Normal after mite treatment?

[spafmagic]

Used mite away in my Kernersville hive... pic below. Normal?

[Ben Framed]

Used mite away in my Kernersville hive... pic below. Normal?

Is mite away a formic based treatment?

[spafmagic]

It's formic acid... yes.

[Ben Framed]

It's formic acid... yes.

That may be the problem. I do not know what that brand instructions say, but fromic needs to be used in cooler weather. Might check you present temperature and look again at the instructions to be sure?

[spafmagic]

I'm within the temperature range suggested. Below 90 degrees for a week's time. My Jamestown Hive did something similar, but went back in after a day.

[iddee]

I know nothing about mite away or formic, but that looks like a beautiful, healthy hive to me in the weather we have been having,

[van from Arkansas]

A funny: I thought Kernersville was a type of hive I had never heard about,,, until I looked at your location.  I almost post and ask what is a Kernersville hive?  Well, a hive located in Kernersville.  Lol
Lots of bees bearding.

In my area, above 90F most days during late summer, Formic acid would kill my bees in this heat.

[spafmagic]

...I almost post and ask what is a Kernersville hive?  Well, a hive located in Kernersville.  Lol

LOL!

I know nothing about mite away or formic, but that looks like a beautiful, healthy hive to me in the weather we have been having,

Whatever my bees got into this summer that has been producing pinkish red honey, it definitely kept Mama laying.

[amymcg]

Definitely seems typical for formic. I thought MAQS labeling was below 85 degrees?


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[TheHoneyPump]

Any fumigant type mite treatment ( formic, thymol ) will have this effect.  The bees fan excessively to to try to get the smell (contaminant) out of the hive.  The dose and intensity may cause many of them to give up fanning and just vacate the hive to get to fresh air.  The result is bearding as your pictures.  Is it normal for this type of treatment, yes.  Is it effective, well the bees that are hanging on the outside of the hive are not being treated, are they. How many bees are still in the hive vs those hanging outside?  ...   I am admittedly biased, I dislike formic - big time.  I still use it, but definitely by exception.

[Ben Framed]

Mr HoneyPump you have every right to be bias as you have learned by doing as well as studying etc. I will not dispute nor challenge you wisdom as your thoughts are my learning. Even though many bees will vacate and fan as you pointed out and ask,"are these bees being treated?"
I do not know. That is a very good question.

We do know that the mites which are beneath the capped brood are being zapped which is a very good thing. Nipping those mites and their offspring beneath the capps in the bud. Hopefully the mites on the bees which have went outside to fan were also exposed to formic long enough to have taken care of the hitchhiker mites they may carry with them. If so then great. If not, what would be the results if a person were to do the formic flash, remove the formic carrier pad when done, come back immediately and OAV when the fanners are once again inside the hive?  Wouldn't this pretty much take care of the biggest part of mite problem concerning the carrier bees as well as mites beneath the brood?  The old one two punch so to speak.

[Bushman]

I have had a thought brewing in my head concerning Formic acid and temperature control.

In your case do the bees go back in at night?  I would imagine so and then they would all receive treatment.

I am in the middle of my first ever Formic pro treatment (and first ever hive)  I noticed some initial casualties the first day.  Perhaps 25-50 dead bees and a few pupae on the landing board.  I was able to get out there three days in a row in the early AM to observe the landing board conditions.  No more dead or dying bees after the first day.  Seems as if everything is normal with the hive right now.  (day 6).

My question on the temp limits is when there is brood present in the hive the temps have to be regulated by the nurse bees to 90+/- degrees F?
Does that "activate" the acid even more?  On the contrary if it was cooler the bees would warm up the hive.  Over 90 the bees would cool the hive?

I know there has been a ton of research on this especially by the manufacturer of the Formic Pro.

I'm more curious on others thoughts.  It is supposed to be cool here tonight down in the 40's.

[Ben Framed]

>My question on the temp limits is when there is brood present in the hive the temps have to be regulated by the nurse bees to 90+/- degrees F?
Does that "activate" the acid even more?  On the contrary if it was cooler the bees would warm up the hive.

Good question, I am going to try and answer your question on an assumption theory, which may be wrong but if it is wrong I feel sure our scientist friends The15Member and Van From Arkansas will correct us. (I have not had you question answered or explained to me). I do know the temperature limits on the use of formic is 10C to 30 C.  Thirty is roughly 86f which is four degrees lower than your 90f. If you can visualize this through your minds eye, formic fumes are heavy from what I understand and go down, (drop) and slowly escape through the reduced entrance set up for this treatment at the bottom entrance.

