Author Topic: Shotty Brood (Read 2688 times)

Oldbeavo · « **on:** December 24, 2019, 05:19:49 pm »

I know this has been discussed in other threads but I would like to propose a different view that may be torn to pieces.
If you have a hive that has shotty brood for other reasons than a failing queen or poorly mated queen, poor nutrition, chalk brood or larval removal for whatever reason.
So we have shotty brood, the queen comes along and relays in the spaces left, these grow and are capped, but the original brood now hatches and leaves some spaces, which the queen comes back and fills the gaps.
The queen who is a good layer is now stuck in the cycle of the appearance shotty brood.
As a BK who does not have the time to monitor individual hives, we come along doing inspections and find shotty brood and replace the queen, are we being too tough?
My latest thoughts are to give the shotty hive a couple of empty frames (already drawn) and check what the queen does. Does she continue with her shotty pattern or do the new frames break the cycle.

iddee · « **Reply #1 on:** December 24, 2019, 05:42:58 pm »

To me, shotty brood means empty cells. If all or most of the cells have live brood, whether open or capped, she is laying well. One look into the open cells of shotty brood tells me if there is a queen problem or disease problem.

Live brood, good queen.
empty cells, bad queen.
Disease can be found in the remaining brood.

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #2 on:** December 24, 2019, 06:20:56 pm »

I agree 100% with iddee method. One look through and done. Off to the next hive.

In a case where not sure what to do, and have time to tinker with it. Then can try those two empty frames of drawn comb and come back later may be a way to go. With some kind of marker on the hive for the next pass.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 25, 2019, 02:24:53 am »

What THP and Iddee said.
With that said, last year I had a really bad case of snotty brood. I first spotted it in my observation hive. I kept noticing that I had lots of eggs and wet larvae but almost not capped brood. This went on and on and the hive population was shrinking. Then I started looking at my field hives and found several with the same problem. I ended up calling my bee inspector for help.
Jim Altmiller

CoolBees · « **Reply #4 on:** December 25, 2019, 04:25:58 am »

Quote from: sawdstmakr on December 25, 2019, 02:24:53 am

What THP and Iddee said.
With that said, last year I had a really bad case of snotty brood. I first spotted it in my observation hive. I kept noticing that I had lots of eggs and wet larvae but almost not capped brood. This went on and on and the hive population was shrinking. Then I started looking at my field hives and found several with the same problem. I ended up calling my bee inspector for help.
Jim Altmiller

Jim - if you don't mind sharing, what was the solution for the hives that had this problem?

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 25, 2019, 11:52:58 am »

Quote from: CoolBees on December 25, 2019, 04:25:58 am

Quote from: sawdstmakr on December 25, 2019, 02:24:53 am
What THP and Iddee said.
With that said, last year I had a really bad case of snotty brood. I first spotted it in my observation hive. I kept noticing that I had lots of eggs and wet larvae but almost not capped brood. This went on and on and the hive population was shrinking. Then I started looking at my field hives and found several with the same problem. I ended up calling my bee inspector for help.
Jim Altmiller

Jim - if you don't mind sharing, what was the solution for the hives that had this problem?

Per my bee Inspecter, I put 70% one to one sugar water and 30% apple cider vinegar water in a one quart spray bottle and on a weekly basis I sprayed it across the top of the brood frames once a week. Some of the hives didn?t make it but about half of them did. It was probably to late for those that didn?t. I don?t think any of them would have made it without the spray.
By the way the remedy came from a commercial queen raising Beek that uses this spray pretty regularly.
Jim Altmiller

van from Arkansas · « **Reply #6 on:** December 25, 2019, 11:54:46 am »

Quote from: sawdstmakr on December 25, 2019, 02:24:53 am

What THP and Iddee said.
With that said, last year I had a really bad case of snotty brood. I first spotted it in my observation hive. I kept noticing that I had lots of eggs and wet larvae but almost not capped brood. This went on and on and the hive population was shrinking. Then I started looking at my field hives and found several with the same problem. I ended up calling my bee inspector for help.
Jim Altmiller

Puzzling Jim.

Ants
Disease, most likely viral
Genetics
Brood chill

These are four possible reasons. The last three have same outcome, the nurse bees remove or eat the larva. I hope your ordeal, in 2018, was easily solved.

Enjoy the holidays, Administrator!!
Van

Add; Apple cider vinegar???? My bees hate the stuff. I put the vinegar in moth and hornet traps and the honeybee stay away from the traps containing sugar syrup and a banana peel.

iddee · « **Reply #7 on:** December 25, 2019, 12:30:12 pm »

Confusing, Jim. What ratio is the sugar water, and what ratio is the vinegar water?

