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Author Topic: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.  (Read 4853 times)

Offline The15thMember

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I have one hive that has been doing so well this year, fast buildup, low mites, putting on a lot of honey.  When I was doing splits this spring I made sure get some daughters from this queen, Queen Guinevere.  This is the same hive that was looking a little odd in April, and I'm pretty sure that they just swarmed without my knowing it because they haven't had any issues since, but because of the timing of that swarm, I didn't get to split them until May. 

The split showed brood from a new queen after a couple weeks, but I think the queen must have come back from her mating flight injured or something because there was very little brood, the bees had more queen cells drawn out, and I didn't see a queen.  I left them to raise another queen and checked on them yesterday to see if they had been successful.  They hadn't been as there was no brood, very few bees in the hive, and the place was overrun with beetle larvae.  It was too much of a mess to salvage for so few bees, so I shook them out and cleaned up the mess. 

I also had an older queen quit laying on me a couple weeks ago.  I was never very happy with her, so I put a frame of Guinevere's eggs in the hive so they could raise a queen from her instead.  I was planning on just removing all queen cells that were on any other frames but that one, but I had the timing off and when I went in to do QC reduction there was a already a hatched queen cell on Guin's frame and on a frame from the old queen, which means I have no idea if the virgin queen in there is a daughter of Guinevere's or not.  (That thread of yes2matt's that was about QC timing was helpful in me realizing that they must have used older larvae and thrown of my days as a result, so lesson learned there.)

This leaves me in an odd pickle.  I really want to make sure I have some daughters of this queen going forward, and I'm nervous about going into winter with just Guinevere, since if something happens to her I'll lose out on her genes.  It's already July though, and I'm not sure it's a good idea to split her hive this late.  What do you guys think?  Is it safer to split, or not to split? 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Acebird

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2021, 02:56:55 pm »
You don't need to split to get a queen.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2021, 06:47:54 pm »
Don?t split.  Build or buy some 2 frame nuc boxes. Either learn to graft larvae from Guine or put one frame from Guine into each of them along with 1 frame of foundation.  Boost the nuc populations by tearing down any other mediocre hives.   
The hive with the unknown queen.  Move her into a 5 frame nuc with 3 frames of bees. Leave her to mate etc and assess her in 2 weeks.  Use the rest of the hive resources for the 2F mating nucs and whatever is left you go put into Guine hive as replacements for what you skimmed from her and to keep her chugging along with minimal impact.

The take away is:  never split your best performers.  Only graft or skim from them.  The hives to goto to get resources and tear down are the ones you are not impressed by.  Maintain and promote good performers.  Cull out and tear down (decimate) only the mediocre or poor.

Hope that helps.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2021, 08:30:17 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2021, 09:02:55 pm »
Don?t split.  Build or buy some 2 frame nuc boxes. Either learn to graft larvae from Guine or put one frame from Guine into each of them along with 1 frame of foundation.  Boost the nuc populations by tearing down any other mediocre hives.   
The hive with the unknown queen.  Move her into a 5 frame nuc with 3 frames of bees. Leave her to mate etc and assess her in 2 weeks.  Use the rest of the hive resources for the 2F mating nucs and whatever is left you go put into Guine hive as replacements for what you skimmed from her and to keep her chugging along with minimal impact.

The take away is:  never split your best performers.  Only graft or skim from them.  The hives to goto to get resources and tear down are the ones you are not impressed by.  Maintain and promote good performers.  Cull out and tear down (decimate) only the mediocre or poor.

