Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: Lesgold on December 16, 2023, 03:09:57 pm
-
Hi Folks,
I know very little about laser engravers and was wondering if any of you have any knowledge or experience in their use. They are now very affordable and would have many uses for a beekeeper. Could you imagine making your own engraved signs for market stalls, producing fancy wooden honey labels, etching your hive brand into frame top bars, etc, etc, etc. The uses for this piece of equipment would be endless and only bounded by your imagination. Some of the better quality lasers will cut pine up to 20mm thick in one pass. The cutting of box joints on the ends of boxes would also be possible with such a machine. Holes for screws or nails could be accurately made and complex shapes could also be produced. Do any of you use them? I?m after any advice that you could provide such as brand selection, laser type, software etc. Thanks in advance.
Cheers
Les
-
Les,
I have been looking at laser engravers for a while. I have also looked at adding a laser engraver to my 3D printer. Decided it would be too much work switching it back and forth.
I don?t know how much you want to spend but this one below is a nice one from Creality. It is a 4 laser, 22 watt unit. This enables you to control how much power you use for a given job.
Creality Laser Engraver 22W Output, 120W High Power Falcon2 Laser Engraving Machine CNC, DIY Laser Cutter and Engraver Machine for Metal and Wood, Paper, Acrylic, Glass, Leather etc, 17" x 16" https://a.co/d/fi8aTkr
Jim Altmiller
-
I know barley anything about them, but I am interested in this conversation..
Phillip
-
Hi Jim,
That was one that I was looking at also. It has some pretty good qualities when I looked at youtube videos. A woodworker who sells toys, cutting boards etc at the markets, engraves a lot of his work. He bought a cheap one off eBay for about $350 Au. and it appeared to do a good job on engraving. Unfortunately it only cuts to about 3mm. That would be fine for thin plywood but would not cut the thicker timber that beekeepers use. Phillip, I?m in a similar position to you. I?ve only been researching for a couple of days. About 10 years ago I bought a CNC router for the school so that kids could do some decorative work on their woodwork projects. Much of the hardware and software seems fairly similar so it wouldn?t be totally foreign to me. At this stage I?m not sure if I should bite the bullet and buy a good one or get a cheap EBay engraver to find out if it has potential.
-
Les how much would you expect to pay for a good one?
Phillip
-
Hi Phillip,
You can get a reasonable laser engraver for around $450 Au. I ordered one two days ago and paid a bit over $1000. Got a couple of extras as well. It was actually the one that Jim mentioned. I had been looking at it and a few other alternatives for a week or so. Hopefully it will arrive before the new year.
-
Les,
I mentioned to my son that I was interested in getting a laser engraver so I might be getting one for Christmas 🤞. I was looking at that unit on Amazon so hopefully Judy saw that and gets the same one. If so we can share what we learn.
The vice president of our bee club has a nice one but I have never had the chance to talk to him about it.
-
That would be great Jim. I have watched a few reviews and clips on the unit and there is just too much information for the old brain to absorb. There will be a huge learning curve as the software is quite powerful and has many features that will take time to find and take advantage of. I bought the basic unit with a honeycomb bench. I think that I will make a box and extraction unit for the engraver rather than purchasing one. I will use the unit for a while before a decision is made in relation to this. There will be plenty of beekeeping related uses for this engraver and I?m looking forward to exploring some of them.
-
The laser cutter arrived a couple of days ago and I finally found a few minutes to unpack it. The unit was basically assembled and only took a few minutes to plug in cables, air hoses etc. The biggest problem is that there won?t be an opportunity to play with it for a couple of weeks due to Xmas. Something to look forward to (I hope). Jim, hopefully you will be up and racing soon and will be able to mentor me. I was hoping to be able to use it before New Year?s Day to make some small signs for the market stall but this task may have to wait.
-
Les,
I don?t know if I will be getting one but is I do , having made hundreds of 3d designs for my 3d printer will give me a good head start.
What program do you have to make the designs?
Jim Altmiller
-
Hi Jim,
I have downloaded Lightburn on my wife?s laptop. It seems to be the standard for laser engraving. I have it on 30 day trial at the moment. I won?t be able to use it until I connect it to the engraver but from a few clips that I?ve watched, its potential is amazing. It appears to be quite straightforward for simple tasks but as with all software of this type, there are stacks of icons with drop down menus which will take a long time to unpack. I tend to only learn what is needed for the task at hand which will mean that I won?t be using it to its potential for quite a while. There are plenty of tutorials online which will be helpful.
-
I grabbed my 11 year old grandson to have a play with the engraver. He designed a simple name tag and after a couple of minutes of play time, we cut it out of 2mm plywood. The result was quite reasonable for our first effort. There was a bit of smoke generated so a cabinet with an extraction fan will be needed. I could make one using a computer fan and some plywood or just buy a complete unit online. I?ll look at flexible ducting availability and other components before making a decision.
-
We then imported one of my labels as an image and then put a square around it. I was interested to see what the quality of the burn would be like without any modification or editing. It was a little smudged but wasn?t too bad considering our total lack of experience in this area. My grandson has now taken over the use of the laptop to do some design work so my learning will come to a stop for a while.
