Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: CoolBees on December 21, 2018, 01:26:07 am
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I've studied Beekeeping A LOT - especially in the past 2 years. I've only learned 1 thing for sure so far, ... that I've finally reached part of 1 step above knowing nothing about Bees ... so your thoughts and advice are most welcome! Here goes:
Every beek I know personally is TOTALLY Treatment Free (TF). When I say "TF", I mean, No inspections, No meeting, No Bee Clubs, No fanatics, No Books, No opinions, ... just, "I have bees", successfully I might add. ... I had bees too - they died.
I would like to be TF, but after losing 4 hives (100%) 2 years ago, and nearly losing 4 more this year, I figure Randy Oliver has a point: Monitor, and Treat if needed, ... until I can confidently be TF.
I've had the pleasure to tour 2 TF Apiaries locally. Both have several traits in common (that I observed): Qty 1 - 10 frame deep, under 1 or 2 med supers. Purchased foundation. No QE. Hives TOTALLY PACKED with bees. I mean - during the day with all foragers out in the field, its Standing-Room-Only folks! Supers need a Forklift to be separated, and that's no joke. Drones are packed in between Boxes in Beespace everywhere. Swarming is normal.
The most interesting observation I had, was many bees in these hives seemed to have nothing to do. Just standing around inside the hive looking healthy as all get-out - (I've had the displeasure of learning what "Un-healthy" looks like).
All of this got me thinking - What importance does having a hive Totally Packed with Bees play ... in TF? or otherwise? Do bored bees begin to groom more, once all of the other duties of the hive are properly accounted for? - is it more important than is currently emphasized?
Mr. Bush - touches on this subject (Thank you Sir!). ... Your thoughts? ...
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To Moderators - Maybe I should have posted this in the General Beekeeping forum.
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I can only say that either they don't have mites or any other bee diseases in the
area or that they have combine the other weak hives to make a rather packed hive. During the
early build up time a packed strong hive will grow the colony much much faster. A packed hive can
make early splits too. I just had the opportunity to use a packed hive to save a dwindling hive that only had a
handful of bees remaining. Amazing how they can bounce back once the extra bees are added. It is now totally secure!
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Thank you for your feedback Beepro - I've been reading all of your posts here, and find them very interesting & informative.
For sure their hives have mites. Both Beeks are about 9 miles from me. One difference is they are in the "city" - Around them are lots of flowering plants year round throughout the neighborhoods, fertilized yards (insecticides included I'm sure). I'm out in the countryside. My mite infestations have been horrible. They (the beeks) never "combine", "split", or any other management practices. They are both strictly "Hands off". The one gentleman with 6 hives (that I got my splits from), duct-tapes every joint and crack around his hives, and reduces his entrances with bricks. It made it a real problem to get in to take Brood frames - and when I was done, he insisted that we duct-tape everything again.
(I keep my entrances very reduced also - depending on hive activity - currently about 4 beespace openings).
... The success differences between my hives, and theirs, are very intriguing to me - it seems that it should be something very simple ... that I'm [still] missing ...
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They (the beeks) never "combine", "split", or any other management practices. They are both strictly "Hands off". The one gentleman with 6 hives (that I got my splits from),
How did you get a split if they never do them?
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Having 'packed' hives would be a seasonal thing. And probably a relative thing, too.
Right now I don't want a packed hive. A nice packed ball of winter bees is the thing.
Come April when it seems everything is in bloom, I want a very strong population, which will give me both honey and bees to make splits with. That's free bees, friend.
Your beek friends never inspect? Never split? That's not treatment free.. that's just ignoring them and trusting to luck, and that ain't beekeeping.
Either that, or they're feeding you a line. Take the statement "I never do anything with my bees" with a healthy grain of salt.
The thing about mites is, they mite kill your colony, or they mite not, but they are there in the colony. Mites themselves are damaging to the bees plus they are a major vector of bacterial and viral disease. You need to study that.
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Hops: times two. Very well stated, fella, Mr. Hops.
Blessings
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Hops & Stinger - thank you for your responses.
I know the mites vector serious diseases. These people are family friends - our children grew up together. They really don't do anything except "keep" the hives.
The observation that frustrates me is: thier "ignoring" is working better than my "Beekeeping" ... so far anyways.
... so I'm looking for "what are the differences"? ...
Location? - could be
Genetices? - mine come from theirs (queen anyways)
Something I've missed? - Probably :)
... the "packed hive" is the only difference I've identifiedso far ...
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A packed hive may have a shorter capping time until hatching, which results in the mites not being able to reproduce so well.
You told of the beekeepers watching for broodnest density and using tape to isolate.
The drone brood, distributed on the combs attracts the Varroa mite so that it reproduces mainly in parts of cells where no winter bees are raised and therefore damaged.
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Hops & Stinger - thank you for your responses.
I know the mites vector serious diseases. These people are family friends - our children grew up together. They really don't do anything except "keep" the hives.
The observation that frustrates me is: thier "ignoring" is working better than my "Beekeeping" ... so far anyways.
... so I'm looking for "what are the differences"? ...
Location? - could be
Genetices? - mine come from theirs (queen anyways)
Something I've missed? - Probably :)
... the "packed hive" is the only difference I've identifiedso far ...
Mr CoolBees; that adds to this story, family friends. I originally thought some beeks were blowing smoke and told you they never attended the bees. However, family friends I would trust and believe.
OK, so what we call those bees are survivor bees. That is bees that do not need mans intervention. There are many beeks that believe such a bee no longer exists. Myself, well, let me say I have not seen one, but there is a fella on this site M. Bush that does not treat bees, they prosper and I fully believe the man.
So genetics certainly plays a part but there are other factors: environment, specific parasites, resources, even weather. A book could be written on parasites of honeybees, way beyond this post.
So your basic question remains unanswered. The simple solution is to obtain bees from the fella which you already have. So when faced with the improbable consider what
Einstein stated: A fool is a person that does the same thing over and over but expects different results.
So my friend you have to change something.
Blessings
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A packed hive may have a shorter capping time until hatching, which results in the mites not being able to reproduce so well.
You told of the beekeepers watching for broodnest density and using tape to isolate.
The drone brood, distributed on the combs attracts the Varroa mite so that it reproduces mainly in parts of cells where no winter bees are raised and therefore damaged.
Mr. SoWolKe, greetings. Your use of English is better than mine and you are in Germany,,,,, I am using my native language . Very good my Man. Your post is inspirational, original thought for certain. But begs the question: are mites attracted to drone comb or drones, drone larva, in the comb. I do not have a bonafied answer, do you know?
Blessings to Beeks across the pond.
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... The drone brood, distributed on the combs attracts the Varroa mite so that it reproduces mainly in parts of cells where no winter bees are raised and therefore damaged.
That is good information - I missed that the 1st time I read it.
Thank you - Alan
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Hops & Stinger - thank you for your responses.
I know the mites vector serious diseases. These people are family friends - our children grew up together. They really don't do anything except "keep" the hives.
The observation that frustrates me is: thier "ignoring" is working better than my "Beekeeping" ... so far anyways.
... so I'm looking for "what are the differences"? ...
Location? - could be
Genetices? - mine come from theirs (queen anyways)
Something I've missed? - Probably :)
... the "packed hive" is the only difference I've identifiedso far ...
