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Author Topic: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?  (Read 4705 times)

Online Ben Framed

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Have you ever wondered why sometimes there can be multiple queens in a swarm?  Some experts who have told me of these happenings, also tell me that the queens are mostly mated queens! In fact either Joe May or David at Barnyard Bee told me they have found at least 80 percent of the queens which they have found in one swarm to mated on average. No one has yet to convince me why this happens. David, whom I have great respect for, theorizes that when one swarm swarms, it may stimulate others to swarm also thus incorporating or combining these into one swarm. Now keep in mind David has hundreds of bee hives, mostly nucs, in each of his apiaries. He raises bees for sale, not honey. He makes his profit off of bees themselves as does Joe May. This may be true in some cases, about swarms combining, but I really doubt that as many as nine mated queens would be found in one swarm by these circumstances, even with so many hives present. That would mean there would be nine swarms combining at one time which I can't help but doubt.  Mr Bush gave a theory as to why this happens on a recent and previous topic that deserves attention. But still leaves some questions.
Do any of you have theories of why this phenomenon happens? If so please share so we can discuss and learn together. All theories are important as we are still learning of this, all answers are relevant in my opinion.
Thanks,
Phillip Hall
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14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online cao

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2019, 12:53:02 pm »
I don't know about multiple mated queens in a swarm unless swarms combine.  But having multiple virgins is easy to explain.  A strong hive prepares to swarm.  Produces lots of queen cells.  The swarm gets delayed due to weather.  Queen cells are hatching.  Nurse bees keeping queens trapped in cells.  In the chaos of the bees finally swarming, the queens escape and go along for the ride.  That is what I think happened to me this spring as we had a very wet spring and it seemed whenever we got a break in the weather there would be swarms out.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2019, 01:25:22 pm »
Phil, where did the Story of 9 mated queens in one swarm originate?  I am not understanding where the 9 came from.  Previous post maybe?
van
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2019, 04:27:41 pm »
Phil, where did the Story of 9 mated queens in one swarm originate?  I am not understanding where the 9 came from.  Previous post maybe?
van

No sir, it is not from a story, it is on video for all the world to see. And videos are where I have found much of the information of multiple queens in a single swarm. The nine comes from David at barnyard bees. However I did mention it on another post recently, along with some others with similar findings. Reputable solid folks. I will copy and add here. Now, the most that I have ever heard of is nine, caught by David, and I thought it was worth mentioning. Most everyone knows Shawnee as he use to post here with his buddy JP The beeman. Schawee mentioned catching 6. I do not remember if Schawee said specifically if his were mated or not. I watched that video some time ago about two years ago or close to it. I also mentioned Langaford at Woolie bees, he is the one who originally told of the PVC portals to stop SHB. Also Joe May. and others.

The following is what I posted mentioning these folks sometime last week under a different topic along with a different question.


Topic Being
(Have any of you experienced finding multiple queens in a swarm? )
My first post ask and said the following. The reason I posted this here I was wondering if our beemaster members have experienced the same. I have not as of yet had the experience of catching multiple queens in a swarm. But to my pleasant surprise some here at beemaster have had the experience of catching multiple queens in a swarm. As you probably read yourself.

''Have any of you experienced catching multiple queens in a swarm? There are many reports form reputable beekeepers who not only say it is possible but have experienced as much! I will give a list of just a few. Barnyard Bees, New River Honey Bees, HONEYBEE HIGHWAY, JustBeecuz, schawee, Liz Jones, 628DirtRooster Bees, and Scott Benack Bee Removal just for starters. I am thinking that I talked to Joe May also about this but my memory is cloudy. But regardless, David at Barnyard bees caught 9 in one swarm! Schawee caught 6 and etc.''

