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Author Topic: Planning for year two  (Read 12102 times)

Offline Bobbee

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Planning for year two
« on: November 03, 2020, 12:37:18 pm »
I came to this part of the forum because I want to see how people who don't treat manage it.
It would be interesting to know how many people experienced a first year beekeeping like the first year I had. Both hives absconded.At the moment the idea of a colony of bees that are resistant to varroa is very attractive.
Buying nuc after nuc hoping to get lucky with a colony with good VSH is not a very attractive proposition to me.I have been thinking of ways to better the odds.Almost all of the local beekeepers I have talked to treat
with a surprising number using Apivar.The odds of getting the right bees from them seems pretty slim.So what to do?
I have just had an idea.And by "just had" I mean now, as I am typing.Step one buy a package of bees not a local nuc.Now there is a 60% chance or better that the queen will be superseded so at the same time I can order a Saskatraz queen to replace the queen that the package comes with.
If I remember right the package I can get in late March early April and the Saskatraz Queen at the beginning of June.That gives the queen two months to prove herself.If the queen is proved viable I will have an extra queen.The question the becomes will I be able to pull a frame of brood plus a few nurse bees and start a new "nuc" with the Saskatraz queen? If the queen is not a good egg producer I will have the Saskatraz.
I don't have the experience or knowledge to know if this is a good idea.


Offline The15thMember

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2020, 02:05:09 pm »
I started with two packages from a local supplier who only treats the bees organically.  I had treatment free packages lined up, but they had too many winter losses to sell and so that fell through.  I tried just sugar dusting my first year, which is basically the tamest treatment option out there, and I was ALMOST in the same boat as you.  I had a colony crash and abscond late in the year, and only by treating the other colony with MAQS was I able to save them.  In my area (and I'm under the impression that many people treat around here, although I'm not 100% sure that is true) I don't think doing absolutely NOTHING is a reasonable expectation.  I don't want to use chemicals either, preferably not even organic ones, and so I experimented with a trapping comb treatment this year and will continue to do so next year.  I can give you the links to the related threads if you are interested in looking at that more in depth. 

As far as replacing a package queen, I think there is nothing wrong with doing so.  If you'd like to give a specific VSH-type queen a try right off the bat, I don't see why that would be an issue.  Remember that package bees are just a bunch of bees and a queen dumped in a package together, the workers aren't really attached to that queen yet at all, which is why supersedures after installing a package are so common.  Perhaps just replace the queen in the package with a queen of your choice, or let them get going and then make a split and put the preferred queen in the stronger hive and the non VSH queen in the weaker split and just see what happens.  There's ultimately a lot of variations on it, but if you are inclined to try a VSH breed of queen, I don't see why introducing her to a package or a small hive would be an issue.     

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Offline Bobbee

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2020, 02:23:00 pm »
I started with two packages from a local supplier who only treats the bees organically.  I had treatment free packages lined up, but they had too many winter losses to sell and so that fell through.  I tried just sugar dusting my first year, which is basically the tamest treatment option out there, and I was ALMOST in the same boat as you.  I had a colony crash and abscond late in the year, and only by treating the other colony with MAQS was I able to save them.  In my area (and I'm under the impression that many people treat around here, although I'm not 100% sure that is true) I don't think doing absolutely NOTHING is a reasonable expectation.  I don't want to use chemicals either, preferably not even organic ones, and so I experimented with a trapping comb treatment this year and will continue to do so next year.  I can give you the links to the related threads if you are interested in looking at that more in depth. 

As far as replacing a package queen, I think there is nothing wrong with doing so.  If you'd like to give a specific VSH-type queen a try right off the bat, I don't see why that would be an issue.  Remember that package bees are just a bunch of bees and a queen dumped in a package together, the workers aren't really attached to that queen yet at all, which is why supersedures after installing a package are so common.  Perhaps just replace the queen in the package with a queen of your choice, or let them get going and then make a split and put the preferred queen in the stronger hive and the non VSH queen in the weaker split and just see what happens.  There's ultimately a lot of variations on it, but if you are inclined to try a VSH breed of queen, I don't see why introducing her to a package or a small hive would be an issue.   
My greatest concern is if I not so much adding the queen as it is splitting the package of bees after about two months assuming the package queen is good. After 60 days of the queen laying do you think there will be enough of a population to siphon off brood and nurse bees for a second queen?