Mr CoolBees; that adds to this story, family friends. I originally thought some beeks were blowing smoke and told you they never attended the bees. However, family friends I would trust and believe.
OK, so what we call those bees are survivor bees. That is bees that do not need mans intervention. There are many beeks that believe such a bee no longer exists. Myself, well, let me say I have not seen one, but there is a fella on this site M. Bush that does not treat bees, they prosper and I fully believe the man.
So genetics certainly plays a part but there are other factors: environment, specific parasites, resources, even weather. A book could be written on parasites of honeybees, way beyond this post.
So your basic question remains unanswered. The simple solution is to obtain bees from the fella which you already have. So when faced with the improbable consider what
Einstein stated: A fool is a person that does the same thing over and over but expects different results.
So my friend you have to change something.
Blessings
Stinger - great response. I'll do my best to pay attention - learn - and change as needed.
I concur - Mr. Bush is amazing is so many ways:
1 - what he has both studied and leared
2 - that he willingly shares his knowledge to anyone willing to listen, here, his website, his books, etc
3 - and his willingness to help - (he personally helped me straighten out my membership here at Beemaster)
A truely gracious and great man.
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Mr. Stinger13, I believe that Mr. SoWolKe is a she.
"A packed hive may have a shorter capping time until hatching, which results in the mites not being able to reproduce so well."
I always thought that with small cells there is a difference of 2 day earlier in bees emergence. Now I know that the high hive temp. can speed up the hatching therefore reducing the cap time a bit. I've done many little bee experiment inside my homemade small fridge to learn it from queen cells hatching and cap brood frames hatching.
Now with a packed hive the bees will regulate the internal temp. and moisture better so that the broods will have a successful hatch. A lower hive temp. the bees will emerged with deformed wings. Depending on whether or not you are using SC or LC, a packed hive will not shorten the brood's capping time. Because there are the number of days it takes in order for the cap brood to turn into a mature healthy young bee while inside the cell. As for the mites, some are mature while others are still greenish in color (immature) once the new bees emerged from the cells. I believe that using the SC will reduced the number of mites but the mites are still there.
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Hi beepro, nice to see you again. Yes, I?m a woman beekeeper :smile:
Hi Stinger thank you for your kind words.
Mites like colder parts on the combs, as was found. So colonies which have a small amount of drones all year through will be healthier, the drones taking the pests.
That?s the reason some people use drone frames in spring to cull later, it?s killing some mites, plus they believe the drones eat too much honey.
I know of some beekeepers who hold the mites at bay just by culling of drone combs in spring.
In a resistant bees breeding system like I and my mentors do, drones are never culled. We believe them important to draw the mites, we don?t fear they might produce more mites being the better source for reproducing. In our hives many drone pupa are pulled out by the bees interrupting the mite reproducing cycle. It looks as if the worker brood is not as important to the mites in such a setting.
Therefore in late summer the colonies which have drone brood all year through and never make the drone war are the healthiest.
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I've studied Beekeeping A LOT - especially in the past 2 years. I've only learned 1 thing for sure so far, ... that I've finally reached part of 1 step above knowing nothing about Bees ... so your thoughts and advice are most welcome! Here goes:
Every beek I know personally is TOTALLY Treatment Free (TF). When I say "TF", I mean, No inspections, No meeting, No Bee Clubs, No fanatics, No Books, No opinions, ... just, "I have bees", successfully I might add. ... I had bees too - they died.
I would like to be TF, but after losing 4 hives (100%) 2 years ago, and nearly losing 4 more this year, I figure Randy Oliver has a point: Monitor, and Treat if needed, ... until I can confidently be TF.
I've had the pleasure to tour 2 TF Apiaries locally. Both have several traits in common (that I observed): Qty 1 - 10 frame deep, under 1 or 2 med supers. Purchased foundation. No QE. Hives TOTALLY PACKED with bees. I mean - during the day with all foragers out in the field, its Standing-Room-Only folks! Supers need a Forklift to be separated, and that's no joke. Drones are packed in between Boxes in Beespace everywhere. Swarming is normal.
The most interesting observation I had, was many bees in these hives seemed to have nothing to do. Just standing around inside the hive looking healthy as all get-out - (I've had the displeasure of learning what "Un-healthy" looks like).
All of this got me thinking - What importance does having a hive Totally Packed with Bees play ... in TF? or otherwise? Do bored bees begin to groom more, once all of the other duties of the hive are properly accounted for? - is it more important than is currently emphasized?
Mr. Bush - touches on this subject (Thank you Sir!). ... Your thoughts? ...
TF in many cases requires large amounts of splitting hives to stay ahead of the onerous losses until you hopefully breed and develop bees that have VSH traits and are resistant to varroa mites.
In the mean time, you might look into treating your bees with the Mighty Mite Killer:
https://www.beehivethermalindustries.com/shop
It is a thermal (heat) treatment but it is chemical free. I treat my hives with the Mighty Mite Killer. I have several of them and treat my hives in groups of 8 which allows me to treat the entire apiary in a reasonable amount of time. The Mighty Mite Killer kills varroa mites under the brood cappings so it goes after the reproductive mites which cause the most harm. The only other treatments that can do this is MAQS and Formic Pro.
I treat 3 times a year about every 3 to 4 months. During Winter I may treating with OAV which is very good at killing phoretic mites but it does not kill reproductive mites. I treat my nucleus colonies with the Mighty Mite Killer as well.
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@ cool bees
IME the splitting is no help in fighting mites, it?s just aa action to have more luck with survivor numbers, but it doesn?t matter to a hobbyist if he has 30% survivors out of 100 or out of 10.
He does not need the honey for his income.
It matters to a commercial though.
Some commercials breed queens and have nucs treatment free but treat their production hives because the stress of migration and foraging of sprayed fields will prevent the bees from staying healthy.
In my eyes not a bad configuration.
Back to the topic of a packed hive:
I got the impression the bees have priorities. A split has to become an established colony and might lean all actions towards breeding and storing, but I purchased a pure bred resistant queen this summer which cleaned the one capped brood comb given in no time with the use of VSH and pulling the pupa. Then the new brood started.
So the genetics, or probably the epigenetic behavoiurs developing if bees are left alone and triggered to fight the mites, might be the clue.
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It is very well known that populous colonies do best. The -strong- hive. The -keep them tight- adage.
Population strength is an indicator of overall health, but a packed hive is not always a healthy one. There are plenty pests, diseases, and virus that thrive more prolifically in a strong population than a sparse one. It is often the biggest strongest hive that crashes the hardest. Do not be fooled by a box full of bees, avoid becoming a complacent beekeeper.
Also, do not believe everything you read here...
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Population strength is an indicator of overall health, but a packed hive is not always a healthy one. There are plenty pests, diseases, and virus that thrive more prolifically in a strong population than a sparse one. It is often the biggest strongest hive that crashes the hardest.
I?m interested. can you please elaborate on this? What kind of pests, diseasees and virus? I understand about virus danger. Please explain about the others.
I would like to know what is the difference of a man made big production colony which is created by swarm prevention or quenn cell culling and a natural kept colony with high density of bees.
Can you give me an explanation with respect to health?
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Thank you for your thoughtful response SiWolKe,
... IME the splitting is no help in fighting mites ...
... That doesn't match what my studies have said - but it DOES make Mathematical and Logical sense to me. You can't divide the mites, give them more brood to breed in, and expect to have less of them ... IMHO ...