Mr Van have you experienced catching multiple queens in a single swarm? I would like to also hear from your experience with these questions.
Thanks.
Phillip
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 07:47:30 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2019, 05:42:00 pm »
Interesting Mr.Phil;

Phil, I have little experiences with swarms, 2019 none, 2018 two, of which one abscond, Sept. feral beautiful carni queen, 2017 none, 2016 none.  I forget after that. I breed for genetics against swarming so this is very rare at my apiary.

Also I am state inspected apiary so I would have to quarantine if I brought in a swarm, kinda a pain.  There are so many beetles in this area, feral bees are rare.

To sum it all up, I have zero experience with cut outs, very little experience with swarms.  When a boy, I would gather any swarm I could find, but back then, I assumed one swarm, one queen so I did not even look.

Blessings
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2019, 06:08:45 pm »
Mr Van,
Thank you for your response. I have had little experience with swarms either. I did catch a couple this past season, on the second one I shook them out as David showed in his video using a sheet. He was catching them as they marched into the nuc box. I found only one queen. I would like to hear more replies from other members here and their experiences in catching swarms and multiple queens. Along with ideas as to why there are sometimes multiple queens in a single swarm.
I am of the opinion that most folks do not look for multiple queens in a swarm? The folks that do look and find, tell me that if all allowed to enter the box together, most of the time all but one is killed.

When you have the opportunity, check out on youtube, (barnyard bees 9 queens in one swarm),  that David put out. I believe you will find this video very interesting. In the comment section look for my name and you may find the discussion that David, Queenbee, and I had concerning this subject and ideas of this mystery. The mystery being, how can multiple queens survive long enough to make it to swarm together, and not have been killed when they emerged or hatched in the same box. What little experience I have had with queen cells, the first one hatched,kills all the rest, chewing a hole in the side of the remaining cells stinging the remaining ones, and that is all she wrote. So adding to the mystery how does the survivors live long enough to be mated and still live together to be able to swarm together? I have a theory. anyone else?

Blessings,
Phillip
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 06:39:16 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2019, 06:51:47 pm »
Yes Sir, Mr. Phil, I will look for the video.  I have watched many of David?s videos.

I have seen double queens in a hive, always in Spring.  Most likely a mother daughter combo which I split to avoid a swarm.  I have had virgin queen appear on the excluded side of a cloaked queen rearing hive.  I imagine I missed a queen cell.  And while slightly off subject, I have seen nurse bees attack a laying healthy queen.

And finally, making a nuc, I have combined frames of bees from 3 different hives along with a mature queen with her frame of larva and eggs, with no fighting, no newspaper, no spray to hide scent, no smoke.  A direct combine, but there is a trick to this or your bees will kill the queen and fight.  The queen MUST be a mature queen, successful layer, proven herself and above all confident.  Standard procedure by Brother Adam, but zero YouTube videos.  I don?t think this direct combine method is practiced for some reason.  I have not seen one YouTube video on queen confidence, or queen maturity, not one video.   Do the YouTube beeks not understand queen confidence?  There are beeks on Beemaster that understand these mature queens very well and how they differ from young mated or virgins.

Blessings
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2019, 07:50:15 pm »
I don't know about multiple mated queens in a swarm unless swarms combine.  But having multiple virgins is easy to explain.  A strong hive prepares to swarm.  Produces lots of queen cells.  The swarm gets delayed due to weather.  Queen cells are hatching.  Nurse bees keeping queens trapped in cells.  In the chaos of the bees finally swarming, the queens escape and go along for the ride.  That is what I think happened to me this spring as we had a very wet spring and it seemed whenever we got a break in the weather there would be swarms out.