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2020, 02:36:19 pm »
My greatest concern is if I not so much adding the queen as it is splitting the package of bees after about two months assuming the package queen is good. After 60 days of the queen laying do you think there will be enough of a population to siphon off brood and nurse bees for a second queen?
First off, let me say I've never done something like this, so I don't have any hands-on experience, just kind of trying to help you brainstorm.  :happy:  I guess the point I was trying to make is, why split at all?  If you want that VSH queen, just put her in the hive with the package bees instead of the queen they came with.  Or, if you want to not waste that package queen, just make a small split (like a frame or 2 of brood and a frame or 2 of stores) off the hive whenever you feel comfortable doing so, put the VSH queen in the full hive, stick the package queen in a nuc/box with a follower board and see what happens with her.  Why would it have to be 60 days from the time you got the package? 
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Offline Bobbee

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2020, 04:13:51 pm »
This conversation is a great help. In going into detail like this and explaining my ideas to more experienced beekeepers I hope to learn enough to do better next year  The problem being a new beekeeper is most of what I know is still book learning. The only practical experience I have had is this past year and that did not end so well.
 The 60 days is approximately the time between when I can get the package of bees near the end of March and when I can get the queen.
This year  >http://saskatraz.com/< started selling production queens in early June.If however I end up with a good queen in the package then after 60 days when the new queen arrives I might be able to have two small nucs going from one package.If there are enough bees and brood.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2020, 05:02:24 pm »
This conversation is a great help. In going into detail like this and explaining my ideas to more experienced beekeepers I hope to learn enough to do better next year  The problem being a new beekeeper is most of what I know is still book learning. The only practical experience I have had is this past year and that did not end so well.
Yeah, it can be a steep learning curve with bees.  There are just so many different bees, climates, and styles of beekeeping, and in the end the only people who can really tell you what to do or not do are you and your bees.  Once you get over the hump of knowing enough about how to keep the bees alive, and how to make more if you want/need them, it becomes easier I've found.  There is always more to learn with bees, which is one of my favorite things about them.   :smile:

The 60 days is approximately the time between when I can get the package of bees near the end of March and when I can get the queen.
This year  >http://saskatraz.com/< started selling production queens in early June.If however I end up with a good queen in the package then after 60 days when the new queen arrives I might be able to have two small nucs going from one package.If there are enough bees and brood.
I see, that makes sense.  At this point, I'm going to have to say, "I'm not sure".  I'm not experienced enough myself to give advice on whether 60 days is too soon to split, and I'm willing to bet that, as with most beekeeping questions, the answer is going to be, "It depends".   

 
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Offline cao

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2020, 09:06:35 pm »
This conversation is a great help. In going into detail like this and explaining my ideas to more experienced beekeepers I hope to learn enough to do better next year  The problem being a new beekeeper is most of what I know is still book learning. The only practical experience I have had is this past year and that did not end so well.
 The 60 days is approximately the time between when I can get the package of bees near the end of March and when I can get the queen.
This year  >http://saskatraz.com/< started selling production queens in early June.If however I end up with a good queen in the package then after 60 days when the new queen arrives I might be able to have two small nucs going from one package.If there are enough bees and brood.

I would say that would be pushing it on splitting the package.  Remember that at best your package is losing bees the first 3 weeks until the first brood hatches.  And I would say that it would take another 3 weeks to get back to the original numbers.  At the 60 day mark, you might have enough brood to make a small nuc provided that there was not a setback with the package replacing the original queen.  Like I said not impossible but everything need to go your way.  If you are going this route and can afford it, I would get 2 packages and take some from both to make your nuc for the new queen. 


Offline Acebird

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2020, 07:39:54 am »
I don't have the experience or knowledge to know if this is a good idea.
My thoughts:
There are many things a beekeeper can do and have success but the first step is to have success.  I see in posts many newbies struggle because they read something in a book or on line and fail to make it happen.  It is not because what they read is wrong it is more because they try things without having the experience to know if they are doing it right or they did something else at the same time and that changed the result.
My philosophy:
Bees don't need humans, they really don't.  Experimentation is best done when you have multiple hives that you can afford to lose.  Much of the learning about bees is watching and observing not doing.
Good luck.
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Offline Bob Wilson

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2020, 11:31:43 am »
... and in the end the only people who can really tell you what to do or not do are you and your bees. 

15Member. Great point. After all is said and done, it is the bees who become our teachers.