.. It matters to a commercial though. ...
Agreed. The necessary goals (and needed outcomes) of the Commercial Beek are quite different than the Hobbyist/Beginner (such as me). As a 20+ yr Silicon Valley Entrepreneur, I can totally see their side of things.
...I got the impression the bees have priorities. A split has to become an established colony and might lean all actions towards breeding and storing, ...
Exactly where my thinking led me -The 1st goal of the [new] hive is Brood, Stores, and Survival. After that might come disease prevention, and replication (swarming) ... I.E. They shift over to their long-term goals once all short-term needs have been met, and Mite resistant traits begin to show up more. ... This is what I think I might have seen as the difference in Hives. ... but it's just a Hypothesis right now.
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... Do not be fooled by a box full of bees, avoid becoming a complacent beekeeper. ...
Good advice. Once again, this is where I think Randy Oliver makes a valid point - [paraphrased] "Know what's going on inside you hive and stay ahead of it"
... at least until I [think I] have things stabilized.
... Also, do not believe everything you read here...
Or anywhere - Agreed.
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Ms. Siwolke my apologies. Thanks for the heads up Beepro.
Blessings
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...I got the impression the bees have priorities. A split has to become an established colony and might lean all actions towards breeding and storing, ...
Exactly where my thinking led me -The 1st goal of the [new] hive is Brood, Stores, and Survival. After that might come disease prevention, and replication (swarming) ... I.E. They shift over to their long-term goals once all short-term needs have been met, and Mite resistant traits begin to show up more. ... This is what I think I might have seen as the difference in Hives. ... but it's just a Hypothesis right now.
I monitored mite drop for weeks every day after my bees swarmed and after making splits.
The mite drop differed very much between colonies ( I have 11 monitored), it differed before and afterwards. I correlated the drop to bee numbers.
Before I always thought the bees would breed fast away and the mites were left behind but it?s not true. Very fast the drop numbers were the same as before, but differed because of IMO genetics.
The swarms mite infestation rose quickly to a high level and I had crawlers. But some weeks later the hive was established and mite numbers were as before with the mated queen.
We made 4 splits out of my best queen this year in spring. I got the old queen and a daughter, a co-worker got two daughters.
Every split had two broodcombs dadant size. I restricted mine to 5 combs, hanged two honey combs and fed. After 4 weeks I expanded to 8 combs and later to 12 combs. They were filling the box.
My co-worker practises "live and let die" and did not feed. He had comb but only one honey comb. We had a drought. His colonies never thrived.
One died of mites in late summer and the other was robbed by a strong neighbor because it had no defense. Both starved.
Well, to learn about bees and to care for them in a man made stress situation is important.
He might tell people the bees were not resistant but it?s was failure of management which killed them.
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No problem, Stinger13
:smile:
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You can't divide the mites, give them more brood to breed in, and expect to have less of them ... IMHO ...
I am not sure what kind of math you use but if you divide a colony in thirds two thirds will not have brood while the queen is being raised. You could pull the queen in the hive that does have the mites and burn them or chemically treat them, same thing.
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You can't divide the mites, give them more brood to breed in, and expect to have less of them ... IMHO ...
I am not sure what kind of math you use but if you divide a colony in thirds two thirds will not have brood while the queen is being raised. You could pull the queen in the hive that does have the mites and burn them or chemically treat them, same thing.
Good morning Ace - here is what confuses me - if you split a colony into 3 hives, you haven't "killed" any mites, and after 60 days, you have 3 times as much brood for your mites to breed in. It would seem you've just "kicked the can down the road" - delayed the explosion of 1 mite bomb, and created 3 mite bombs for later use.
How does that help? ... it doesn't make sense to me ...
Full disclosure: I'm really new at this, so I don't necessarily have a full understanding. Any advice is appreciated.
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I don't want to put words in Ace's mouth but, I think what Ace is saying is that if you split a hive into three, the two raising new queens will have a broodless period which the mites cannot breed. This allows the bees a chance to rid themselves of some of the mites that are there and delays your "mite bomb". If you reduce the number of mites long enough during the summer then the won't reach critical mass by fall/winter. If they don't get to that critical mass of mites, the "bomb" doesn't go off.
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I have tried this but it did not work. The mites live too long.
Actually, the mated queen?s split had better defense. Perhaps the pheromones of a more resistant queen will be the trigger to start the defense. I don?t know.
Perhaps, as coolbees said, the queenless hive prefers to build up. My queenless hives brought the honey, not the mite reducing.
The most important time to have a broodbrake in my eyes is late summer before winter bees which will be if there is a drought. If not fed, bees will become broodless or live off the brood and stop the mites?reproducing.
I tested a handful of bees in an apidea ( mini mating nuc) how long they survive without a queen and it was 3 month. They live longer without work and are able to breed winter bees then.
I live in an area with high density of treated hives, virulent virus and high mite reinvasion. I treated one colony which had crawlers with thymol, but I plan to cull a capped broodcomb in late summer as IPM if a hive ever gets over my threshold again.
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... the [mites] won't reach critical mass by fall/winter. If they don't get to that critical mass of mites, the "bomb" doesn't go off.
I think I understand what you are saying - basically your trying to keep the mites below a threshold until winter brood break, where the mite levels will go down automatically. - Ace, Cao, feel free to correct me here.
That doesn't work where I am in California. There is no winter brood break, just a brood reduction. Which means - all brood is infested with multiple mites - creating a 100% damaged/diseased cycle of bees..... ending in a crash. (My brood check on 11/28 showed happening to all my hives).
Also - all my hives did have brood breaks in 2018. All hives had to raise their own queens. My 4 hives were started from eggs and brood only 2/11, 3/28, 4/25 & 5/23 2018. (Genetics directly from "survivor bees").
Also, I pulled and froze drone brood on 1 hive repeatedly all summer as a test. This hive had the lowest infestation rate in Nov but still would have crashed.
All hives had mite levels by November - at or near crash threshold (mite levels high enough to infest multiple mites per pupae during reduced brood period = crash).
So splitting where I am - simply compounds the problem.
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That doesn't work where I am in California.
Not surprising. All my experience with bees was in Upstate NY in an area that I would call a mild winter but it lasted 4-5 months. I definitely used the winter dearth to my advantage. The advantage of a winter is that you don't have flying weather where neighboring hives can reinfect your hives with varroa. So if I decide to have hives here in FL it is going to be like starting over. So I continue to read...
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Also, I pulled and froze drone brood on 1 hive repeatedly all summer as a test.
Two things ... I have heard Michael Bush say if you kill the drones the hive will raise more; if you kill the drones the mites will acquire a liking to female bees cus there is nothing else. Both of these make sense to me so I do not cull drones. Propagating survivors does make sense to me but it must be done with hives that produce honey and not bees IMO.
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... All my experience with bees was in Upstate NY in an area ...
Wow. Definitely have 4 seasons there. Where abouts?
... I was born and raised in the Southern Teir of upstate NY. Lots of relatives there still.
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Also, I pulled and froze drone brood on 1 hive repeatedly all summer as a test.
Two things ... I have heard Michael Bush say if you kill the drones the hive will raise more; if you kill the drones the mites will acquire a liking to female bees cus there is nothing else. Both of these make sense to me so I do not cull drones. Propagating survivors does make sense to me but it must be done with hives that produce honey and not bees IMO.
I agree. Seeley said colonies in a small hive do the best.
