drone brood in honey super

[rgennaro]

So last week I moved some frames from the brood box into a honey super separated by a queen excluder. The frames looked full of honey ... did not see any brood in them (they were from the hive that was getting honeybound due to possibly swarming and the new queen not laying for a while). Yesterday when I checked the hive there were a couple of those frames with drone brood. One frame had the drone brood at the bottom, the other had it in the middle. While I understand that I might have missed a few eggs/larvae when I moved the frames, what I don't understand is why they were all drone ones. The rest of the hive is doing well. The new queen got going and there is lots of new brood.

[.30WCF]

That would be because they were unfertilized eggs.


That?s a joke. What kind of comb is it? Natural or worker foundation? Had it been worker cells before? Are the cells immediately around it slightly larger and getting smaller as they radiate outwards from the drone brood? Was the comb damaged at some point and they rebuilt it as drone in those areas?


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[Ben Framed]

Hi rgennaro, I would like to add  a few questions.

>So last week I moved some frames from the brood box into a honey super separated by a queen excluder.

What did you replace the space left behind in the brood area with? Drawn comb, frames of foundation, foundationless, other? Apparently it helped because at the end of your post you report "The rest of the hive is doing well. The new queen got going and there is lots of new brood." 
That is a good thing!

>The frames looked full of honey ...did not see any brood in them they were from the hive that was getting honeybound
 
It is not unusual to find a few frames which are (almost) all honey, having a 'small' area of brood in hives without queen excluders this time of year. Is all or nearly all this drone brood capped?   

>The new queen got going and there is lots of new brood.

Is the new brood in the bottom mostly worker brood of different stages, eggs, larva and capped brood?

>The frames looked full of honey

As you say the frames looked full of honey. If they were full of honey they would not have room for the drone brood unless the bees moved the honey down making special room for this brood in the top, which is unlikely. Since the queen is down below the excluder she could not lay these unfertilized drone eggs. As you probably already know, hatching eggs are fed jelly for the larva to feed on. When first hatched and very small, it can look shiny in the bottom of the cells. Is it possible that you mistook the area where the brood is located as un-capped shiny nectar at that time?

>While I understand that I might have missed a few eggs/larvae when I moved the frames, what I don't understand is why they were all drone ones.

Being the brood area was getting honey bound as you described, the queen would lay unfertilized drone eggs in preparation for near future swarm mode. I have noticed before swarming you will find drone brood. With the frames being crowded, she might have used the little available space in the honeycomb for this purpose just before you moved the frames up. You might have warded a swarm off as you added space in the brood area by moving honey bound brood comb up as you also stated, "the queen has went back to laying". I would again check the brood area for queen cells. Also you will need to remove the QE as the hatching drones will not be able to pass through the QE and will be trapped above unless you have an additional top entrance. As these drones hatch, the bees will fill this space with honey, (as long as you have a flow going on), since you now have plenty of room in your brood area for the queen to take care of business.

[Robo]

So last week I moved some frames from the brood box into a honey super separated by a queen excluder. The frames looked full of honey ... did not see any brood in them (they were from the hive that was getting honeybound due to possibly swarming and the new queen not laying for a while). Yesterday when I checked the hive there were a couple of those frames with drone brood. One frame had the drone brood at the bottom, the other had it in the middle. While I understand that I might have missed a few eggs/larvae when I moved the frames, what I don't understand is why they were all drone ones. The rest of the hive is doing well. The new queen got going and there is lots of new brood.

It is very common to get drone brood on the bottom of frames.  Most beekeepers don't give the bees an area to raise drones and the best they can do is draw bigger cells at the bottom of the foundation.   On occasion they will successfully diverge from the foundation pattern and put it in the middle of the frame as well.  There is nothing abnormal about what you are seeing.   Just make sure you have an entrance above the queen excluder for the drones to get out, otherwise you will have a bunch of dead drones in the excluder.   

[Michael Bush]

When the brood nest is old comb and almost all worker brood, the queen gets desperate to raise drones.  Old comb is hard to rework (the cocoons make it hard to tear down) so they rework some of the comb in the supers that doesn't have cocoons and the queen lays drones in them.  I don't have this problem because I let them have 20% drone comb in most every box.  There is plenty of drone comb in the brood nest so they don't bother with the supers.

[woodedareas]

I agree with Robo. I just extracted about 200 frames and about 7 had drone brood. When possible I scrap it off or return the frames to the hives. This is a natural process and does occur occasionally especially for those of us who do not use queen excluders. I guess drone brood frames would help. It gives me a chance to examine the pupa for mites.

[Ben Framed]

I agree with Robo. I just extracted about 200 frames and about 7 had drone brood. When possible I scrap it off or return the frames to the hives. This is a natural process and does occur occasionally especially for those of us who do not use queen excluders. I guess drone brood frames would help. It gives me a chance to examine the pupa for mites.

Good post and welcome woodedareas.. There is a huge commercial beekeeper a couple states east of me who places a green drone frame in his brood area.... He says for the purpose of dissuading distorting worker brood comb, from converting it to drone comb. Sounds good to me.

[Robo]

Good post and welcome woodedareas.. There is a huge commercial beekeeper a couple states east of me who places a green drone frame in his brood area.... He says for the purpose of dissuading distorting worker brood comb, from converting it to drone comb. Sounds good to me.

I also find it helps reduce burr comb between boxes (in some hives).  I guess they don't feel the need to force drone comb when they have enough elsewhere.