Bobbee. Do not forget about swarm boxes. I have found it very easy and very rewarding to catch swarms. These are smaller bees, have never had varroa treatment and so are completely organic. They have proven their capability of thriving in your location without mite treatment. All it costs is a couple of cheap made boxes (or spare deeps) with a plywood top, a few empty frames, and some lemon grass oil. If you put them up in February and they catch nothing that year... then what did you lose? Nothing. Take them down in September and put them back up again the next spring.

BUT... if you DO catch a swarm... then you have the equivalent of a very strong nuc of bees, with a strong queen ready to lay eggs, which came through the last winter thriving without any treaments, and these "packages" of bees arrive free in your swarm boxes, year after year.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 11:47:43 am by Bob Wilson »

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2020, 12:43:16 pm »
BUT... if you DO catch a swarm... then you have the equivalent of a very strong nuc of bees, with a strong queen ready to lay eggs, which came through the last winter thriving without any treaments, and these "packages" of bees arrive free in your swarm boxes, year after year.
This is true provided that the swarm did in fact come from a feral colony.  If you catch a swarm from another beekeeper, or worse an abscond from another beekeeper, the results will of course vary.  I caught a swarm last spring that literally just sat in the box.  The queen barely laid, the bees didn't draw, and they were extremely lethargic.  I ended up euthanizing them.  Swarms are great, don't get me wrong; free bees are always good, but depending on your location the quality of swarms will vary greatly, and I look at them as a roll of the dice.  Some will be great, some won't.   
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Offline minz

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2020, 01:01:50 pm »
Treatment free or Organic? About the end of the month when we go into a broodless period I hit them with an Oxalic acid dribble. It is a treatment but organic. It may be a nice stepping stone for getting started without having to purchase bees every year.
Drawn comb is a critical resource for increasing hives or splitting, it is a factor is assumed by many experienced bee keepers that is the key for expansion. Even a small hive (2 frames of bees and a new queen) will build rapidly if they have it. Feed them sugar water and protein and start them in a nuc box (or in a swarm trap like Bob mentioned).
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Offline charentejohn

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2020, 06:59:25 pm »
Hard to 'hold the line' and not treat, there is always that little voice that says just the once won't hurt.  I really struggle(d) with this as I was planning to do a treatment if I thought it was needed. Luckily my counts are around 20/day on a sticky board (30 at worst once) so I am sticking with no treatments, if they were much higher not sure what I would have done.  I was figuring one treatment to 'wean them off such things' then TF.
I had considerd powdered sugar dusting (misting in my case) but that would mean opening the hives and I would prefer not to.

So far so good for me but this is the end of my first year, bees arrived (5 frame nucs) in May and very active so I am hopeful.
I did a post on this where I considerd where my bees came from as they were local from people who treat with an oxalic/formic mix dribble, but only if needed.  They were done before I recieved them.
The upside is they are this year's queens so have only ever been treated once prior to May.  I figured these are as TF as I can get, for example the other half of the splits these came from had queens treated for a year previously.  I am pleased I found these and maybe you can find similar, worth asking a local supplier when and why they treat.  If they do the same and you can get similar queens with only one treatment done directly to them it is a start.
Other than buying actual TF bees this is as near as I can get.       
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Offline Bob Wilson

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2020, 11:53:16 pm »
Too true,  15Member.
One swarm I caught was of larger yellow bees. I am pretty sure it was from another apiary. Another swarm was little black bees, a feral swarm I believe. I gave that one away before I knew the value of it. I wished I had kept it.
Even so. I plan on catching several more this coming spring, if I can.

Offline charentejohn

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2020, 06:52:07 am »
Mine came from people who collect swarms so originally whatever is about, but then split later so drifting away from their roots, till now.
I have one of each, one lot brown(ish) and the other much darker tending to black.  They behave differently which is fascinating.
The brown ones are always more active and guards in summer were few.  The darker ones were busy in summer but are less active now, about 50% of the other hive's activity.  Probably they way they are set up to respond although weather is good now they are still being cautious.
As an example orientation flights this morning, brown about 40, black about 15.  They do all things in that ratio. 
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2020, 09:22:40 am »
My bee cut back greatly from summer activity.  They cut back so much I thought they were gone.  So I got out the mower and sure enough they are still there!
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Offline minz

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2020, 07:32:02 pm »
Hard to 'hold the line' and not treat, there is always that little voice that says just the once won't hurt.  I really struggle(d) with this as I was planning to do a treatment if I thought it was needed. .