To cold and warm climate:
In cold climate winter bees must be much more healthy to keep longer. So if Samuel Ramsay is right and the mites eat the protein body, it?s very good to have bees which can hold the mite level low and it?s very good to have drones all year round.
In a warmer climate the bees are able to substitute sick bees by breeding constantly. So if there is a broodbrake in summer because of a drought this might be better for the bees than the spring broodbrake.
In both configurations bees must already have had the trigger to fight the mites though, by genetics or adaptation.
Coolbees, did you open the drone brood to observe the infestation?
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If I was to go treatment-free....
.... I`d be pulling ALL capped brood when thresholds make it necessary. And then leave one or two frames of open brood (depending on frame size) and pulling that after 10 days to get most of the phoretic mites after the first pull.
Culling all of the brood would be necessary if "treatment-free" was to be accomplished.
What concerns me about that: Allright, I don`t use any chemicals, not even formic acid or oxcalic acid.
BUT: I kill many ten thousands of baby-bees per hive to accomplish that.
I am not talking of taking honey-makers off the hive, I am talking about baby-bees, that could live soundly, being killed.
I wonder if the cure (non-treatment) is not worse than the disease (treatment).
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Culling all of the brood would be necessary if "treatment-free" was to be accomplished.
Culling all the brood is a serious treatment unless you classify "treatment-free" as chemical treatments.
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what are you doing against the mites, then? they are there, you know.
letting half the colonies die each year?
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I wonder if the cure (non-treatment) is not worse than the disease (treatment).
Yes. Sure, while I do not see the bee pupa as "babies" compared to humans I see the culling as a step on the way to treatment free not as a constant action like chemical prophylactic treatments.
Next step would be shift the queen or try to trigger the bees to more fighting.
And it?s done only to the susceptibles.
I saw a hive dying of a formic acid treatment which was done faulty. So I used thymol which is not as dangerous.
But I don?t want to contaminate my colonies with chemicals or oils. I plan not to eliminate all mites only cull one comb at a time to lower the numbers.
In a setting like yours, BFB, I?m not sure you will gain anything doing brood culling. You have lower bee numbers then and much energy wasted you need for foraging and therefore for your income.
If I were you and interested in having more resistance I would do soft bond using a threshold to treat, like we discussed in my introduction thread.
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... Coolbees, did you open the drone brood to observe the infestation?
I did. 1 mite for 5 or 10 pupae were all I observed. They stopped drone production in the early fall
... mite levels spiked drastically by Nov.
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what are you doing against the mites, then? they are there, you know.
letting half the colonies die each year?
That didn't seem to happen although there were very high counts in august. Colonies that I expected to die in winter did not. It was more the super colonies that didn't make it. Had I needed more bees I would have tried Michael Palmer's method of splitting hives in July and then go through winter with smaller hives but more of them. My goal was to stay around 3 hives and that ain't easy. The bees tend to multiply.
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I wonder if the cure (non-treatment) is not worse than the disease (treatment).
Yes. Sure, while I do not see the bee pupa as "babies" compared to humans I see the culling as a step on the way to treatment free not as a constant action like chemical prophylactic treatments.
Next step would be shift the queen or try to trigger the bees to more fighting.
And it?s done only to the susceptibles.
I saw a hive dying of a formic acid treatment which was done faulty. So I used thymol which is not as dangerous.
But I don?t want to contaminate my colonies with chemicals or oils. I plan not to eliminate all mites only cull one comb at a time to lower the numbers.
In a setting like yours, BFB, I?m not sure you will gain anything doing brood culling. You have lower bee numbers then and much energy wasted you need for foraging and therefore for your income.
If I were you and interested in having more resistance I would do soft bond using a threshold to treat, like we discussed in my introduction thread.
The thymol-stuff in my eyes is not worth the effort.
IF I`d do brood-culling I`d do it after the flow. For wintering and spring-buildup, the loss of bees won`t matter. Not in our place at least - including yours. Your experiment with the Apidea can tell you that.
Culling one frame at a time seems quite useless to me.
@ace: Do the just-survivors make honey for you worthwhile? Do they live another year?
All this treatment-free is a nice idea, but wait for the years with many mites. This one was easy-going in most parts of Germany. The yard`s are gonna crash. Maybe not in all regions. For some it seems the mites can be coped with. But in most places they will. As they have been the last decades. Some beekeepers say: Some are gonna die anyway. So it doesn`t matter if I treat or not. That is not true. The ones that died mostly have not been treated right. Some always will perish because of late queen-loss in fall or a failing queen. But most all of the ones dying die because the beeks didn`t do enough against varroa.
It is not only about surviving, it is about making honey the next year.
A sound, healthy hive will make lots of honey. It`s pretty much the only apect we can see of a healthy hive. Mammals are much easier to be judged concerning their healt.
Just barly surviving is not what an animal likes to do.
Every time I used thresholds to determine wether or not to treat a hive (treating individually that is) I regretted this later on as mite counts where a lot higher than in the treated ones and bee-population diminshing.
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The thymol-stuff in my eyes is not worth the effort.
IF I`d do brood-culling I`d do it after the flow. For wintering and spring-buildup, the loss of bees won`t matter. Not in our place at least - including yours. Your experiment with the Apidea can tell you that.
Culling one frame at a time seems quite useless to me.
Just barly surviving is not what an animal likes to do.
Every time I used thresholds to determine wether or not to treat a hive (treating individually that is) I regretted this later on as mite counts where a lot higher than in the treated ones and bee-population diminshing.
Thymol works well for Erik, who treats individually in a commercial setting. but next spring shifts the queen to a more resistant line.
He considers traits like honey, gentleness and coming out of winter strong besides resistance.
I?m not sure about the overwintering with a black forest flow. It?s rather late for the bees to breed healthy winter bees then, even if you treat with formic. So in spring this results in weak hives which must be combined so the first flow can be taken. I read this in our bee magazine, "Bienen und Natur", it seems to be a normal process. And to combine means one colony less.
But it must work for you which is fine for me.
:smile:
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We don`t winter the bees in the Black Forest. I look for it that when the coolness and dampness comes to the Black Forest - and the good flows of pollen and of a little nectar (from flowers) cease, I move to mild regions sort of like yours where the bees can still forage a little bit and fly long. That is where they make the Fl?lingsbl?tenhonig next April and May. This year I "ran away" mid-September from the on-going pine-flow. Usually I move October.
Only when and if the forest flows End of May, beginning of June, I move our bees to the BF again.
Just my little hobbyiest-setup by the house stays put all year long. Quite a different keeping of bees, I must say. Keeping bees in the milder, flower-flow-dominated regions is just so much easier.
So all in all, apart from us moving our bees, the conditions are pretty much the same for you and me.
No matter where and when I used thymol, the effect was to be neglected. A friend of mine - I got my first bees from him - used it with some effect. But he kept on loosing hives just the same, so....
What I mostly do, last honey-pull latest mid-August: Take ALL brood- combs away in the brood-box ( which has room for 9 frames Dadant, they hover around 6 to 8 usually), including the queen. Shake off maybe half the bees. Put the queen and about three good frames of brood in a nuc-box. Take it to another yard. Treat the nucs with formic acid (sponge cloth, a strong hive hardly has any damage from this as the treatment is over in a matter of hours - ratio of bees to room is what I mean with "strong"), as they have most of the mites.