This is my theory (Using the example of formic flash treatment):
Being the outside temperature is lower (86f), than the 90f as you posted of the inside hive, the heavy fumes are safely released from the bottom reduced entrance at the just the right volume and just the correct rate (timing), as set up per usage as calculated for the day used. (Again I am assuming and may be assuming incorrectly. I do not have facts to back up this
theory, and do not know where to find the facts). If this theory is correct, then anything above 90f outside of the hive is close to the range of the temperature on the inside of the hive.  Therefore my theory is formic fumes inside the hive will have more trouble escaping at a safe level being the warmer outside air is rising and perhaps "cuts off the escape at the correct rate", of the inside formic gases, to a certain unsatisfactory extent? (The warmer outside air rising) is kind of like an invisible gate if you will.  I can not think of any other explanation.

I do know it is important when using formic flash treatment that the calculations must be mathematically correct to be used safely. Example 65% formic flash needs, (is always the magic number 40). If the temperature is 25C, (77f) then the amount of formic flash will be 15 ml of 65% formic per box. Treatment time is 5-6 hours.




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[The15thMember]

I have had a thought brewing in my head concerning Formic acid and temperature control.

In your case do the bees go back in at night?  I would imagine so and then they would all receive treatment.

I am in the middle of my first ever Formic pro treatment (and first ever hive)  I noticed some initial casualties the first day.  Perhaps 25-50 dead bees and a few pupae on the landing board.  I was able to get out there three days in a row in the early AM to observe the landing board conditions.  No more dead or dying bees after the first day.  Seems as if everything is normal with the hive right now.  (day 6).

My question on the temp limits is when there is brood present in the hive the temps have to be regulated by the nurse bees to 90+/- degrees F?
Does that "activate" the acid even more?  On the contrary if it was cooler the bees would warm up the hive.  Over 90 the bees would cool the hive?

I know there has been a ton of research on this especially by the manufacturer of the Formic Pro.

I'm more curious on others thoughts.  It is supposed to be cool here tonight down in the 40's.

If there is brood in the hive the bees keep the temperature at about 95 degrees F (93-97 F is considered normal), so I'd imagine FormicPro is designed to work well at that temp in the hive.  I think the outside temperatures being around brood nest temperature is a concern because the bees may have trouble regulating the temperature.  The temperature will definitely affect the rate at which the FormicPro is released from the patty. 

This is my theory (Using the example of formic flash treatment):
Being the outside temperature is lower (86f), than the 90f as you posted of the inside hive, the heavy fumes are safely released from the bottom reduced entrance at the just the right volume and just the correct rate (timing), as set up per usage as calculated for the day used. (Again I am assuming and may be assuming incorrectly. I do not have facts to back up this
theory, and do not know where to find the facts). If this theory is correct, then anything above 90f outside of the hive is close to the range of the temperature on the inside of the hive.  Therefore my theory is formic fumes inside the hive will have more trouble escaping at a safe level being the warmer outside air is rising and perhaps "cuts off the escape at the correct rate", of the inside formic gases, to a certain unsatisfactory extent? (The warmer outside air rising) is kind of like an invisible gate if you will.  I can not think of any other explanation.
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I like how you are thinking, Phillip, but I question whether the outside air blocking the release of fumes is the issue, since the bees will also be fanning to remove the gases thereby breaking down the "invisible gate".  I think the differences in acceptable temps lie in using almost pure formic acid vs. the proprietary mixture that the folks at NOD Apiaries (FormicPro's parent company) have come up with.  I think it needs to be a certain minimum temperature outside so the bees are not clustered and so the vapors are active enough to circulate throughout the hive.  For FormicPro the temp outside needs to not be higher than the brood nest, or the bees may have trouble regulating the temp, and therefore the speed of the fumes release.  The question I still have is, why is the outside temperature requirement for the formic flash treatment so much lower than brood nest temp, since the flash treatment doesn't take but several hours and a slow release isn't part of the goal?         

[Bushman]

Update on my hive.
Daytime temps have been in the low 70's.  Nights dipping down into the 40's and low 50's.  We had a patchy frost Friday morning.

I trimmed any branches away from the tree by the hive so that it gets all the full sun that is available.  The bees were flying by 9-10 am and are quite active during the day.  Pretty sure I saw orientation flights yesterday. 

I added another medium super when I applied the two Formic pro pads to give them some room if needed.  I popped the top last night after the bees were in hive and once the telescoping cover was open i saw bees immediately peeking their heads out of the inside cover hole which tells me there are still a lot of bees in there.

I'm dying to do an inspection but this is only day 10 of the treatment.  The goldenrod appears to be dwindling and I don't see many pollinators on it anymore like I did before.

My plan is to do a full inspect and after treatment mite check.  If the queen is still there after treatment and the brood is dwindling due to time of year and temps i would like to drop resources down and minimize the hive to a deep and medium brood box and a medium honey super unless there are more resources than I think.

Other than the first two days of seeing some dead loss (maybe 50) I haven't seen much change.  I did see a half developed pupae on the landing board on Saturday morning.