Hope that helps.
Thanks for answering, HP.  So, I don't have any nucs, and I don't really have any way to get any on short notice.  Honestly, I can't seem to justify the price of nucs for my small operation, especially with the prices of wood right now.  I've been looking into divider boards instead, so if I could make myself some of those, I could take one of my 8-frame mediums, and make 2 4-frame medium nucs from one box, for a fraction of the cost of a whole nuc.  With that setup I could make 2 half-box sized colonies to raise some queens.  Then I could either use those queens to replace any that I'm not thrilled with before winter, or I could overwinter them on top of Mama Guin's hive with a Snelgrove board or something like that.  (I actually had a Snelgrove board on order about a month ago, but there was a mixup and I never got it.)  Do you think that would work? 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Bill Murray

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2021, 09:36:14 pm »
get some jester nuc boxes I think 7.00 a piece I have had some in use ten years. they are cheap, light and will last you.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2021, 09:38:41 pm »
get some jester nuc boxes I think 7.00 a piece I have had some in use ten years. they are cheap, light and will last you.
I looked these up and they are $14 a piece now.  For that price I can almost buy a full-sized box. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Bill Murray

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2021, 09:50:34 pm »
I might have a deal for you on the jester nuc boxes Im not far from mims, and already have something in the works. PM me.

Offline cao

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2021, 11:43:45 pm »
If you want to make queen cells, take a frame of eggs and put it above the honey.  The bees will build queen cells since that brood is far enough from the queen for the bees to think they are queenless.  Once the cells are capped You can put them in a nuc or whatever box combination you have with a couple frames of bees from another hive.  That will take very little resources from your good hive.  Just don't let the queen cells hatch in you original hive or you may loose you good queen.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2021, 01:28:23 am »
Quote
So, I don't have any nucs, and I don't really have any way to get any on short notice.  Honestly, I can't seem to justify the price of nucs for my small operation, especially with the prices of wood right now.  I've been looking into divider boards instead, so if I could make myself some of those, I could take one of my 8-frame mediums, and make 2 4-frame medium nucs from one box, for a fraction of the cost of a whole nuc.  With that setup I could make 2 half-box sized colonies to raise some queens.  Then I could either use those queens to replace any that I'm not thrilled with before winter, or I could overwinter them on top of Mama Guin's hive with a Snelgrove board or something like that.  (I actually had a Snelgrove board on order about a month ago, but there was a mixup and I never got it.)  Do you think that would work?

Member, I actually made a couple 2 frame mating nucs from a single 5 frame nuc by crafting a dividing board when I first started.  I was not able to fit a 3 frame and 2 frame in a 5 frame box. I could only get two, 2 frames set up when using a 5 frame box. I do not know if you will be capable of splitting your 8 frame into two 4 framers. Perhaps a three frame on one side and a four on the other. But that shouldn't be a hindrance for what you are doing.
Or you could simply use a follow board, increasing the size of frame capacity when needed by sliding the follow board wider, allowing more frames as needed.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2021, 05:04:10 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2021, 06:06:56 am »
Ben
You can make nucs out of pallet wood. Coat of paint and you have 10 years. Buy paint at garage sales, very cheap, color not relevent for a nuc.
They normally don't spend much of the year in damp weather and will last.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2021, 08:08:03 am »
Very resourceful Oldbeavo. Their is a fellow in Florida that was making 5 frame Nucs from scrap 2X material. He explained there was a PVC fence company in his area which was shipped fencing material in 2X containers. He was allowed to retrieve the stuff there. He called them his Beefy Bee Hives. Steve at (Steve?s Outdoor World), his YouTube channel.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2021, 08:34:55 pm »
My sister made a divider board for me out of duct tape-covered heavy duty Styrofoam.  She found the idea online.  It's a little bit narrower than a frame, so I'll have to manually space the frames, but I do that in 7-frame supers sometimes, so it shouldn't be a problem.  She also made me an entrance reducer that leaves an opening on either side. And yes, I always use pink duct tape for beekeeping.  :cheesy:  I "skimmed" from Guinevere today and gave each nuc area a frame with eggs/young larvae, a frame with capped brood, and a frame with stores, and the 4-frame side got an extra frame of stores that is partially drawn.  Thanks for all the help everyone, and I'll keep you updated on how it goes. 