Treat the leftover bees (which have been given a new queen by now and have no honey-supers any more) with oxcalic acid vaporization after a few days. This year I skipped that part.
If this is done in July still, I might get away with all natural comb in the brood-boxes of nucs and left-behing-bees (both having some combs - the nucs about 3 brood-combs, the hives about 2 honey-combs), which they build nicely at this time of year. But it stresses the bees at this moment. If this is done mid-August or so, I prefer foundation or a mixture of foundation-less and foundation, as the bees won`t have enough places to store feed otherwise.
Mostly, end of September, beginning of October at the latest, all get another round of sponge-cloths with formic acid. I worked with individual treatments in the last years, but now all get the same treatments, as the results where not good otherwise.
This year I only did the last treatment, as there where little mites and a honey-flow.
The next days I will vaporize once (if need be I would do it twice, not this year), dribble on some maybe.
I don`t cull any drone-brood and neither did I ever cull any worker-brood. I as yet always have been vigilant enough to be able to avoid that.
With this rough outline (flexibility is part of the plan) I haven`t lost a single unit to the varroa mite for two winters now. I don`t really expect any losses due to varroa this winter, either.
merry christmas to all - all over the world!
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That?s much labour, BFB!
Wow!
Happy holidays!
:smile:
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Well, that`s multiplying hives. :grin:
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@ace: Do the just-survivors make honey for you worthwhile? Do they live another year?
More honey then I could sell, more honey then I could use. I still have a case in the freezer and I brought down 20 gal of mead in two trips.
All foragers die in less than a year, yours and mine. I think my queens were lasting two to three years but I have no way of proving that. Initially I was working with one hive and in 3 years I was up to three making it through winter. Then it went to six and I started giving hives away and moving them to other friends which turned disastrous. Two out of the three I kept died in winter in the 5th year. I was back to 3 in the sixth year which two made it through winter. In early summer I sold the remaining hives because I was moving to FL where I can't have bees. Hobby beekeeping is completely different than farming where the bottom line is important. And I have made this statement before, "Beekeeping is the cheapest hobby I ever got involved in". You can make your own equipment from scrap and the bees do most of the work. People will buy your excess honey, bees, wax ect. to offset any initial cost.
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DO teach my bees and me to make more honey then I could sell!
And You go treatment-free all the time? No culling of brood?
NY...that`s where Seeley made his discoveries in the forest? Maybe one of those areas where it would work out?
Around here, most would die or at least not develop well next year or die then.
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Well,
it?s Ace you asked, BFB, but I want to chime in:
I have treated one hive out of 11 in 2018 all others are completely tf since 2015, I?ve had losses but always survivors.
Losses were: first winter zero, next winter 10 out of 14, next winter 5 out of 11. That was when I did "live and let die" but I believe it a success with respect to the bee density of my environment.
4 of my todays? colonies are purchased newly as VSH bees ( treated by the seller). I did not do the summer treatments on them.
I winter 15 colonies, which right now are still alive.
And the friend in bavaria I got my elgons from, he is tf since 2013 last treatment was 2012. Loss: 30%
My oldest tf queen is going into her third winter tf. I keep a "feral" hive of AMM descendants, never opened since 2016, they still live. Surrounded by +-50 hives of treated bees.
But I have no commercials around me, only small sideliners. That?s because we don?t have a main flow but a small but constant flow. Beekeepers around me who have more hives leave in spring to migrate to the fields.
I have more honey than I need for myself too, I sell a part of the surplus and feed the rest to the bees.
I have fed with sugar only in case of emergency, which was this year feeding the package bees and one small split I introduced a pure bred resistant queen into late in year.
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My oldest tf queen is going into her third winter tf.
I have treated one hive out of 11 in 2018
I keep a "feral" hive of AMM descendants, never opened since 2016,
Ms. SiWoLKe, I am impressed with you and Mr. Forest. You, Lady SiWoLKe, know each hive in your Apiary, I mean each and every hive as if it were your only, even your queens {oldest tf queen will be 3},,,,, do you know each and every queen? I am always impressed when a beek can describe individual characteristics of a particular queen or a hive. That tells me you adore the bees, pay close attention and care about each hive well being.
Also with you Lady and Mr. Forest there is definitely the ability to observe little things, adapt make changes as circumstances require to maintain healthy hives. In a word IMPRESSIVE.
I have a two queens going into 3rd year and I can recognize Alpha, my breeder queen, unmarked but unique coloring, Cordovan. I have one bronze colored queen, subject to a breeder she is and another 14 itialians. I submit to you that Alpha, my breeder queen, recognizes me and struts on her brood filled frames showing off her marvelous daughters that can be gently petted. Sounds like I been stung one to many times as some may say, others like yourselves I imagine would believe me.
Keep up the good work, across the pond, share your knowledge and thank you both for your time and thoughts.
Blessings
Blessings
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Ms. SiWoLKe, I am impressed with you and Mr. Forest. You, Lady SiWoLKe, know each hive in your Apiary, I mean each and every hive as if it were your only, even your queens {oldest tf queen will be 3},,,,, do you know each and every queen?
Also with you Lady and Mr. Forest there is definitely the ability to observe little things, adapt make changes as circumstances require to maintain healthy hives. In a word IMPRESSIVE.
I have a two queens going into 3rd year and I can recognize Alpha, my breeder queen, unmarked but unique coloring, Cordovan. I have one bronze colored queen, subject to a breeder she is and another 14 itialians. I submit to you that Alpha, my breeder queen, recognizes me and struts on her brood filled frames showing off her marvelous daughters that can be gently petted. Sounds like I been stung one to many times as some may say, others like yourselves I imagine would believe me.
Keep up the good work, across the pond, share your knowledge and thank you both for your time and thoughts.
Blessings
Blessings
Thanks again for your kindness. :smile:
Yes I?m conducting a journal and know about every hive. Hives are marked. Robber screens are on all season so drift is reduced 40%. I placed them apart some m.
Every colony has a life of it?s own.
My oldest queen we ( as a tf group) used to breed daughter from. One of them is a commercial beek keeping bees like BFB does, he has made some daughters and owns one carniolan colony which is tf for two seasons, he claims, in midst of his treated hives but it?s never migrated. He migrated with the other ones but now wants to test the elgon genetics in his setting.
The new queens out of those tf hives are artificially inseminated with tf drones, diversity by using mixed drones of our two colonies. I look forward what will happen.
Plus, he ordered 4 pure bred elgon queens of different lines, which I brought in from sweden. If all goes well we will mate the descendants in an isolated mating place his association provides for us.
Past showed that the F1 are the most resistant and tolerant. They still have the genes but are adapted to the location. And the queens are northern bred which means they are used to harder climate.
Blessings to you too. As our countries drift apart in politics it?s nice to still be united by beekeeping.
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I sure wished TF-beekeeping was possible - on a larger scale, too.
When I still had only 5 or 8 hives at my house - no migration - I knew them all pretty well, too. I loved that. Nowadays I can`t know them all. We wintered 80 hives and they are 2.5 hours drive away. Some I know still. Breeder-queens from a friend or "monsters" of last year. I don`t keep cards anymore, i didn`t get done with the work.... I jot some notes on the lid and work on from there. I try to keep track of which "line" is in which box. But this year I put my best 12 or so queens in nuc-boxes (as described before) very late in the season and then I mixed up the lids..... :oops: I noticed when I stored some boxes for winter....
