BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER > GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM.

Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment

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salvo:
Hi Folks,

We all test for varroa,... in our own ways,

I don't have screen bottom boards. I don't count dots from my own hives. I am a mentor in my club. I teach about sbb, the theory and steps to using them. I try to TEACH newbees how to actually use these things on their own hives. Most people are not that technical. It goes undone. You know,... math and everything.

When visiting mentee hives, I pick drone brood in front of them, because it's easily seen by the mentee and can be an important, quick indication of a varroa load.

We talk about the futility of Sugar Shakes. We talk about Treatment Free. We teach and provide documentation as well as *screen top Ball Jars*, for alcohol shake. I, and others in my club, demonstrate their use. We get back: *But I don't want to kill my bees*! People don't alcohol wash as regularly as they should.

However I test, if one of my colonies' *numbers* are bad, I stop testing and just treat them all.

I'm to the point now, as I talk with *colleagues*, that most people will never *TEST regularly and effectively*. They will slowly lose their bees. It may not be until a following Spring or Summer, but the colony will likely not thrive year over year.

I'm now thinking that I should just *regularly* TELL people in the club to treat when I treat. Bypass all that *TEST TEST TEST* spiel. Most are not going to test. Would you suggest I should just start to coordinate club-wide treatments? This WAS our goal in my early days, 2011-2016. It fizzled because people sometimes need a bomb up their colony to get 'er done. Our big deal is that: So what happens if I treat yet my neighbor doesn't? I live next door to a mite bomb.

We show and demo lots of stuff, MAQS/FP. We demo OA Vap, talk about dribble. I don't dribble. Some around here do dribble or include it in the rotation in December.

Do you *test then treat* or do you usually just treat when you think you should?

Sal





 

Ben Framed:
Salvo I appreciate your well thought out well worded post. I usually treat in August, December, and the Spring.  I am learning and nothing is written in stone in my program. It is understandable that some may shy away from alcohol at first. But when a few total losses of a hive or hives become a reality attitudes sometimes change. It?s all part of the learning process.   
.
Phillip

The15thMember:
Obviously everything I'm about to say is just my opinion, and as far as teaching others, while I have experience in some areas of teaching, I'm not a member of a bee club and I don't mentor, so I'm coming at this from a rather idealistic perspective.  Just my disclaimer. 

What I personally do is sugar rolls.  I am one of those people who can't stomach killing 100-300 bees once a month in an alcohol wash, and I have zero confidence in passive bottom board drop as a method of determining whether to treat or not.  I regularly do deep inspections because I have 10 hives or less and I enjoy inspecting, so whenever I see my queens, which is frequent, I do a sugar roll.  I don't test more than once a month, and if it's been two or three months since I've seen a queen or I'm concerned for some reason, I'll take some extra time to look for the queen next inspection and do a sugar roll.  Due to the less accurate nature of the sugar rolls, I multiply my mite count from the roll by 1.3 to compensate (a trick that HoneyPump taught me).

As I am foundationless, my bees also make a lot of drones, so once swarming season is over, I cut out my drone brood, check it for mites, and then feed it to the chickens.  I do this as an ongoing passive treatment of sorts, another way to get a mite count, and a way to keep the drone numbers low during my big summer flows, since they are just a drain on resources. 

My treatment threshold is somewhere around 3% and depending on the season, the size of the hive, whether I'm expecting a flow, etc. I either use FormicPro, OAV, or I do a German trapping treatment, which also gives the colony a brood break.  One hive with high counts does not cause me to treat the whole apiary, although it does cause me to keep a closer eye on counts and sugar roll more frequently. 

I personally am of the belief that treating without knowing counts and on a schedule is foolhardy.  Without knowing numbers before and after treating, I wouldn't know how well my treatment was working.  I think that treating when not necessary and on a schedule contribute to mites developing resistance to treatments.  As someone who is science-minded, I would be hesitant to take any step without data, and knowing my mite counts over the course of the season enables me not only to know when I need to treat, but which colonies are more naturally resistant, which are the queens I would prefer to breed from (among other characteristics).  The only time of year that I treat all the colonies without a prior mite check is if I had several colonies with high counts going into winter.  Then I will treat the whole apiary with OAV over the winter. 