Thanks for the input Cao.  Good theory. I appreciate you posting this. Stick around as we explore this further.
Again thanks,
Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online cao

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2019, 12:08:25 am »
If I remember Schawee's video correctly, he didn't say that they were mated queens.  I think that most were virgin queens.  As far as multiple mated queens in a single swarm, I think that would only happen if multiple swarms combined.  Nine mated queens would be hard for me to believe unless it came from a nuc yard where all the hives were small.  If nine normal swarms combined that would be a site to see.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2019, 12:25:22 am »
If I remember Schawee's video correctly, he didn't say that they were mated queens.  I think that most were virgin queens.  As far as multiple mated queens in a single swarm, I think that would only happen if multiple swarms combined.  Nine mated queens would be hard for me to believe unless it came from a nuc yard where all the hives were small.  If nine normal swarms combined that would be a site to see.

You may very well be right about Shewees video, It's been a couple years since I watched it, and yes, Davids yards are Nuc yards. Even still 9 different swarms combining at one time is alot. Even still  I have a lot of confidence in David as I have learned a whole lot from him. I did have a question for him about this in that very same video in the comment section below the video. Joe May is another. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 01:02:23 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2019, 12:44:06 am »
I have a question for you cao and or anyone else. I have LIMITED hands on experience in raising queens.  My experience is when there are multiple queen cells, only one virgin survives. As I stated earlier, I have found that the others have a hole chewed in the side of the cells and I assume the rest are stung to death? So even if bad weather, would not the strongest virgin survive? Leaving only one left to get out and mate when the weather is better?
Thanks,
Phillip 
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2019, 12:48:32 am »
Which brings another question, if the virgins tolerates one another, (multi virgins hatching and living together), until mating flights, what happens when they do, all go out and mate on their mating flights? Wouldn't  they each come back to the home hive before breaking out on their own with their own swarms from the home hive? Just as a single virgin per hive would come back home to start laying after mating?
Thanks, Phillip
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 01:01:43 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2019, 07:52:48 am »
I have a question for you cao and or anyone else. I have LIMITED hands on experience in raising queens.  My experience is when there are multiple queen cells, only one virgin survives. As I stated earlier, I have found that the others have a hole chewed in the side of the cells and I assume the rest are stung to death? So even if bad weather, would not the strongest virgin survive? Leaving only one left to get out and mate when the weather is better?
Thanks,
Phillip 

Phillip,
Tee reason a hive ends up with multiple capped queen cells is that the hive thinks it is strong enough to make multiple swarms and the bees keep the queens locked in their cells. As fast as the queen works to cut the cap open, the bees are sealing it back up. When they release a queen, they do not allow the queen to kill the other queens in the cells. When the swarm happens, it is chaotic and some of the bees that are keeping the queens locked in their cells stop and multiple queens escape. These queens have been fully developed in their cell for a week or more and are ready to fly. They leave with the swarm. Now you have multiple queens in a swarm. The queens do not fight until they get to the new hive location.
Jim Altmiller
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2019, 08:01:59 am »
As to having multiple mated queens, this probably only happens in large apiaries where multiple primary swarms happens at the same time. All of the bees are in the air at the same time and the first queen to land on a tree draws all of the bees to the same spot, including all of the mated queens.
Sometimes they will split to 2 locations when the queens land in different locations at the same time.
I have been called out to swarms where there were 2 cluster of bees 20 feet apart and both had queens in them.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2019, 09:57:57 am »
Thanks Jim and Cao. This information about queens being locked in their cells is brand new information to me. I have never heard of this happening until this topic. How long will the nurse bees keep these virgins locked up? How long can these virgins survive being locked up? This y'all are describing, sounds like natures way of banking virgins?

Back to the original intent of the bees setting up multiple swarming. How does this work? I am going to guess and assume  when things go according to bee plans, the bees turn one virgin loose? Allow her make her mating flight, return mated, gather enough bees and swarm, leaving the home hive making a new independent colony somewhere else. Then the nurse bees release one more virgin and the process is repeated until all multiple swarming is accomplished? Thanks for you both for your patience and sharing your knowledge.
Phillip



.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 12:04:36 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2019, 11:30:36 am »
Thanks Jim and Cao. This information about queens being locked in their cells is brand new information to me. I have never heard of this happening until this topic. How long will the nurse bees keep these virgins locked up? How long can these virgins survive being locked up? This y'all are describing, sounds like natures way of banking virgins?