   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline cao

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2021, 11:42:01 pm »
Looks good.  I do have one question.  Do you have separate inner covers for each side?  If not it will be hard to inspect one side without bees from the other spilling over.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2021, 12:15:51 am »
Looks good.  I do have one question.  Do you have separate inner covers for each side?  If not it will be hard to inspect one side without bees from the other spilling over.
I don't, I was just going to try and fudge it with the one big cover.  If I'm having too much trouble I could probably (have my sister) make two separate inner covers for the setup. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2021, 02:03:54 am »
A simple suggestion, use a heavy fabric as and inner cover.  A canvas / duck cloth.  Tack pin or stable the mid part full length along the top of the pink divider board. 
To check/inspect one side just take the lid off then peel and fold back the fabric for only the side you want to get into.  The other side stays covered and undisturbed. The fold joint is the pinning along the divider board. It works well, easy to make and install, and cheap. 
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline cao

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2021, 11:04:30 am »
TheHoneyPump beat me to it.  I was going to suggest the same thing.  With the cloth laid down, you can put a standard inner cover on top when you close them up.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2021, 11:18:50 am »
A simple suggestion, use a heavy fabric as and inner cover.  A canvas / duck cloth.  Tack pin or stable the mid part full length along the top of the pink divider board. 
To check/inspect one side just take the lid off then peel and fold back the fabric for only the side you want to get into.  The other side stays covered and undisturbed. The fold joint is the pinning along the divider board. It works well, easy to make and install, and cheap. 
TheHoneyPump beat me to it.  I was going to suggest the same thing.  With the cloth laid down, you can put a standard inner cover on top when you close them up.
That's a great idea!  I'll definitely do that, thanks. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2021, 11:24:50 am »
Cloth should work fine. I used a piece cut from a thick plastic dog food sack when I built the ones mentioned in reply 8. I used a rigid middle divider that was tight fit on both sides and bottom air stapled in place with 18 gage brad nails, and flush with the top so when the lid was in place there was zero chance of bees scurrying from one side to the other. The plastic liner worked well. Stapled down the top with t 40 staples on the rigid divider. No glue in the divider in case I wanted to again use the box as a 5 frame Nuc. Which I later did.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2021, 12:02:07 pm »
Cloth should work fine. I used a piece cut from a thick plastic dog food sack when I built the ones mentioned in reply 8. I used a rigid middle divider that was tight fit on both sides and bottom air stapled in place with 18 gage brad nails, and flush with the top so when the lid was in place there was zero chance of bees scurrying from one side to the other. The plastic liner worked well. Stapled down the top with t 40 staples on the rigid divider. No glue in the divider in case I wanted to again use the box as a 5 frame Nuc. Which I later did.
I could try using a piece of a feed sack too, I guess.  I'll have to see what we have lying around.  My concern with that would be a lack of ventilation in my humid climate.  I use screened inner covers for top ventilation in all my hives, so I might prefer to find a fabric that can breath a little more. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: To Split or Not to Split? Don't Want to Lose Good Genetics.
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2021, 12:47:21 pm »
Cloth should work fine. I used a piece cut from a thick plastic dog food sack when I built the ones mentioned in reply 8. I used a rigid middle divider that was tight fit on both sides and bottom air stapled in place with 18 gage brad nails, and flush with the top so when the lid was in place there was zero chance of bees scurrying from one side to the other. The plastic liner worked well. Stapled down the top with t 40 staples on the rigid divider. No glue in the divider in case I wanted to again use the box as a 5 frame Nuc. Which I later did.
I could try using a piece of a feed sack too, I guess.  I'll have to see what we have lying around.  My concern with that would be a lack of ventilation in my humid climate.  I use screened inner covers for top ventilation in all my hives, so I might prefer to find a fabric that can breath a little more.

I understand your concern, I live close to the hot humid Mississippi River Delta. I did not have problems with humidity, but I would not want to steer you in a way that you have concerns. (I have had problems with heat in regular hives with foundationless as described in another topic) Slightly wedging the tops cured that.
You probably have already considered this but I will say it just incase, if you use a breathable cloth, use one that bees feet will not be trapped, you do not want a giant SHB/bee trap on top.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

 

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