O well - anything in nuc-boxes should be breeding-quality - spring will decide. The rest I put into the big boxes in late autumn.
If treatment free was possible with a small-scale-commercial outfit, I?d do it. We are Bioland-certified, we use a lot of natural comb, we use as little treatments as feasible and use a lot of the swarming-tendencies. TF would be a welcome step, but I can say: Losses of 30% or even 15% are not bearable. I don`t want to go into the ethics of animal-keepings as the goal of a resistance line is more worth than all the steaks on the plate.
Every year I have some failing queens in spring, that are the "losses" - the bees are put in somewhere else. I don`t exchange my queens unless they really are behind in colony-buildup and honey-production. So they do get quite old. Usually I don`t have enough queens at the end of the season.... although at times I don`t seem to be doing anything else.....
As to politics and world-wide understanding:
I don`t have any resentments against US-Americans. I know quite a few, like I know or knew quite a few other people. But the US is the only foreign place I really lived in for some time. I met a lot of friendlyness over there.
Nowadays I live in a very remote part of Germany. Foreigners are rare. Some very few Turks, some Polish or Russians live here. The occasinal odd European having married here. Not many migrants, practically none. Still I meet most foreigners with a large interest. With US-Americans I can chat nicely, I love that. Others are interesting because they are different. When I was at university a lot of my friends where REALLY black Africans. I often was the only white face at parties. There is so much wisdom and knowledge and difference in all the people of the world. I still love that, although I don`t get to meet many around here, where I am off the grown rock, so to speak.
I think we could all get along just fine in this world, if we only tried more. Maybe it`s about a deeper sense and satisfaction in life. That everyone has to obtain for him- or herself.
Like bees - being human is basically the same all over the globe. Minor differences in circumstances.
merry christmas again!
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Another thing about TF...
...Si-Wo, Ace, STinger...
that are Your honey-yields compared to Your neighbours, who treat (and also know how to keep bees....)
I usually calculate the average like this:
Summed up honey-yield.
divided by the number of colonies (all units) going INTO winter the year BEFORE.
That way I get to 45 kg for 2018. Which is some more than would be average over the years. Also I had a growth rate of 1.6x, which is part of the yield. In this calculation are my hobby-hives, too, but they make less honey than the others, as they see spring so late.
Of course, these yields are only comparable for the same areas.
(@Si-Wo: migration in summer did hardly yield any honey, main flows are spring, fir (fluid and melizitose) and pine. Chestnut, Bass-Wood and Summer-Honey where very little)
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A TF hobbyist with such a small hive count as I had is not going to have a good average. In times of recovery you are trading honey for bees. In general honey yield has a lot to do with location which is why commercial beekeepers move their bees. For me 200 pounds of honey out of a hive was a reality but not in times of recovery. TF is very possible as a side liner but averages might be lower then treated hives. That is not to say income is better for those that treat. There is such a premium for TF honey.
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A TF hobbyist with such a small hive count as I had is not going to have a good average. In times of recovery you are trading honey for bees. In general honey yield has a lot to do with location which is why commercial beekeepers move their bees. For me 200 pounds of honey out of a hive was a reality but not in times of recovery. TF is very possible as a side liner but averages might be lower then treated hives. That is not to say income is better for those that treat. There is such a premium for TF honey.
if there was a market for it, sure. I don`t see it. Not if You have tons to sell.
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When I was in sweden the average was 35kg in a good year without a drought. It was too dry for heather honey this year so it was probably not as much.
I can?t say about my colonies because I`m not keeping bees like anyone else. They always have 20kg of stores inside besides the broodnest stores. I take only surplus but give much to splits.
No excluder.
The swarms I did not harvest and fed them ( with honey comb).
The splits I always made strong and only two out of a colony, I needed more comb and did not want to feed, out of lazyness. :smile:
This season I did a small split with queen and a big one was the mother hive. I splitted again one queenless because he had nice QC on different frames. One of the queenless splits swarmed on me.
You see it?s a little chaotic. I have extracted 15-20 kg out of 2 colonies, donated all other honeycomb. I?ve not fed the established hives. Maybe I can harvest some in spring if it?s not crystallized.
The harvest came out of queenless splits.
I must admit most of my honey harvest came out of the deadouts, which died before eating it. My colonies go into winter having +-30kg of stores.
I have not and never will have production hives. I try to follow nature and split once. Perhaps I will let them swarm in future or copy by a similar multiplying. I don?t know yet. I have to see if I have any survivors and then evaluate the results of my beekeeping, comparing the journaling with what happened and then deciding how to go on.
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@Ace: 100 pounds per hive is a good average. It would be in most parts of Germany at least.
I know people who claim they have 200 pounds average. I don`t believe them. Or rather: their calculations. They probably count only the ones they put into the flow and the rest - dead or dwindling - are left out of the math. Well.
I have had one hive with about 200 pounds, some with a little less. So there were the ones with maybe only 50 pounds, too. I don`t equalize them (haven`t as yet).
We try to make some money with honey because I can`t work on my learned professions any more. And DO like producing foods like honey and mead better than teaching or making machines. So TF might be some way out still.
I just treatet my hobby-hives with oxalic acid (dribling). Was a famliy thing, all boys trotted along, (step)Dad did the work. 3 out of 5 would not have needed the OA, 2 would have lived without and might have went to the threshold coming summer. I treated them anyway cause I can`t fiddle with them in spring and summer. They gotta run by themselves. I sort of charged the batteries for that today. 4 out of the 5 are very satisfying in strength. Too much honey in the fifth, so got sort of squeezed in the front of the bottom box. The 4 will make honey, the fifth will live and make honey if there is a late flow. If there is a flow at all...
Two days from now I will go to the other hives and OA them, too. That will be a full-day-job.
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@SiWo: 35 kg by my math is a good average for me, too.
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I know people who claim they have 200 pounds average.
I don't know anyone that claims that no matter what math they use but I think a hobbyist looks at averages differently. A commercial beekeeper is always comparing the bottom line so will look at the word "average" more like what you are using. A hobbyist wants to know how much honey should be expected in a hive should the hive produce. So they are more likely not to include all their hives. They know splits, nucs, and dead hives don't usually produce a lot of honey.
That being said some commercials may leave out hives because they classify their yield as production hives, meaning honey producing. Splits and nucs may be classified as bee producing hives but I have never seen an average claim for pounds of bees.
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if there was a market for it, sure. I don`t see it. Not if You have tons to sell.
If you have tons to sell you need a broker. If a broker is involved then you are selling honey @ 2 bucks a pound not 12. It almost doesn't matter what the honey is at 2 bucks a pound.
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I agree with Ace.
The highest I heard of out of production hives was 60kg, but I believe you can have 100kg by migrating.
I?m quite sure my best producing queenless spit made 60kg if I had taken all, but it was an exception. I planted two flow fields near them this season and they produced much more honey. Weather was good too. At my elgons there was no drought.
Honey harvest is influenced immensely by climate, or not?
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Ace, if BFB is Bioland certified he can sell honey for a very good price, I believe.
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I believe Brother Adam holds the world record honey per hive at 700 pounds 320 k, about. Astonishing.
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I agree with Ace.
The highest I heard of out of production hives was 60kg, but I believe you can have 100kg by migrating.