I am also of the belief that teaching new beekeepers proper parasite management is extremely important.  It's a part of beekeeping, whether we like it or not, and learning to navigate treating and doing your own testing and evaluation of treatments is a vital skill to being a good beekeeper.  Having someone do something for you is never a good way to learn.  I would hope that through instruction and training, new beekeepers would learn to be responsible with their own bees, and ultimately with all the bees in the neighborhood as a result.  I'm sure that's far more difficult in practice than theory, but what will happen to the next generation of beekeepers when their mentors aren't around anymore if they haven't learned how to handle this by themselves?               

Ben Framed:

--- Quote --- I am one of those people who can't stomach killing 100-300 bees once a month in an alcohol wash
--- End quote ---


Woo wee I wouldn't do that either Reagn with the very accurate resulting alcohol wash test method (kill 100-300 bees once a month). On the other hand if I was using the sugar shake method I would for 'certain' test my bees 'no less' than once a month.
I test mine in the Spring, Mid Summer, and Fall.. Three times a year basically unless I find a problem.. I am 'basically' in agreement with the Bob Binnie layout since he is a Commercial Beekeeper with no telling how many hives, and his livelihood depends on being successful, which starts with keeping his honey bees healthy.

As far as build up to immunity by treatment , The Organic Oxalic Acid, and Organic Formic Acid treatments are no worry since Varroa Destructor has a soft exoskeleton, (unlike our honey bee), which offers outright exposure to the vaporized Oxalic. As well or the other type Formic Acid methods... Thankfully our Honey Bees with the hard outer exoskeleton give us a real advantage when we choose those methods.
Other pesticide 'type' treatments, (and that term might not be the proper term, but if not, I hope all will know what I mean), may indeed build up resistance as has been reveled with some of those products. 

I would like to commend you for you diligence in your program in the care of your bees which sounds to be fine tuned for the amount of hives you have, making your hobby beekeeping regiment feasible for a 10 hive beekeeper who has the luxury of the time for such a regiment. When using the sugar shake method diligence is 'a must' in my opinion or we know what is destine to happen... As we were taught by HoneyPump when you lost one of your hives when you had less than five hives if I remember correctly or was it three? I miss TheHoneyPump. I hope his health is holding up and I would hope each of our fellow members would read his paper which he wrote especially dedicated to you..  He is a fine person.

Some larger beekeepers, like Bob Binnie, would most likely find the sugar shake method and program unfeasible with many hundreds of hives.. Keep up the good work my friend.

Phillip

The15thMember:

--- Quote from: Ben Framed on May 21, 2023, 04:36:09 pm ---I would like to commend you for you diligence in your program in the care of your bees which sounds to be fine tuned for the amount of hives you have, making your hobby beekeeping regiment feasible for a 10 hive beekeeper who has the luxury of the time for such a regiment. When using the sugar shake method diligence is 'a must' in my opinion or we know what is destine to happen...

Some larger beekeepers, like Bob Binnie, would most likely find the sugar shake method and program unfeasible with many hundreds of hives.. Keep up the good work my friend.

Phillip

--- End quote ---
Thanks, Phillip.  I think that's part of the point I was trying to make.  Obviously what I do wouldn't be practical for big commercial guys, and it probably wouldn't be practical for more than 10 hives.  What works for some people and some bees won't work for others.  So learning about mites and treatments with the ability to be flexible and try different things is something important for beekeepers to learn, because what works well for your mentor may not necessarily work best for you.


--- Quote from: Ben Framed on May 21, 2023, 04:36:09 pm ---As we were taught by HoneyPump when you lost one of your hives when you had less than five hives if I remember correctly or was it three? I miss TheHoneyPump. I hope his health is holding up and I would hope each of our fellow members would read his paper which he wrote especially dedicated to you..  He is a fine person.

--- End quote ---
I had only two hives when I lost one to varroa.  I have missed HP lately too.  Hopefully he will post again soon.  This is his busiest time of year, I imagine, so perhaps he just doesn't have time for the forum at the moment. 

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