Other than buying actual TF bees this is as near as I can get.       
If you are more interested in bees than honey take a look at mite reproductive cycle. Sounds like you are monitoring so when you get to your threshold pull your queen with a frame or two of brood. (next year not now) The mites need open brood. The original hive will start to make another queen and since no more open brood through the cycle they will decrease. If the queen does not come back mated give them another frame of open brood. (you have to be careful not to collapse your little nuc, you may have to do a newspaper combine back again).
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5994976fc534a540838f3351/t/5ef68d72fe2e3739fd91f738/1593216391684/BrandonCaging.pdf
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Offline charentejohn

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2020, 04:26:15 pm »
Thanks for the idea, some may consider it but for me manipulating brood is just intervention which I am trying to avoid.  My Warres have top bars but they are not frames so not easy to manipulate, this is intentional as I want them to 'free form' comb.
Opening the hive just loses all the hive scents and such they have built up.  Manipulating to slow varroa is not helping them as they need to be able to deal with it on their own.  That is part of my 'holding the line' comment that it isn't easy to do.  Just a couple of manipulations, just a bit of chemical treatment, won't hurt will it ?  For me TF means TTF totally treatment free, oxalic and formic may be organic but still stop them from developing properly themselves.

I was just thinking about the idea of buying, as I did, local bees that have had a treatment.  Even if they have had a few treatments I think it is worth giving them a chance to recover.  I considered that people say they won't survive without treatments, yet lots swarm and go off into the wild and survive.  If that was not true then once treated for a couple of years all swarming bees are doomed to die, but they don't.  Some do, but then some do anyway.
 
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Offline Bob Wilson

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2020, 11:45:41 pm »
Charentejohn. By TTF hives, it sounds like you mean to not open the hives at all... for inspection, for moving comb, etc. Does that mean you are leaving the hives completely untouched except when you want honey?

Offline charentejohn

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2020, 12:01:13 pm »
Yes, that's the plan.   :smile:  I am working on the idea that I shouldn't need to do anything as they can manage themselves.
I have considered taking honey but it is a low priority, if I do it will be just a few pounds/kg for my own use.  Currently the hives have dadant to warre adapters on and next year I will remove them to leave 3 box high warre hives.  Depending on how they do I may takes some honey the year after that.
I would rather they considered swarming next year (their choice) or but definitely want then to swarm the year after that, good for their general health.

A neighbour has a few hives like this, his are dadant and he does take honey but his oldest brood box has been unmolested for 7yrs. No treatments and no moved frames, they just do as they like and have been constantly occupied.  He just adds/removes supers and the rest is up to them, he lets them swarm and tries to catch them and always has more bees than he needs so is able to sell swarms.  Nice setup and shows what is possible.
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Offline Bob Wilson

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2020, 04:36:07 pm »
I assume you are in a country, rural area. I tend to think that keeping bees in a neighborhood, such as I am in, we would keep them away from neighborhood walkways, make sure they have water instead of our neighbor's pools, and keep them from swarming into our neighbor's attics and eaves.

Offline charentejohn

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2020, 09:59:46 am »
Yes, in the middle of nowhere.  I have neighbours but well away so no problem there, photo attached.
Re risk to neighbours of managed / unmanaged unless I guess you mean of hives just put in a garden and being unobserved suddenly causing a problem.

Mine may be unmanaged but tey are under constant surveilance  :smile:   I can see mine from the kichen door and regularly check them with binoculars, saves walking down there, every time I am passing. 
Two or three times a day I get up close to check pollen etc arriving, and ensure asian hornets are not too much of a problem.
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Offline Bob Wilson

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2020, 12:33:06 pm »
Looks like a beautiful place to keep bees.

Offline charentejohn

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2020, 05:39:16 am »
Attached is a photo from the kitchen door (binoculars observation point) showing the actual location, tried to make it a good all round spot.   In full sun as east facing, under shade of the trees from noon in summer and protected from SE winds and rain by trees and neighbour's high hedge.  They tend to go out east to forage but also curve back into the small stand of trees. 
I did this because of the bees in the photos who took up residence in a sealed bird roosting box, there constantly for 7 yrs.  Box of 16mm ply was on a west facing wall in full summer sun (40c) hence the sunshade in the photos, and -10c occasionally in winter.  Had to do running repairs as it was rotting away.  I noted the convoluted shape of the comb as the 30L ish box must have warranted it rather than the usual straight combs.  Looks like they ended up there and knew how to make it work for them despite not being ideal.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/GmsnGhbwzWiqKfcz8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/WKVtpai1btREBAxd8   
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Offline Bob Wilson

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2020, 10:38:06 am »
I can see the appeal for them. It seems to be the size of a good swarm box... about one and a half deep box.
Great pictures.