I have not seen any "drone tossing yet"

I was planning on wrapping the hive with some packing styrofoam and adding a medium super on top full of pine shavings to absorb moisture.  Also reducing the entrance to the smallest opening on my reducer and covering with hardware cloth to prevent mice.
Currently using a Screened BB with inspection slide.  Was going to replace that with a solid bottom board for added winter protection vs the plastic slide.

I may wrap the styrofoam with tar paper so it is all black.  I worry about our Michigan temp swings in the winter.  It can be negatives or all the way into the 50's.  We have very weird weather.

[Ben Framed]

> I like how you are thinking, Phillip, but I question whether the outside air blocking the release of fumes is the issue, since the bees will also be fanning to remove the gases thereby breaking down the "invisible gate". 

Thank you Member, I do not think the "invisible gate theory" actually "blocks" the fromic fumes from escaping, just slows them down just enough to cause damage or (havoc) so to speak. This is just a theory of mine, of warm outer air rising and heavier (in the hive) formic gas falling. An unseen detour, slowing formic from escaping at it's proper calculated rate. 

> I think the differences in acceptable temps lie in using almost pure formic acid vs. the proprietary mixture that the folks at NOD Apiaries (FormicPro's parent company) have come up with."

I have been speaking in terms of "the formic flash method" 65% fromic not pure formic, "treatment time is 5-6 hours", as described above in my former post along with the example of temperature and amount of fromic used, as given), I know nothing of (NOD Apiaries (FormicPro's parent company). or what percent formic is involved or how, or what rate it is released.

With formic flash the precise mathematical calculations presented by the experts from Germany and other places are laid out for important reasons, allowing the formic to escape at the proper rate? I suppose).  Even so, I concede that you may very well be right. If so and the (inside) temperature of a hive which is consistently 90 plus, then what is your theory of the 86 max level of treatment of the formic flash? Why would over 86 be a problem especially with fanning bees? In other words why is the 30c / 86F max day temperature so important? I will confess, I can not come up with another anwer or theory. I really appreciate your reply to the first post of mine here regarding this theory. I am Hoping you may have an answer to these questions. (My not knowing the answers bug me, please help)!  lol




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[The15thMember]

With formic flash the precise mathematical calculations presented by the experts from Germany and other places are laid out for important reasons, allowing the formic to escape at the proper rate? I suppose).  Even so, I concede that you may very well be right. If so and the (inside) temperature of a hive which is consistently 90 plus, then what is your theory of the 86 max level of treatment of the formic flash? Why would over 86 be a problem especially with fanning bees? In other words why is the 30c / 86F max day temperature so important? I will confess, I can not come up with another anwer or theory. I really appreciate your reply to the first post of mine here regarding this theory. I am Hoping you may have an answer to these questions. (My not knowing the answers bug me, please help)!  lol
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I feel you there; I can't stand not knowing the answer to something.  (I think if I didn't have Google to help answer my questions, I'd either explode or just live at the library.  )  I unfortunately don't the answer to yours though.  I can't understand why the maximum outside temperature for any treatment would be that much lower than the brood nest temp.  Perhaps someone else has an idea? 

[Ben Framed]

 

With formic flash the precise mathematical calculations presented by the experts from Germany and other places are laid out for important reasons, allowing the formic to escape at the proper rate? I suppose).  Even so, I concede that you may very well be right. If so and the (inside) temperature of a hive which is consistently 90 plus, then what is your theory of the 86 max level of treatment of the formic flash? Why would over 86 be a problem especially with fanning bees? In other words why is the 30c / 86F max day temperature so important? I will confess, I can not come up with another anwer or theory. I really appreciate your reply to the first post of mine here regarding this theory. I am Hoping you may have an answer to these questions. (My not knowing the answers bug me, please help)!  lol
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I feel you there; I can't stand not knowing the answer to something.  (I think if I didn't have Google to help answer my questions, I'd either explode or just live at the library.  )  I unfortunately don't the answer to yours though.  I can't understand why the maximum outside temperature for any treatment would be that much lower than the brood nest temp.  Perhaps someone else has an idea?

Thanks my friend for your sentiment. 

[Bushman]

Just a little more input on the fanning

When i first applied the Formic Pro I did see a lot of bees fanning but as the cooler weather has moved in the fanning has subsided.

I am assuming one of two things:

The pouches are losing their potency and are emitting less vapor on day 10 or the cooler weather is reducing the potency of the vapors or lack thereof.

This week is warmer with temps approaching the mid to high 70s so i will be very curious to see if more bees are fanning tonight when I get home.  Unfortunately it will be after the little one's dance class and be close to 6 pm and the temps will have begun to drop.

As a new bee keeper there is so much to learn and I find it all very fascinating and at the same time frustrating as everyone has a different idea and perspective.  Collecting all this data and analyzing it and applying it to my situation is quite fun and hopefully successful.