BUZZ KILL

[salvo]

Hi Folks,

This came in on my FB page.

These people have no answers. They just know that YOU ARE WRONG!

https://www.grid.news/story/science/2022/01/17/the-trouble-with-beekeeping/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Paid&utm_campaign=Facebook-Paid-Honeybees-Traffic-LPV&fbclid=IwAR126b_6Yt50j3n1z7By3rC69Nbfu5epfGkfRNJfzrtH9H9n_u9id8ysODg

They just can't stand to see anyone else having fun.

Sal

[The15thMember]

I only had time to skim, I'll read in depth later, but I don't see a huge problem with this article.  Okay, it takes some pretty broad strokes against beekeepers that definitely aren't always true, but people looking to "save the bees" shouldn't be becoming beekeepers.  They should be planting flowers, restoring nesting habitat, and not using pesticides.  I agree with this article that honey bees as a species are not in danger of extinction, native bees are.  Managing large numbers of honey bees CAN (note I did not say DOES) negatively impact biodiversity in certain areas, and most people aren't even aware that native bees (or wild bees, for those who question whether honey bees are native to North America) exist, and I think if more people knew they were there and how important they are and took steps to protect all bees and didn't just get a hive of honey bees they won't really care for properly because it's ecologically fashionable, it wouldn't be a bad thing.  Here's a short article from Honey Bee Suite, with a link to a really good and similar article from Wired.  https://www.honeybeesuite.com/lets-save-the-right-bees/   

[Ben Framed]

These are interesting articles Sal and Member. Thank you both 'very much' for posting.  I have tried to comprehend the latter in an excepting manner and view. The statement: "As the title suggests, all the  "Save the Bees" rhetoric is aimed at honey bees when, in fact, it is the wild bees that are in trouble. Far from being in decline, honey bees are backed by hoards of researchers and truckloads of money. Their numbers are increasing and they are not going extinct."

I can not and will not attempt to debate that the statement of suggesting efforts of saving 'native bees' is or is not correct or accurate. (I am still leaning about native bees.) In fact the statement of native bees, may be preciously correct?  Perhaps the concern for native bees should be emphasized more so than the article suggest? Honestly I do not know.
As was stated in the article concerning Honey Bees, I will concur;  "Honey Bees are backed by hoards of researches and truckloads of money." This in my opinion this is very good!

It is my opinion; Truckloads of money and hoards of research, are 'justified', and for good reason.
Allow me to explain:
When I was small, wild bees could be found readily 'thriving' in hollow trees and like places year after year in my area. Not only did they survive, these wild, unmolested honey bees most defiantly thrived!  Meaning: They would swarm and multiply from such establishments and locations year after year. (thriving).
(Though my family were not beekeepers at that time, and no beekeepers were in my area; My first experience with honey bees was when I was very small, maybe about 5 years old. We had a wild hive in the woods just behind our house in a hollow rotten tree. I had the 'bright idea' of taking a cane fishing pole and dobbing the end into the hive, to have a 'single bee', (thankfully a single bee, lol), beeline the pole to my noise! lol, Lesson learned)! Don't mess with the bees!

Now days since the introduction of SHB from Africa, and Varroa Destructor from Asia (along with the many viruses they carry), this is not the case. 'Wild' honey bees are struggling 'in many areas' and makes me wonder, "without human intervention would they even survive (jn these areas)"?  Yes, Honey Bees can be found in such places as hollow trees, but it is my observation they do not thrive. I personally have noticed that wild bees (meaning wild honeybees) in such places, when can be found, rarely survive more than three or more years in my area before they are overcome. And yes; a new swarm, 'might' come in and take their place in the same location of the failed hive, appearing to be the original when in fact they are not.  This, in my opinion, is 'not thriving'. For these reasons, and more, I will concur, the 'honey bee' does have our help, but most defiantly needs our help.  IMHO, "all the rhetoric" of preventive research and money for the Honey Bee is justified.

Phillip

[The15thMember]

It is my opinion; Truckloads of money and hoards of research, are 'justified', and for good reason.

ABSOLUTELY!  And I did dislike that this article took a tone of unfairness toward honey bees, as do many native bees specialists.  Honey bees are just as important as native bees.  They are extremely important to our food supply, and the troubles they are facing need to be addressed, because they are an underappreciated cornerstone on which our food production relies.  But what people just need to understand is honey bees are livestock.  If for example, milk cows were facing some cow equivalent to CCD, where their care was becoming difficult due to exotic pests or environmental stresses, the response of the concerned public wouldn't be to go out and encourage everyone to buy a bunch of cows to save them from extinction.  It's not a logical response to the problem.  But it is a logical response for agricultural research centers and colleges to work diligently on helping the farmers understand and manage the problems facing the cows. 