I?m quite sure my best producing queenless spit made 60kg if I had taken all, but it was an exception. I planted two flow fields near them this season and they produced much more honey. Weather was good too. At my elgons there was no drought.
Honey harvest is influenced immensely by climate, or not?
180-280 lb per hive (60-105kg) is typical here in the great white north. When 180(60) is not made something is wrong with the hive, the beekeeper missed the mark, or it is a bad weather season across the entire apiary.
I had experimented with double and triple queen hives. Easily and quickly pushed far north of 450 lbs. Those monsters take alot of frequent attention to keep contained and under control. Too much to be sustainable as they affect the limited time budget available to get the rest of the apiary. If you want a -packed- hive, try one of those and leave it alone for anything more than 4 days.
Yield is determined by;
- local climate meaning; temperature, weather, forage, number of daylight hours, length of the season.
- genetics of the bee is a significant factor. Some are lazy, some work tirelessly
- beekeeper experience and skill
- timing, as staged by the beekeeper skill, of achieving foraging force peak population on point with the onset of the main flow of the flora.
One way to know a hive yield is, of course, to have the hive on a scale.
For average of an apiary, my method to calculate yield is: Total harvest tally at end of season divided by the number of stable viable hives at the beginning of the season when spring work is complete. Number of hives is the count after cleaning up dead-outs, after weak combines, before splits. That number is the bees, the hives, that the season actually starts with. As example, in the hobby yard end of spring work 2018 left 7 viable functioning hives. End of season, in the fall, harvest tally was 1150kg. 1150/7 = 164kg per hive. Multiple splits, nuc sales, hive crashes, queen rearing and requeening also takes place over the season. Those are not included in the current year yield calc as those works are all about next years apiary, which will be counted end of spring work 2019 and yield per hive determined end of season 2019.
Hope that makes sense and you find it helpful.
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Ace, if BFB is Bioland certified he can sell honey for a very good price, I believ
I don't know what Bioland certified is. I know that most people that pay a lot of money for honey want it local and untreated.
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HP quote: 180-280 lb per hive (60-105kg) is typical here in the great white north. When 180(60) is not made something is wrong with the hive, the beekeeper missed the mark, or it is a bad weather season across the entire apiary.
HP that is incredible, my envy, I realize up North there is lots of flowers. In Montana, something blooms Spring thru Fall. Your pic shows beautiful flowers as far as the eye can see. In my immediate area, all forested, 100 pounds per hive would be eye catching, bragging rites. This area has tremendous flow in early Spring, then fizzles down hill. Just 30 miles south of me is ag land, totally different: cotton, soy beans and pesticides.
Blessings
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I have gotten 120 lbs from a hive a couple of years ago. To get that the hive has got to be strong early and not swarm in the spring. Like Stinger13, we have a strong spring flow. By July, after the blackberries are done, there isn't much of a flow for them to put on weight. I got 30 gallons of honey this year off of about 8 or 9 hives. The rest of my hives were used for splits. My priorities, the last few years, has not been honey production but increasing hive numbers.
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Ace, if BFB is Bioland certified he can sell honey for a very good price, I believ
I don't know what Bioland certified is. I know that most people that pay a lot of money for honey want it local and untreated.
It?s an organic label.
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Ace, if BFB is Bioland certified he can sell honey for a very good price, I believe.
It`s allright. We "broker" stuff ourselves internally of Bioland. Riches can be gained elsewhere, I guess.
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Ace, if BFB is Bioland certified he can sell honey for a very good price, I believ
I don't know what Bioland certified is. I know that most people that pay a lot of money for honey want it local and untreated.
it is "local" and untreated. Controlled by agencies controlled by the government. Yearly inspections. Nosing into every sheet of paper, in the cellars, in the extracting room, into the hives. Expensive!
it`s certified organic honey (and mead and wax) which can be sold not only to the people knowing the beekeeper, but to others in organic shops because the customer will know that certain standards are fullfilled.
"Bioland" has pretty high standards.
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Ace, if BFB is Bioland certified he can sell honey for a very good price, I believ
I don't know what Bioland certified is. I know that most people that pay a lot of money for honey want it local and untreated.
it is "local" and untreated. Controlled by agencies controlled by the government. Yearly inspections. Nosing into every sheet of paper, in the cellars, in the extracting room, into the hives. Expensive!
it`s certified organic honey (and mead and wax) which can be sold not only to the people knowing the beekeeper, but to others in organic shops because the customer will know that certain standards are fullfilled.
"Bioland" has pretty high standards. Only topped by Demeter.
we fulfill most standards of Demeter on a free-willed-basis.
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https://www.bioland.de/start.html
"Bio-Land" means literally: "organic country"
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@THP: If you average on the "viable" hives with beginning of flow...
....what`s the percentage of viable hives to wintered colonies the year before? Of course incl. all nucs.
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It?s an organic label.
With all kinds of chemical treatments? Moving bees from here to there? I can't fathom anything in Europe being "organic". Way to high a population density. Possibly you could be organic with plants but bees? I don't see it happening.
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I use organic acids, nothing else.
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We could fight about this "organic" treatments all the time and about any honey being "organic" which is not. Bees cannot be directed to a field which is not sprayed, but I know about the laws and supervisions.
I took part in a class of "wesensgem??e Imkerei" but I never understood why treatments were "wesensgem??", just as harvesting all honey and feeding sugar.
But the organic acids are much better than any other chemicals. I?m not one attacking those who have their income from their bees and must treat. They are my co-workers.
i know about the difficult circumstances of the yearlong propagating of weak stock, making extinct all ferals.
Still, the treatments, organic or not, set free genetics by treated bees which will not have a chance to survive. In the long run I hope the first step will be not to treat prophylactically, the next step a soft bond approach, leading to hard bond.
The commercial beekeepers and the hobbyists must have access to more resistant stock and it?s starting. If a queen costs 500 to 1000? this never starts.
So associations plan to include beekeepers in their resistant breeding programms, an action long waited for because the science is not interested.
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What is "Organic"? If it is found in nature it is organic, by some definitions. If it is found in nature and is used for some other purpose it is organic or not by other opinions. The definitions go on and on depending on personal opinions and much to often on politics. I think we have common ground by agreeing that organic honey probably does not exist except in very remote areas. Maybe this should be a new thread. I should have checked for organic as this is mentioned in many other places in Beemaster.
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@THP: If you average on the "viable" hives with beginning of flow...
....what`s the percentage of viable hives to wintered colonies the year before? Of course incl. all nucs.
Depends ... how much munching the mites do over winter, how cold and how long the winter has been, stores level, super microbe epidemics, etc, etc. I interpret what you are really asking as what are the winter losses. Anywhere from 5% to 95% can happen, crap happens eh. Though typical is 5%-15%.
For numbers and modelling, see my comments in the other forum thread here which is titled: ... Plans for Next Year ...
To add clarity, or perhaps confusion, : Number of wintered hives is irrelevant. Number of hives yet to be made from splits and nucs is irrelevant. Viable means a hive that has survived the winter, is fully functioning and fully self sufficient, and of acceptable strength to put into production for the season. Viable count = those hives that are left after all the spring work is completed, on the call date. Any splits/nucs that are taken later; those are all about -next year- apiary and thus are not counted in assessing current year honey yield.
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Just a bit on the organic theme, In Oz you have to have no farm land within a 5km radius of your hives to get Organic certification.
Sites are checked by an independent person.
