Author Topic: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive (Read 5149 times)

saltybluegrass · « **on:** April 12, 2019, 12:00:52 pm »

Can I add a cutout at a neighbors property to the hive I have trying to make queen cells? It?s low in population and activity .
What?s the sequence?
I?m going to cut out comb, rubber band to frames and leave the nuc box for 3-7 days -
Then what?
(This May lead to M. Bush?s thread on many answers )

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #1 on:** April 12, 2019, 12:45:42 pm »

First question is why is the hive low on population? Address that first.
Is it loaded with mites? Is there a brood disease? Is the queen failing?
Once you know what the cause of the problem is, then yes boosting from another hive works great. But if there is an underlying problem that you do not know or address, then the boost bees and brood are doomed to the same fate.

Getting queens cells is easy. Stick open brood and eggs into a box full of bees with no queen. Wait 10 days. Go get the cells.

van from Arkansas · « **Reply #2 on:** April 12, 2019, 05:04:58 pm »

HP, yes, glad you corrected, I was a little confused there until you adjusted.

Question: I have seen hives, not many, that will not create queen cells after repeated presentation of frames with eggs, 24 hr larva, and also seen hives with a failing queen that make no attempt to supersede? I don?t know why or what I am doing wrong??? I realize bees don?t always follow the book, but ask for your, beeks, input?

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #3 on:** April 12, 2019, 06:03:25 pm »

Per Pooh Bear: you never can tell with bees

Cases where they will not draw cells may be such things as: - the bees are too old and not capable of quality RJ, need young nurse bees for to draw cells well. - some old bees may be already turning laying worker, they think they are queenrite. - larvae in comb given are too old. - overpowering queen/brood pheromone coming from somewhere.

Other ideas?

van from Arkansas · « **Reply #4 on:** April 12, 2019, 08:50:30 pm »

That is a good reply HP. Thanks for your time.

What does Per Pooh Bear mean and who is it directed to?

Beeboy01 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 12, 2019, 09:48:31 pm »

Christopher Robin, Pooh Bear and honey maybe ?

saltybluegrass · « **Reply #6 on:** April 12, 2019, 10:36:27 pm »

I just worry that slow hive from a cutout may have lost a q. Then 2 weeks ago I saw Qcells and this Sunday there was still a capped Q cell- there?s plenty of work/ nectar / pollen - I didn?t see eggs since I dropped some comb and panicked to not keep disrupting the hive, I closed it up.
Was just wondering when I go cutout this hive tomorrow if I can add it to her?

ed/La. · « **Reply #7 on:** April 12, 2019, 11:37:27 pm »

If you combine I would put a screened bottom board between them with its own entrance. Inspect in a week to see if there is a queen in both boxes. If not remove screen bottom board separating them.

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #8 on:** April 13, 2019, 12:55:01 pm »

Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 12, 2019, 08:50:30 pm

That is a good reply HP. Thanks for your time.

What does Per Pooh Bear mean and who is it directed to?

van from Arkansas · « **Reply #9 on:** April 13, 2019, 03:50:13 pm »

HP QUOTE: the bees are too old and not capable of quality RJ, need young nurse bees for to draw cells well. -

Yes, HP, of course, I believe you hit the nail on the head. I am dealing now with an overwintered hive that was queenless. I did provide 2 frames of capped brood, one frame of eggs and larva, 8 days ago. I was expecting a queen cell to be made, but nothing. I now understand why!! Ok, after this cold front moves out and warmer weather appears I will add another frame of eggs, larva.

Do you expand wax cells, open wider the top of the cell, with say 24 hr larva to entice a queen cell to be made from??

ed/La. · « **Reply #10 on:** April 14, 2019, 11:51:15 pm »

I give a queen less hive 2 tries at making a queen or accepting a donor queen cell. Then I give up and do a combine. To much work for the reward. Takes long enough for hive to make a laying queen. Season is to short to add 20 extra days to the process.

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #11 on:** April 15, 2019, 01:34:23 am »

Quote from: ed/La. on April 14, 2019, 11:51:15 pm

I give a queen less hive 2 tries at making a queen or accepting a donor queen cell. Then I give up and do a combine. To much work for the reward. Takes long enough for hive to make a laying queen. Season is to short to add 20 extra days to the process.

Agreed.