As Rusty mentioned, the problem is that people think honey bees and bumble bees are the only bees, so information about native bees going extinct and honey bees struggling with CCD gets all mashed together.  I think native bee awareness is an extremely important part of pollinator education, and as a honey beekeeper it's important to me to plant flowers and provide nesting habitat to support my local native bees as well, because they are just as important as honeys.  But there is no reason that beekeeping and native bees need be in conflict.  Each has their purpose in the ecosystem, and a well-managed and healthy ecosystem can easily support both.       

[Ben Framed]

Good Post Reagan. .  Well said. .

Phillip

[Kathyp]

I zipped through here so I might have missed some stuff, but I am finding this overpopulation of honeybees to be a problem in my area.  Not only are there too many "beekeepers", but the area is growing in population and there are not enough resources for everything.

The other thing that is a problem is that there are a lot of people that want to do the all-natural thing, which might be OK except they = all-natural with doing nothing and we end up with a mite explosion and other diseases. 

I had hoped this would die down a bit, but it seems to be getting worse.

[TheHoneyPump]

If I recall correctly, I had been saying similar things right here over couple years.  Is actually why I joined the group;   a recap
- Do not expect save the bees by getting bees.  Leave that to folks who know what they are doing.  Far too many colonies are killed by do-gooder and inept kindness. Just like some people should never be responsible for a horse, a dog, a sheep, a flock of chickens, some(most) people should never be entrusted with caretaking bees.  Instead, find a local beekeeper and offer your space for placement. 
- there are no resistant everlasting untended feral colonies. All feral/wild colonies were wiped out decades ago (1985-1990). What is seen now stem from swarms from beekeepers hive(s) that are or were recently ( <2yrs) nearby.
- the honeybee is not helped by one hive at a time by well meaning entries. The commercial beekeeping industry is sustaining the honeybee. The hobbyists are not, it is sheerly a numbers and capacity difference. 
- instead plant flowers, promote laws and bylaws that drive landscape diversity.  That will have a 1000 fold positive impact over getting a hive.
- no one is looking at saving-supporting the wild native bees: bumblebees, carpenter bees, mason bees, leaf cutters, etc. that is where to focus -save the bees- efforts.
- no one has all the answers, however the answers we do already have are not consistently nor diligently applied. So root problems can and do persist.

[The15thMember]

If I recall correctly, I had been saying similar things right here over couple years.  Is actually why I joined the group;   a recap
- Do not expect save the bees by getting bees.  Leave that to folks who know what they are doing.  Far too many colonies are killed by do-gooder and inept kindness. Just like some people should never be responsible for a horse, a dog, a sheep, a flock of chickens, some(most) people should never be entrusted with caretaking bees.  Instead, find a local beekeeper and offer your space for placement. 
- there are no resistant everlasting untended feral colonies. All feral/wild colonies were wiped out decades ago (1985-1990). What is seen now stem from swarms from beekeepers hive(s) that are or were recently ( <2yrs) nearby.
- the honeybee is not helped by one hive at a time by well meaning entries. The commercial beekeeping industry is sustaining the honeybee. The hobbyists are not, it is sheerly a numbers and capacity difference. 
- instead plant flowers, promote laws and bylaws that drive landscape diversity.  That will have a 1000 fold positive impact over getting a hive.
- no one is looking at saving-supporting the wild native bees: bumblebees, carpenter bees, mason bees, leaf cutters, etc. that is where to focus -save the bees- efforts.
- no one has all the answers, however the answers we do already have are not consistently nor diligently applied. So root problems can and do persist.

I agree with everything you said HP, but I do want to point out that there are a few areas, mostly National Forest/Park or similarly managed wild areas where self-sustaining populations of unmanaged honey bees exist.  Tom Seeley discusses this at length in his book "The Lives of Bees". 

I zipped through here so I might have missed some stuff, but I am finding this overpopulation of honeybees to be a problem in my area.  Not only are there too many "beekeepers", but the area is growing in population and there are not enough resources for everything.

The other thing that is a problem is that there are a lot of people that want to do the all-natural thing, which might be OK except they = all-natural with doing nothing and we end up with a mite explosion and other diseases. 

I had hoped this would die down a bit, but it seems to be getting worse.