[rast]

I use wax starter strips on wired wood frames, they make all the drone cells they want and I have very little burr comb, I do occasionally get the errant bees that I have to correct the comb on however. I don't use excluders and had a couple of frames with some drone brood in my supers this year. 

[.30WCF]

I didn?t have any trouble out of the hives I put medium crimped wire foundation in my deep frames and added cross wire for extra support. They drew worker comb on the foundation and the bottom couple inches ( natural comb ) was drone brood. No issues in the medium supers.


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[BeeMaster2]

Wooded,
Welcome to Beemaster.
 I try to keep natural, foundation less frames in the brood area. This allows them to build as muc drone comb as they need.
Jim Altmiller

[woodedareas]

I agree with Robo. I just extracted about 200 frames and about 7 had drone brood. When possible I scrap it off or return the frames to the hives. This is a natural process and does occur occasionally especially for those of us who do not use queen excluders. I guess drone brood frames would help. It gives me a chance to examine the pupa for mites.

Good post and welcome woodedareas.. There is a huge commercial beekeeper a couple states east of me who places a green drone frame in his brood area.... He says for the purpose of dissuading distorting worker brood comb, from converting it to drone comb. Sounds good to me.

I also have used the green drone frames and find they work. Just have to remember to check them and take them out. Hard to do with many colonies.

[TheHoneyPump]

So last week I moved some frames from the brood box into a honey super separated by a queen excluder. The frames looked full of honey ... did not see any brood in them (they were from the hive that was getting honeybound due to possibly swarming and the new queen not laying for a while). Yesterday when I checked the hive there were a couple of those frames with drone brood. One frame had the drone brood at the bottom, the other had it in the middle. While I understand that I might have missed a few eggs/larvae when I moved the frames, what I don't understand is why they were all drone ones. The rest of the hive is doing well. The new queen got going and there is lots of new brood.

What is not mentioned, and probably the most likely scenario, is that there may have been a 2nd (or more) virgin queen roaming around that wound up trapped above the QE with the frame moves. Not able to get out, she would have timed out for mating and become drone layer. Eventually started laying drone brood up there. That solidly explains your scenario. When you go to take these frames and supers off, look closely for her so as to not wind up with a royal conflict in the main brood nest and loss of the main queen later through hive manipulations or end of season removal of the QE. With the new queen below doing well now, the bees may dispatch the DL in the attic for you before you get around to looking. So you may or may not find her. If she's been terminated by the bees, you may see parts of her carcass stuck in the QE, but more than likely they've chopped her up and tossed out before you get there. ..

For your considerations.
Hope that helps!

PS:  Also a sidebar note to any of the readers about this time.  (Mid-Late summer period). When you go into the hives and doing manipulations, put your second eyeball to work to spot that second queen. This is the time period that supercedures take place seamlessly and un-noticed by the beekeeper. More often than you think, there are two queens going in unison in the hives at this time. So you are doing any nest manipulations and moving bees/frames around, look very closely for them. Or ensure that any frames being moved are shook off first. If you are only ever looking for the paint dot, you are going to miss that second queen every time and be thinking - man, that is a really awesome queen in that hive! - OR - why is there brood here? She must have got through the QE. -  .. When in fact, there are two queens working in there.

[Bob Wilson]

HP. I figured that colonies didn't make queens this time of year. Or perhaps just not here in Georgia in the middle of dearth. Can I requeen my hives in summer dearth? Will they make a nice fat queen without a honey flow and fewer drones, or a skinny, ill mated queen?

[TheHoneyPump]

Requeening with a caged mated queen can be done anytime.

[.30WCF]

HP. I figured that colonies didn't make queens this time of year. Or perhaps just not here in Georgia in the middle of dearth. Can I requeen my hives in summer dearth? Will they make a nice fat queen without a honey flow and fewer drones, or a skinny, ill mated queen?

I?m about to find out about queen size if all goes well. The dearth is starting to end here. I?m starting to see some goldenrod. Had a hive swarm last week. There were capped cells in there the day after the swarm. Maybe I?ll get a queen to come back. If not I?ll drop a nuc on them.


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[FloridaGardener]

@ Bob Wilson -
My biggest hives have put out lots of drones in late June/mid July. Now in the beginning of August are getting packed out, building up again after the brood break (peak nectar) and the queen takes a break. 

I'm using all mediums.  To stop a swarm, I put the 2nd layer of brood onto another bottom board.  And add an empty box, move up some honey frames, and see what happens.  Seem to work for the last couple of years, no mating problems.

In one colony, there were still queens in each new hive, therefore a 2-queen hive and I got one in each box. (Score!)  In others, now plenty of Q cells.  Assuming the drones live 6 weeks, we are good through September 1st at least. 

I made up some new nucs, and put up the internet ad to sell nucs again.  Goldenrod is shooting up and it's going to be a good fall crop. 

Since new beeks feed their nucs all fall, they are ready to boom in spring.

[Bob Wilson]

FLA Gardener,
I think I will wait to breed new queens until spring. I am still trying to figure out how to overwinter a 5 frame nuc with an established queen, much less a new one.

[.30WCF]

FLA Gardener,
I think I will wait to breed new queens until spring. I am still trying to figure out how to overwinter a 5 frame nuc with an established queen, much less a new one.

I over wintered two nucs last year. I just did the fall OA treatments, and they went into winter with a bix of honey. They came out just fine, boomed in the spring and split again.


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[Beeboy01]

FLA Gardener, if you set the nucs up so they get full sun on the sides of the box during the day it will really help get them through the colder part of the winter. Beside that make sure they have enough food, are strong and up to date for mite treatments.