Further to this, should there be any interest in my methods upon encountering a queenless hive. Unless I have a mated queens ready in my breast pocket, or backup nucleus colonies humming along, or an option to buy and have another queen in hand within 2 days ... Then any hive found queenless immediately has its resources redistributed and the bees combined with another hive in the bee yard. By necessity, there is no time nor patience for a hive to raise a queen. Without a queen, a hive is nothing more than an expensive/valuable box of bees and frames that has a perishable period of 2 weeks. Use it promptly or lose it and have nothing.

- Backup queens have to be at the ready or the queenless hive is dismantled.
- Combine resources and bees, let them work together to fortify a queenrite hive.
- Raise queens in small nucleus colonies or buy them.
- When there is a queen in hand and ready, do a hive split.

imho, for consideration, hope that helps, in some way.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 15, 2019, 07:02:00 am »

I inspected the cutout that I put in a hive 48 hours prior and found 2 New emergency queen cells being started. I want their genetics so I added a super and a double screen on top of another queen right hive that is next to it and put this hive on top. The reason I added a super is we have a light flow on now and will soon be in a very strong flow. I do not want to disturb the top hive fo 30 days. So the deep super should help.
The queen less hive seems to be working hard with no robbing. We will see what happens.
If this hive were out in a location completely by itself, this would not bee necessary. With over 30 hives all around it, and a possible week or 2 of dearth before the main flow, they would not have a chance.
Jim Altmiller

Michael Bush · « **Reply #13 on:** April 15, 2019, 08:10:47 am »

>the bees are too old and not capable of quality RJ

I don't believe this is true. Any bee can do any job. It may take more older bees to make the same amount of RJ but the quality of it is the same.

I'm not the only one.

http://bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Old%20Bees%20Good%20Nurses

"Again some have told me that old bees cannot nurse as their milk glands dry up. I maintain such a statement erroneous....

"Probably in a normal colony the bees do the work best fitted to their age but, as stated, they can do any work required after they are ten days old."--Jay Smith, Better Queens

"...Robinson, Page, Strambi and Strambi (1989) in which they created small colonies consisting of workers all of the same age, and found that regardless of the workers' age, there were always some with low hormone levels (the nurses) and always some with high hormone levels(the foragers). This it is clear that under certain experimental conditions the division of labor within honey bee colonies can be completely unrelated to age." --Tom Seeley, Wisdom of the Hive

"Indeed, it is probably possible for bees of almost any age to perform a particular task if the occasion demands it, as has been recently discussed in detail by Robinson (1992)."--Wisdom of the hive, Tom Seeley (page 31)

saltybluegrass · « **Reply #14 on:** April 17, 2019, 11:22:26 pm »

The cutout was a failure so I am stuck with this queer hive and nothing to add.
As a newbie, I can?t locate a queen especially with comb falling off frames and I don?t want to over-handle.
I am inspecting this weekend.
I see good activity this week with pollen going in - no dead?s out front and a lot of traffic.
What should this inspection be about? What should I look for and steps to either close this hive or buy a Q-Etc...?
I have 2 other hives - 1 is brood box only. The 5 frame nuc I received last month and is ready for a super.
The other was a healthy cutout placed in 10-frame brood box last month. It now has a super with bees partially working the top box from inspection 10 days ago and they are still drinking syrup from top feeder.
I really need work on my Q locating skills. It would help if I had something to color her but I?m not sure I?ll ever find one so I?m not even ready to paint!!

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #15 on:** April 18, 2019, 02:19:20 am »

The way to spot the queen is do not look for the queen. Look at a mass of bees on the frame and allow your eye to be drawn to the one that is different from the rest. Pull up a frame and scan the wriggling mass of bees. Look at the frame and sing the song:

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song

?

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 18, 2019, 05:49:08 am »

jimineycricket · « **Reply #17 on:** April 18, 2019, 11:15:50 am »

How reliable is it to say that if there is a lot o pollen going in, they have a queen, and are making brood? No pollen no brood no queen? Maybe not in a dearth?

Michael Bush · « **Reply #18 on:** April 18, 2019, 01:31:08 pm »

>How reliable is it to say that if there is a lot o pollen going in, they have a queen, and are making brood?

It is not reliable. I've seen queenless hives stock away frame after frame of pollen.

saltybluegrass · « **Reply #19 on:** April 19, 2019, 10:47:26 am »

So funey honey pump!!
I do take a macro view like you advise btw.
Explain your distribution pattern when combining queenless frames to other hives - positions 1-10. What goes where and why?
Also if you were to have a frame of eggs or capped brood from queenless hive , what position in the new hive do they take ?
By the way I had a dream last night that I was sent back to 9th grade - it seems dropping out as a high school junior , now at 57 , even my dreams are mean to me!!