That's interesting to hear, Kathy.  That's the kind of situation that's probably not good for native bees, since the honeys outcompete the other generalists on shear force of numbers.  Are you familiar with the podcast "Pollination" from OSU?  It's one of my favorite podcasts and focuses on native pollinators, mostly bees, and they discuss a lot of information and initiatives going on in your part of the country.  Just thought you might find it interesting, if you've never heard of it before. 

[beesnweeds]

  The sentence that struck me was "Placing honeybee hives in new places is dangerous for local ecosystems". Really? You would think honeybees were just introduced to the Americas last year.   When I started keeping bees there wasn't much for pollinators or forage in my area some 20 years ago.  Now it's crazy!  Blooming trees, bushes, plants and pollinators I haven't identified everywhere. I believe that my colonies increased forage 1000-fold or more here over the years.  I asked a presenter of a webinar on pollinators from MSU if she thought that honeybees may actually increase forage for other insects in an area from pollinating and if any research was done.  She was taken aback by the question and said "No, no one has ever done that and why would we?".  Research money is agenda driven now, too bad.  To me pollinator disappearance is an easy answer no one likes to hear or talk about, overpopulation and the clearing of land for more building. Not honeybees.  I think honeybees may actually increase food for other species, but we will never know.  That research will never be funded.  How would we know if the decrease in some pollinators was caused from the dramatic decrease in honeybees from varroa resulting in less forage for native pollinators?  I know one way I can save some bees, take them away from the author of the article.   In the meantime, I will enjoy my bees and the last couple of years population explosion of carpenter bees that everyone loves to hate and kill.

[Kathyp]

The sentence that struck me was "Placing honeybee hives in new places is dangerous for local ecosystems". Really? You would think honeybees were just introduced to the Americas last year.   When I started keeping bees there wasn't much for pollinators or forage in my area some 20 years ago.  Now it's crazy!  Blooming trees, bushes, plants and pollinators I haven't identified everywhere. I believe that my colonies increased forage 1000-fold or more here over the years.  I asked a presenter of a webinar on pollinators from MSU if she thought that honeybees may actually increase forage for other insects in an area from pollinating and if any research was done.  She was taken aback by the question and said "No, no one has ever done that and why would we?".  Research money is agenda driven now, too bad.  To me pollinator disappearance is an easy answer no one likes to hear or talk about, overpopulation and the clearing of land for more building. Not honeybees.  I think honeybees may actually increase food for other species, but we will never know.  That research will never be funded.  How would we know if the decrease in some pollinators was caused from the dramatic decrease in honeybees from varroa resulting in less forage for native pollinators?  I know one way I can save some bees, take them away from the author of the article.   In the meantime, I will enjoy my bees and the last couple of years population explosion of carpenter bees that everyone loves to hate and kill.

I don't think it's all or nothing.  I don't think this stuff applies to everyone in every situation.  I do think that the proliferation of well-meaning backyard beekeepers who do not learn to follow best practices, can be a problem.  I think they are a problem in my area although there are some excellent beekeepers here as well. 

When someone tells me they want to keep bees to save the bees, I usually don't encourage them.  I try to talk them into planting bee plants and protecting BB hives and other insects.  I don't encourage them because emotion-driven, well-meaning anything is usually a fleeting interest and the neglect that follows is not good for the rest of us. 

I don't think anyone here is saying don't keep bees, but good things can be overdone or poorly done.  + you can always tell when something has become a thing by the cost of it.  I can't believe the cost of packages and equipment these days!

[Ben Framed]

TheHoneyPump

If I recall correctly, I had been saying similar things right here over couple years.  Is actually why I joined the group;

Yes you have, and it is a blessing in my opinion that you joined this group and to have you here. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, ideas, and valuable experience as well as input, Mr. HoneyPump. Thanks to all of you here at Beemaster which share your ideas and knowledge. 

Phillip

[Michael Bush]

My experience every time I move is that before I bring the honeybees there are almost no pollinators.   In a few years thee are all kinds of pollinators.  "A rising tide lifts all boats."  Honey bees help plants that help pollinators...

[beesnweeds]

My experience every time I move is that before I bring the honeybees there are almost no pollinators.   In a few years thee are all kinds of pollinators.  "A rising tide lifts all boats."  Honey bees help plants that help pollinators...

Agree!

[Ben Framed]

Michael Bush
"A rising tide lifts all boats."

Makes perfect sense!

[TheHoneyPump]

https://youtu.be/VSYgDssQUtA

[Michael Bush]

There are no "wrong bees".