Offline charentejohn

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2020, 07:06:18 pm »
I am looking to build a box to put in nearby trees (on my land just behind the current hives) and think that is a good size, just thicker walls needed.
The photo showing it next to a warre box shows the interior, two shelves and some dowel perches.  Some birds prefer to huddle together hence the options.
Just shows they will work with most things.  We have a lot of trees but now that I think about it not really the rotten centred hive types so such would be scarce, some barn walls etc.  A local keeper has two in his house roof and one in his barn roof.
 
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Offline charentejohn

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2021, 10:13:10 am »
Now in year 2 and one hive down but the other is up and running, video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGy7AX_yOuM 
The other one was always less active so I wonder if it was queen failure, otherwise they have been the same all last year.  The one that woke up came on 3 covered frames of a 5 frame nuc, the other had all 5 covered so I expected them to be way more active but they never were, active enough just about 2/3 of the other one.

There were a few bees coming and going a few weeks ago but all quiet now.  I will dismantle when the weather is suitable just in case there are salvagable bees, doubt it though. Nothing worrting about the die out just guess the queen wasn't laying enough and as they died off not replaced, none at all flying now.
I can clean it up and await a swarm rather than from a Nuc again as should attract other bees I hope.       
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2021, 10:43:45 am »
There were a few bees coming and going a few weeks ago but all quiet now.  I will dismantle when the weather is suitable just in case there are salvagable bees, doubt it though. Nothing worrting about the die out just guess the queen wasn't laying enough and as they died off not replaced, none at all flying now.       
I would clean up a deadout as soon as possible.  If you don't really know what they died of, I wouldn't want to chance spreading something to your other hive, or other hives in your area.  Those few bees coming and going a few weeks ago were probably robber bees from your other colony, and therefore whatever damage could be done is probably done, but just for the future.  Deadouts are a big culprit for the spreading of varroa and other diseases, as robbers from other colonies enter the empty hive to steal resources and pick up whatever other nastiness the colony died of and bring it back to their healthy colony.

I can clean it up and await a swarm rather than from a Nuc again as should attract other bees I hope.       
 
Generally swarms will not prefer a location right next to another colony, but swarms pick weird locations all the time, so anything is possible. 
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2021, 11:30:53 am »
>. The other one was always less active so I wonder if it was queen failure,

John from your older post and discussions; Just adding two and two together. I would say mites and the problems associated with mites brought to a hive, did them in. Sadly many new beekeepers do not grasp the deadly effects that mites can have on our bees.
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Offline Bill Murray

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2021, 11:35:53 am »
I should probably start a new post but the question is Has anybody say south of NC. tried the Saskatraz Bees?

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2021, 01:05:14 pm »
I should probably start a new post but the question is Has anybody say south of NC. tried the Saskatraz Bees?
You should definitely start a new topic.  No one is going to see that here. 
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Offline charentejohn

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2021, 03:06:20 pm »
My mistake for posting this, self inflicted as we say.  I will report on the mites / not mites when I have a look.
As this is the (near TF but not TF, I know) section I expected no where were your chemicals then replies.  Come on now, you know I am TF and both hives mirrored each other just one died.  Just as likely to be the chemical drizzle use before the came to me damaged one queen but no the other.  Give me a few days and I will post details and photos.   
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2021, 03:28:34 pm »
My mistake for posting this, self inflicted as we say.  I will report on the mites / not mites when I have a look.
As this is the (near TF but not TF, I know) section I expected no where were your chemicals then replies.  Come on now, you know I am TF and both hives mirrored each other just one died.  Just as likely to be the chemical drizzle use before the came to me damaged one queen but no the other.  Give me a few days and I will post details and photos.

Why would it be self inflicted being honest? You were honest about losing your hive. You mentioned a theory of a failing queen. I responded another suspect, possible mites as per the in depth of discussions from your past post concerning mites and your hives. Naturally mite infestation will be suspect number one. As far as that goes it could have been anything else since you have not inspected.  Good luck.
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2021, 04:29:35 pm »
My mistake for posting this, self inflicted as we say.  I will report on the mites / not mites when I have a look.
Why would it be self inflicted being honest? You were honest about losing your hive. 
I agree.  Beekeeping is hard, it happens.  But the assumption is that you are posting so people can share their own opinions and try to help you out.