Or are you saying 70% 50-50 sugar water and 30% pure vinegar? Please explain.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 26, 2019, 12:19:04 am »

Yes Iddee. It is made of 70% of one part sugar and one part water and 30% apple cider vinegar.
Jim Altmiller

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #9 on:** December 26, 2019, 02:33:21 am »

What was the idea, purpose, of the cider?

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 26, 2019, 09:39:28 am »

Quote from: TheHoneyPump on December 26, 2019, 02:33:21 am

What was the idea, purpose, of the cider?

I?m not sure THP. According to my inspector, it helps to keep the bees healthy and build more brood. He said the commercial beek used it on a regular basis.
Jim Altmiller

paus · « **Reply #11 on:** December 26, 2019, 11:38:46 am »

I HAVE READ SOMEWHERE THAT HONEY IS A LITTLE ON THE ACID SIDE SO I STARTED USING A LITTLE APPLE CIDER VINAGAR AND FOOD FRESH WHICH SUPPLIES SOME VITAMIN . THERE IS NOTHING IN FRUIT FRESH BUT, I REMEMBER NOW ascorbic ACID, WHICH IS VITAMIN C, DEXTROOSE, AND SOME INERT NON CAKING SUBSTA NCE USUALLY SAND. AFTER ALL OF THIS, VINAGAR LOWERS THE pH WHICH IS HEALTHIER FOR THE BEES.

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #12 on:** December 26, 2019, 12:45:04 pm »

Fyi, Only time I use vinegar/cider is in wasp and hornet trap bait. Never for my bees.

If dealing with an outbreak of idiopathic brood disease, one may be inclined to try various things. As with IBD, the specific cause is unknown or not lab diagnosed at the time. In such a case I could understand how a vinegar/cider sprayed onto the bees and combs may be helpful. IBD can have combined and compounding causes; bacterial, fungal, viral. Most of those pathogens can be controlled (killed)by low PH, the acid. The acid spray works on contact to reduce pathogen load. I suggest that a dose of OA or Formic will have the better acidic effect with added bonus of mite control. (NB formic is like a very strong concentrated vinegar.)

The case Jim described; we see occasionally. Lab analysis always reports back as EFB exacerbated by viral load (eg; sac brood). A shot of OAV, OA drench or Formic clears it up, along with a good flow or feed syrup. The alternate of the vinegar/cider acid spray as suggested by the inspector can be helpful if one is not setup with those other treatment methods. However, I hope the comments made steers one to reach for the OA instead.

As for adding cider/vinegar to syrup to make the feed bucket more acidic to be supposedly better for the bee, I shall have to call that out for what it is - a bucket load of BS or perhaps simply misunderstanding of the purpose and method. To clarify, use the vinegar/cider remedy as a spray-drench treatment for cases of IBD. Not intended a feed additive.

paus · « **Reply #13 on:** December 26, 2019, 04:47:43 pm »

Only the facts. Honey has a pH of 3.9 average. Sugar syrup has a pH of the same pH the water used to dissolve the sugar, with extremely small variance. Three cents worth of vinegar may bring the pH of the simple syrup down closer to natural honey, the bees like it and it can do no possible harm Anyway it makes me more comfortable.

MikeyN.C. · « **Reply #14 on:** December 26, 2019, 05:25:08 pm »

Who would have ggiven feral bee's vinegar ? Just asking.

MikeyN.C. · « **Reply #15 on:** December 26, 2019, 06:07:01 pm »

Are we at a point, when we can't treat ?

MikeyN.C. · « **Reply #16 on:** December 26, 2019, 06:18:44 pm »

Meaning is there still a good % of wild bees, to sustaine , population and those bee's live ? And quick breeds (nucs) being bought every yr. , can live with out OA ?

Oldbeavo · « **Reply #17 on:** December 26, 2019, 06:19:35 pm »

We use a little citric acid in syrup mainly as a preservative, so if you don't sue it all the mould doesn't grow.
Does reducing the pH to about 4.5-5, about the same as lemonade, invert the sucrose back to fructose and glucose?

MikeyN.C. · « **Reply #18 on:** December 26, 2019, 07:01:43 pm »

Tought bee's invert ?

paus · « **Reply #19 on:** December 26, 2019, 07:59:35 pm »

Somewhere I missed something. I only use vinegar in one of several types of in hive FEEDING methods. I sprinkled some vinegar on sugar and stirred it before putting it on a newspaper on the top of the frames in the second box.

Troutdog · « **Reply #20 on:** December 27, 2019, 08:31:49 am »

Vinegar or acetic acid is very useful in storing combs and disinfecting nosema c and a spores. (Glacial acetic acidv95%)
As to syrup usage questionable
A better choice to lower ph is malic or ascorbic acids.
Very high in potassium vinegar is not highly regarded by bees and the smell makes em pissy around here.
Potassium can be good but winter feed needs to be ultra clean so less need for cleansing flights.

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