Back to the original intent of the bees setting up multiple swarming. How does this work? I am going to guess and assume  when things go according to bee plans, the bees turn one virgin loose? let her make her mating flight, return, gather enough bees and swarm, leaving the home hive making a new independent colony, then the nurse bees release one more virgin and the process is repeated until all multiple swarming is accomplished? Thanks for you both for your patience and sharing your knowledge.
Phillip

Let me add. Jeff Horchoff of Saint Francis Abby in Louisiana is popular for his swarm catching abilities. Jeff puts out swarm traps in locations where he has done cuts. There is one location in particular that he uses as his honey hole trap location. Each year he consistently catches multiple swarms at this location. In fact, the has multiple swarm boxes placed there and sometimes most of these boxes are occupied when he goes back and checks on them in the spring. Jim and Cao, your explanation may explain or help explain this situation.
Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2019, 09:45:30 pm »
Phillip,
I haven?t seen it but I would be willing to bet the bees are feeding the queens as they are guarding them and keeping them locked in. The only limit is how long they have until they mate.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2019, 12:21:50 am »
Phillip,
I haven?t seen it but I would be willing to bet the bees are feeding the queens as they are guarding them and keeping them locked in. The only limit is how long they have until they mate.
Jim Altmiller

Thank you Jim, Cao, Mr Van.  It certainly looks like nature learned to bank virgins before mankind did!! Good information friends. Thanks for taking the time to respond and educate.
Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online cao

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2019, 01:10:33 am »
Back to the original intent of the bees setting up multiple swarming. How does this work? I am going to guess and assume  when things go according to bee plans, the bees turn one virgin loose? Allow her make her mating flight, return mated, gather enough bees and swarm, leaving the home hive making a new independent colony somewhere else. Then the nurse bees release one more virgin and the process is repeated until all multiple swarming is accomplished? Thanks for you both for your patience and sharing your knowledge.
Phillip

In large hives that are going to swarm multiple times, the first swarm is with the original queen.  This usually happens around the time that the queen cells are capped.  Leaving about a week for the virgins to hatch.  If the hive doesn't want to swarm again, the virgins hatch and fight it out until only one left.  That's when you see the sides of the queen cell cut out.  If the hive is going to swarm a second or third time, the first virgin(s) takes flight with the swarm.  That swarm finds a new home then the queen goes out on her mating flights.  The remaining queens settle thing among themselves after they are done swarming. 

In my case this spring, weather delayed the first swarm until the virgins were hatching which created a lot of confusion. 

As far as how long they are kept in the cells, I would say a few days to maybe a week at most.  I don't see any need for them to keep the locked in longer than that.  There is the need for the queen to get mated and start laying fairly quickly.


Online Ben Framed

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Re: Have You Wondered Why There Can Sometimes Be Multiple Queens in a Swarm?
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2019, 02:35:11 pm »
Quoting form Coolbees  topic: Mite count zero Reply 8 Dec 17
{''H7 - was weird - 100% of the bees were jammed into the bottom box (5 medium frames), even though there were stores in the upper boxes. In the 4 frames that I inspected, I counted over 20 fully capped QC's! ... and brood in all stages. To my limited experience, it looked like they were getting ready to swarm - not that they have enough bees to to so, and the weather would kill them. Anyways, I reduced them to 2 boxes, and moved 1 brood frame up 1 box. ... we shall see.''}

@ Jim and Cao, from the information that you gave earlier, about virgins being locked in their cells after hatching in bad or cooler weather etc., what can Coolbees expect? Especially being its December. Cool had said somewhere it rarely gets below freezing in his location.

@ Alan, please keep us updated on this interesting situation with the early, (Before the Solstice), queen cells
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 02:54:25 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.