Come on now, you know I am TF and both hives mirrored each other just one died.  Just as likely to be the chemical drizzle use before the came to me damaged one queen but no the other.  Give me a few days and I will post details and photos.
Bee colonies are like macroorganisms, each is an individual.  Only one dying gives no indication as to why the hive died.  I had one robust colony die of cold exposure this year, and all my colonies are under seemingly the exact same conditions.  Each hive is different, and can respond to any stressor in a different way.

As far as that goes it could have been anything else since you have not inspected.
 
This is the struggle with Warres.  Without inspecting, you don't know what's going on until it's too late.  And that's a choice you've made, John, and we respect that, but your options when things go wrong with a hive are necessarily limited having made that choice.     

 
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 05:05:39 pm by The15thMember »
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Offline charentejohn

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2021, 08:34:50 am »
The self inflicted bit was that I was reluctant to post as it can lead to some treatment comments when I am looking for info on the actual cause.  I asked on a Warre group and seems most likely queen failure in autumn, too late for emergency queen.   Some varroa faeces I think but then small to dying colony anyway.  Both hives had virtually the same varroa drop but this one struggled.  Seems no bad diseases, dead bees no deformed wings etc. just dead queen and cold finally finishing the stragglers.   A shame but such is bee life.  I will harvest what I can as honey is ok.  The frames are dadant from an adapter, I can use some of the old comb to attract new swarm hopefully - https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgZCpYNgfmp7hk5wqF1VCRd0XzyV?e=J3fbCK   

On Warre inspections it isn't that tricky as the boxes are small.  David Heaf's trick is to slide them half out or tilt them back to look from underneath, no disturbance pulling frames etc.  Small area (1/2 dadant) so easy to see up into the space.    https://www.thewarrestore.com/warre-hive-quick-check 

I don't want to mess with them and so no need to see exactly what they are doing inside.  If they die out in future I can dismantle and inspect but otherwise no intrusions.  In this case queen failure would mean someone may buy a new queen but I don't want to do that.  Better to let them do what they think is best, any problems I can clean up and await the arrival of a swarm.  If commercial then a new queen would mean you can make use of the workers and ensure the hive continues, not what I do so I prefer a new lot to take over hopefully with more success.

Edited to add this link to varroa based dead out whch I found helpful https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/friends-lost-colony-pictures.49617/
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2021, 10:53:57 am »
Great pictures, John.  I'm noticing 3 things.  1) Is that big white fuzzy spot mold?  If so, that indicates to me this hive has been dead for a while.  2) I'm definitely seeing some varroa frass in the brood cells.  It's always hard to tell on pictures how much exactly is there, with the variable focus of the camera, but definitely some varroa pressure in this hive.  3) That queen cell in the middle of that honey/pollen frame seems weird to me.  That queen cell may be older, since they've backfilled the nest around it.  Actual question: Have your bees been foraging over the winter at all?  Probably unanswerable questions:  It looks like they attempted to raise a queen at some point, but the question is when and why?  When did they construct that queen cell, and was it ever capped?  Was it a late supersedure and the new queen didn't mate well?  If so, why did they attempt a supersedure?  Was the previous queen of poor quality, or were they under some sort of stress that they attempted to fix by rearing a new queen?  Based on the lack of bees in the hive, it doesn't seem like it was starvation or cold-related, so my guess would be it was either some sort of queen issue, varroa issue, or perhaps a combination of both.  Hopefully others will offer their opinions as well.

You may want to start a new thread about evaluating the deadout, John, just because many people may not see the conversation under this thread title.         
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 12:09:21 pm by The15thMember »
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Offline charentejohn

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Re: Planning for year two
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2021, 06:54:02 pm »
Good point 15th, I will do a new thread in the general section mainly to share the photos.
On the mould, there were a few bees flying (3-4 every 5 mins) in early Feb but then nothing so they were the last survivors, at the same time green hive looked like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGy7AX_yOuM   Apparently the mould is normal after some time as the air isn't being circulated, or so I read.
This hive has just always been less active but not to a worrying point, the other one being so active really highlighted it.  These were the two hives on the same day in July, active green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsxNUqif8PM&t=54s and not so active white https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmnxfposAjA they are active but not as much.
I can only say that the queen was ok but may have had a problem hence the low activity.  When they arrived on 5 full frames there was no more space so maybe she slowed laying, they built into the box below but didn't use it.  As you say always hard to be sure what happened but a combination of these things is possible.
There are some Varroa faeces but with such low numbers there wouldn't be loads I guess. If the queen had stopped laying they would have died out anyway, that said all bees that were there were healthy looking. 
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