No treatments are allowed, though we don't have Varroa to contend with.
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I use organic acids, nothing else.
It doesn't matter what you are using. The point is you are using a chemical as a pesticide. If you were to print what pesticides you are using right under the organic label the odds are people would not pay a premium for the honey even though it is certified organic.
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I agree with Ace.
When I sold my honey at the christmas market I sold it as treatment free, like it was.
All persons who purchased a bottle never knew that bees are treated.
My bee class mentor who sells organic honey said you get the certificate if you practise a certain kind of management, no excluders, no foundations, no queens introduced...a more natural kind of beekeeping.
That was the "demeter" label. He gives informations on his label that the honey might be coming from sprayed areas.
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I use organic acids, nothing else.
It doesn't matter what you are using. The point is you are using a chemical as a pesticide. If you were to print what pesticides you are using right under the organic label the odds are people would not pay a premium for the honey even though it is certified organic.
O well. Whatever.
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It has been interesting to watch this thread originating as asking about a populous hive to degrade into discussion of treatment free and organic immaterial hyperboles .......
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HP this thread did not DEGRADE rather evolved is a better word.
I find the beeks from across the pond to educational and interesting. Yes there is drift from the subject, happens all the time, but not degrading by any means: enlightening is another good word to discribe my buds in Germany; er uh oh yes, we have a lady contributing to this thread so instead of buds I say efriends across the pond.
Blessings
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FWIW - as the OP here, I've enjoyed watching the twists and turns this thread has taken.
I have a lot to learn, and several interesting things have come out here.
Thank you to all that have contributed.
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... but, from what I've seen, I'm convinced (for now) that Packing a hive to high density has a positive impact on the overall health, vibrance, and pest resistance of a colony. I intend to test that theory in the upcoming year.
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Mr. Cool, agreed on the packed hive plan. However make sure the queen cells to lay in.
On a study I read of packed bees and swarming triggers. The issue of bees bumping into each other for lack of room appeared to be the biggest determining factor in swarming as conclude by the authors. My personal experiences with swarming is more determined by the queen lacking cells to lay in.
I deter searming by providing space: providing empty waxed out frames for the queen, adding deeps, even splits. In my area, May is the month I must watch closely or hives swarm. I am not saying hives will not swarm in say April, June, or July, rather May is the main month.
Blessings
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Stinger - sounds good. Thanks for the input.
Question: what is the problem with allowing Swarming?
All of my TF friends hive increases come from swarming. (He never does splits).
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Question: what is the problem with allowing Swarming?
IMO there's nothing wrong with allowing swarming, except for the ones that get away. Making splits is more controlled. You're moving bees from one box to another, not trying to coax them out of a tree.
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Look up sight lining honey bees I?ve got 3 wild cut outs from feral bees. Never treat them barely inspect them and these hives have been with me for 4 years now. Varroa count is low hive beetles are so so wax moths non existent. Bought bees= treatment pm me if you need details. Just my .02 -j
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Bernhard Heuvel makes a series of "adjusted breeding area", means packed hive, in our bee magazine.
The broodnest areas are adjusted to the laying ability of the queen. Such a hive seems to have more foragers and few nurse bees, so produce good honey harvest.
I found interesting what he said about swarming.
This quote is out of his first article. The next will be in february, if you are interested i will update.
Effect of adjusted brood area:
-compact brood nest:
few nurse bees necessary
cozy
swarm urge low
Bees are getting older
big bee mass
unmatched breeding area:
more nurse bees necessary
colder
swarm urge high
Bees die earlier
normal sized colonies
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Please update, but I think it is funny that bees live longer in the colder season. It is foraging that shortens their life not cold.
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Please update, but I think it is funny that bees live longer in the colder season. It is foraging that shortens their life not cold.
It?s not about the cold season, it?s about beekeeping in season. I think it will be about expanding and reducing a hive and how to do it.
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Please update, but I think it is funny that bees live longer in the colder season. It is foraging that shortens their life not cold.
Agreed. I believe it said/written somewhere that a Bee has a 100 mile wear limit. As the miles ratchet up, her stuff wears out. Like the car that sits in the garage and driven only on Sundays will last a very long time, whereas the tires, shocks, bearings, etc on the daily driver soon fall apart.
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.... The broodnest areas are adjusted to the laying ability of the queen....
If I understand correctly, this is what BeePro has stated also. Which is why he is using 5 frame deep nuc's with a QE above the bottom box. Based on a queens laying ability, that area is the maximum size needed for the queen - which makes the remainder of the hive more efficient. .... if I've understood him correctly.
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... I?ve got 3 wild cut outs from feral bees. Never treat them barely inspect them and these hives have been with me for 4 years now. Varroa count is low hive beetles are so so wax moths non existent. ....
This matches my observations. These [types of] bees, once they reach an incredibly "packed" status, seem to be able to deal with all manner of pests in a "sustainable" way - for years on end.
My friend adds a supper (and harvests one) in May. (That's pretty much the end of the 'main' flow here.) Last year I told him to check that (new) supper in mid June. He did - it was drawn and full - he hadn't believed me till he saw it with his own eyes. Pointedly - he argued with me, before doing it, because he didn't "think so" and didn't want to enter the hive. (It was a guess on my part).
I think he could harvest 3 or more suppers off of each of those hives, if it were timed right.
Beekeeping, hobbyist and commercial, needs a "cure-all". ... Maybe, just maybe, if we took Feral Bees, allowed them to "pack up the hive" for a year or two, the formula might emerge where disease/pest resistance and honey production were joined together.
... from Michael Bush, I learned one over-riding lesson [paraphrased], "the bees know what to do, and what's best - let them do it" (hopefully I understood his points correctly)
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Furthermore, I picked up the following take-aways from reading much of Randy Oliver's writings:
1 - all Hygienic traits come from the queen. There is no reason to punish an entire colony because of a bad queen.
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2 - if you dont know what is actually happening inside your hives, you won't know if you have Hygienic trait queens, or where you don't have them. You won't be able to cull Queens that should be, nor promote genetics of Queens that you should. So perform Alcohol Washes and inspections, until you "know".
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3 - No hygienic Queen/Hive can survive the influx of pests and diseases associated with Mite Bombs going off in other hives nearby (yours or others).
With all of these thoughts, combined with loosing all my hives in 2016/2017, ... I went out, located "Local Survivor Stock Untreated" bees (starting Feb 11 2018). ... inspections in Nov showed all my hives near Crash/Colapse levels (DWV/near total Mite infestation levels, etc).
I have observed Hygienic traits in these (my) hives.
So I began to analyze, "what we're the observable differences between my friends hives, and mine?". ... the Bee Density of the hives (Bees per SQ Inch) between his and mine, struck me. Thus my question regarding Packed Hives.
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Very good posts, CoolBees, thank you!
Beekeeping, hobbyist and commercial, needs a "cure-all". ... Maybe, just maybe, if we took Feral Bees, allowed them to "pack up the hive" for a year or two, the formula might emerge where disease/pest resistance and honey production were joined together.
You can do with your stock the same if you have no ferals around. Keep the best like ferals and let them throw drones to influence the genetics of your environement.
I really look forward what Bernhard has to say about his experience. He is a well known experienced beekeeper, started with natural kept tf bees and now, if I?m right informed, went to be a honey producer. I heard he treats his migrated production colonies but breed his queens in a tf enterprise.