse is not for everyone. It does not mean that such a horse can not be productive if handled in the proper manner and that through proper school work, i.e. grond work, along with the ability to 'read the horse, which  comes' from experience. Sometimes from a negative experience from horse to handle is that lesson learned as I posted above with the bite. I had been around horses my entire life and learned yet another lesson from my teacher, mr horse that day.  lol

I have started many colts and as mentioned it is rare than a colt goes 'all out' with total and full out aggression behavior but I have had a couple that did so. When I say all out I mean have it out with you until one of you comes out victorious. One such colt was in colt school which was a good student having learned his ABCs and was somewhere around S,T,U,V in grade average.  A colt that I admired for his intelligence and fast and eggar learning. He was polite and seemed a nice student which had gently graduated from letter A to each letter which came next, such as learning to stand patiently when tied, enjoying being groomed, gentle to the accepting the bridle, patient with the blanket and saddle, calm with leg touching and picking up his feet, including hoof trimming, learned round pen work skills such as lunging bareback, and in time with the saddle on his back. What whoa means, and would actually come to a sliding stop in the round pen when the voice command was given from a distance. He was almost ready for the first ride. I taught him to drive, back up so forth also in the round pen without an argument or a confrontation. He was a pleasure.

Now the day for the first ride. All the above things and much more, are important for a colt to know in my opinion before a colt is ever mounted. I have found in many cases, in the case a colt is startled by the weight of the rider and decides to buck, usually a firm whoa will stop the buck in its track. You gently speak to the colt while keeping your seat, reaffirm you intentions are good. Once the colt blows which in Horse talk means is relaxed. I simply dismount go back to the last Letter of the alphabet  learned and graduated without incident during school and reassure the horse. The next mounting usually results in no problems in most cases.

So on to what was intended, the first ride. Since and all confidence was built between the horse and I with what I thought was a clear good relationship, I opened the round pen and drove the cold out. Driving is A method of standing behind the colt with very long reigns attached to the English O ring bit, which is my choice in starting colts because of little to no discomfort to the animal, which runs through the tied up stirrups all the way back to the driver, or in my case the soon to be rider, myself.

Well low and behold, something unexpected happened. After leaving the round pen with all A's on his reportcard and driving out of the round pen then past the barn, on the way to the clear blue yonders of green pastures, Mr Beautiful dapple grey, Easy Jet breed colt decided he had had enough of school and abruptly stopped all of a sudden and started running backward with both feet flying. This move by him was totally unexpected by me as he had so far, been a model student. I only had a quirt around my wrist which was no help or to no avail. I hollered whoa which he, out of reflex and repetition from round pen school, stopped, thankfully.
My son was close by and after I ask, handed me the buggy tool with that Kathy mentioned. I knew what would be next and sure enough, as soon as I ask the colt to move forward again, he tried to lite into me again. We had it out! Him kicking and me defending.  When the kicking stopped I finish the driving session in the open pasture that just as I had intended and then back into the round pen. I disconnected the driving reigns, added riding reigns, set the stirrup in place, and we had an enjoyable good calm first ride. In fact he rode so well in the round pen that we set sail to open pastures with no incidents to report. He made an excellent horse, althought he just had to try at least one time to be the boss. Once he had taken his best shot at it and failed, from that day forth he never tried aggression again.  What a wonderful gentle horse he turned out to be, and it was happily ever after.

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2023, 07:40:43 pm »
Cherokee had been in poor condition, living mostly in a 20 by 30 stall. Within a few weeks of being here she seriously injured her right back foot. My buddy is a professional Ferrier and he took care of her foot for the 7 months for it to heal. She was gentle and easy to work with but she was on the bottom of the picking order with my other two horses. I saddled her up completely several times and she never minded. About two months ago I saddled her up and we had a nice ride. She also let an experienced rider ride her with all three horses. Then Nina came to live here and Cherokee became her horse. Everything was fine until a couple of weeks ago when Cherokee started giving Nina a hard time. We switched horses and slowly I tried to get her to ride separately of the other horses. About 50 feet out she started giving me a hard time also. We rode back together. Nina has tried to ride her without the other horses but she has been refusing, swinging her head around in defiance and fighting to go back.
She is now doing extensive ground training and has seen some improvement but Cherokee will not ride alone anymore. She will ride just fine with the other horses.
We are going to put her saddle on, do ground work in the back field and work her away from the stalls. Then if she is obeying, put her bridle on and continue out to the far side of the property and try to take her on a long ride around property.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Branded Double Horseshoe
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2023, 07:53:46 pm »
Be careful that she does not become a runaway; Deciding to have her own way and run back to the barn with rider aboard when she decides she would rather to go back to where the other horses are. Their are other ways which might be safer and still pleasant for both horse and rider. But it will take patience and hard work along with training that should yield good results while avoiding a wreck or major confrontation between either horse or rider.... Just my opinion.

Phillip
« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 08:04:26 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.