-
Looks good Les.
I did not get a laser printer for Christmas.
I did get a night scope, a case full of router bits and a new Apple Watch.
I want to do some night time rat hunting as soon as I get it mounted on my pellet rifle.
On the first laser cut, I wonder if a little sanding would make the lines look better.
Jim Altmiller
-
Hi Jim,
Sounds like you ended up with some nice goodies for Xmas. I think you are right about the sanding. Most clips I watch suggest a bit of light sanding afterwards. The honeycomb board that I purchased with the unit hasn?t been sent yet and this means that the smoke, debris, burnt resin etc has nowhere to escape. I?m currently sitting the plywood on some sheet aluminium which results in some staining on the bottom surface as well. I?m hoping these blemishes will reduce when the honeycomb board arrives. I will purchase some 16mm MDF to make a baseboard in the next couple of days. A grid will be burnt onto it. That will help to align material for engraving. I managed to do some testing yesterday afternoon. A small pricing sign for the markets was quickly designed with finger joints attached to the base. The kerf of the laser was going to make loose joint work but it was important to establish the size of the kerf so that adjustments could be made. After a few tests, the final slot offsets were established and some close fitting joint work resulted. You will notice the bad staining on the underside of the sign. The aluminium baseplate sheet is now stained and a bit sticky. It should have been cleaned prior to this burn but the impatience of using a new toy pushed logic and common sense to one side.
-
I wanted to try importing a copyright image of a bee into the engraver to use but it was going to be too much of a hassle to sign up to free trials etc. My eldest daughter is a wizard on Photoshop so she decided to get in and design one herself. She has spent a couple of hours looking at designs and getting proportions right before sending me something that I could print off. Made a guess at cut settings and as you can see the first image was running too hot for the ply and burnt through. Through a few tests, the settings were adjusted until the engraving looked OK through my untalented eyes. Tried a burn on MDF which worked quite well and then I put a blank that would be used for a wooden lid under the machine. This also came out quite well. A lid may have to be turned and then engraved to see what happens. My daughter continues to manipulate the bee as she feels it has masculine legs. She really is a perfectionist.
-
Thanks Les.. Good stuff, with your daughters help as a bonus!
Phillip
-
They look great. I like that you are able to cut matching sign and base. Nice bee.
After couldn?t find a pellet gun mount to Picatinny mount, I spent a part of today designing on to 3D print. I finished it and finished printing it. Everything printed as designed but the sharp edges that hold it to the top of the pellet gun failed. They break off. I plan on making thin steel plates with those sharp edges on my lathe/mill.
Here are some pictures:
-
It?s amazing what a 3D printer can make for you. If you can draw it, the printer can print it. What a great way to experiment or to solve that impossible construction problem. Those mounts look great Jim.
-
Thanks, I really enjoy designing things and seeing them printed.
Jim Altmiller
-
My daughter ended up playing with the design all day. She would look at pictures of bees, make a few changes and then ask for comments from another daughter via text on the phone. Eventually, the final image was created and all parties were happy. It was then sent to me so that I could do my bit with the software. I wanted to try a design on a turned wooden lid just to see how it would print on a surface that wasn?t completely flat. The lid was turned and a method created to ensure the engraved image would be centred. The burn turned out quite well but it was decided that settings for some of the bee parts needed to be darker. There was also an error in the image that needed correction. With the changes made, a final test burn was performed on some MDF and the image was saved. I would tend to burn the image on lighter coloured lids that lacked character.
-
That is so beautiful! I can't believe how accurate they got the wing venation!
-
It was really good watching the process that my daughter used for the design. Everything was drawn in layers in Photoshop and I was given quite a few bee designs. I just noticed that the pic that was posted wasn?t the final drawing but it was close. The image will now come in handy for lots of areas related to what I do. Honey labels, lids, signs for markets, engravings on comb honey frames etc.
-
Les,
I just finished the adapter for my new scope. I ended up making the thin plate out of a chunk of brass that a neighbor gave me.
Here are 2 pictures of it installed:
-
It must be satisfying when it all comes together. Well done Jim. It just looks like a store bought addition to the scope. This type of stuff can be time consuming and very addictive.
-
My daughter ended up playing with the design all day. She would look at pictures of bees, make a few changes and then ask for comments from another daughter via text on the phone. Eventually, the final image was created and all parties were happy. It was then sent to me so that I could do my bit with the software. I wanted to try a design on a turned wooden lid just to see how it would print on a surface that wasn?t completely flat. The lid was turned and a method created to ensure the engraved image would be centred. The burn turned out quite well but it was decided that settings for some of the bee parts needed to be darker. There was also an error in the image that needed correction. With the changes made, a final test burn was performed on some MDF and the image was saved. I would tend to burn the image on lighter coloured lids that lacked character.
Tried AI to generate pictures? These only took minutes and your welcome to any. Ignoring instructions for no background for some reason...
-
Les,
I took the gun out to the shop to sight it in. The very first shot, the scope came flying off. The v on the plastic side came off. I modified the design to put brass plates on both sides. It is printing right now.
Jim Altmiller
-
They look great William. Thanks for that. I might keep a screen shot or two for reference. They are very similar (but more detailed) to what my daughter designed. It would be interesting to import one of the images into Lightburn and see what could be produced. Testing a new design always shows where a product works well or needs improvement. I?m sure that you will nail it now that you have identified the areas where extra strength is required. Would love to see the printed article. Please show us all.
-
The only problem is the AI cannot seem to decide the correct number and position of bee legs! :cheesy: The human design still wins in my book.
-
I did notice that but wasn?t going to say too much. You guys on the other side of the world drive on the wrong side of the road and I therefore assumed that your bees had eight legs as well. I?m sure there is some twisted logic in there somewhere🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪
-
I?m sure that you will nail it now that you have identified the areas where extra strength is required. Would love to see the printed article. Please show us all.
? Have no engraver. Various other things I could try, your design as a control image at various strengths. Remove background after the fact...
-
The only problem is the AI cannot seem to decide the correct number and position of bee legs! :cheesy: The human design still wins in my book.
Only slightly better at human fingers :shocked:
-
Thought I?d have a go at making a box using finger joints. There are a number of websites that allow you to do this and then import the resulting plans into Lightburn. The program that I used also allowed you to compensate for the kerf of the laser cut which was a bonus. I decided to try the software and see what would happen. The box took about 30 seconds to design and about the same to import. The results were very impressive. I started to do this from scratch yesterday but realised that it would take a bit of thinking and planning to get it right. This method was a time saver. I will draw one up in Lightburn purely for the experience and also to learn a few more of the tools needed for the job.
-
Of Williams AI choices I like the following one best. Maybe the main wings could have been set back just a little more? Or maybe been a little shorter Or more rounded? Close though? The dot on the back looks good too!
-
Les the bee on the Jar lid looks superb with the wood grain!
-
I agree Phillip. I had a look at it yesterday and thought it would be a very good starting point for an image. I did import it into Lightburn to see how it would look but the hair on the body and the shadows played tricks with the software. It would be an excellent image to manipulate in an editing software app to sharpen up outlines.
-
Finally got rid of the flowers...
-
Saw a bee puzzle file online so I decided to purchase and download it. Cost about $4 for the file. It took 15 minutes to cut from 3mm plywood but the joints were too open for my liking. Glued the project together with superglue and it does look neat. I may look at modifying the design to see if I can get closer fitting joint work and perhaps strengthening the legs which are very thin in places.
-
I?ve had an idea that I may be able to cut joint work for nuc boxes using the laser so I did a bit of a mock up to see how it would work. Decided to try 9mm ply as a starting point. A simple box could be constructed utilising the 9mm dimension as it would match up nicely to the rebate required for frame rests. Finger joints on the sample were 20 and 25mm respectively. There was no reason for the size, I was just playing with the material. An allowance was made for the kerf and the joints were cut. I was actually surprised at how well they fitted together. If anything, they were a fraction too tight. This would be a simple fix in the future. Thicker ply or a combination of ply thicknesses could be used if extra hive insulation was required. The design for the nuc would only take about 30 minutes to organise and a jig would be required to position timber in the correct location.
-
The idea of cutting nuc boxes was put on hold for a while as I had another idea creep into my pea sized brain as I was bottling up some honey for the up coming markets. I was in a bit of a daze just standing there filling one jar after another and then it just hit me. Could I use this engraver to cut material for my comb honey frames? I couldn?t get away from the bottling job quickly enough to get into the software and start on an idea. When I make up my mini frames for comb honey, the biggest consumer of my time is the materials prep. If I could get the laser to cut out the timber, I would have a bit of a win/ win situation. First of all the precision would be exact and then there is the time saver due to the machine doing its thing while I am attending to other jobs within the workshop area. My current comb honey frames are stapled together and do the job nicely but if I had the machine working for me, I could produce things slightly differently. I spent about 20 minutes coming up with a basic frame to see what would work. I used an off-cut of 3mm ply for the test and put the cutter to work. Finger joints held together well and the whole idea got me inspired to develop the idea further. I think that I will work on a few refinements over the coming months to improve the style and shape to make the system a bit better to work with. From now on, any playtime in this area will be put into the comb honey thread that I started many moons ago.
-
Yes an excellent idea. Les sharing your good ideas are so appreicated! And I remember your good comb honey posting series. How much time in total do you think this may save percentage wise?
Phillip
-
Not sure yet Phillip. I think they will be more expensive to make materials wise if I use plywood but they should be cheaper to make if my time is considered. I will play with an idea tomorrow and post it. The other advantage would be the equipment and experience required to construct this type of project. A cheap laser cutter and a laptop should be able to produce better results than the table saw, drop saw, compressed and staple gun. This would be an ideal investment for someone with limited construction skills who has an interest in design and computing.
-
Les,
Looks great. Since you are using the laser cutter, why not engrave your logo on the top board.
Do you have a planer? If so, you could plane down the pallet boards to whatever thickness you need and use them instead of buying plywood. Just make sure there are no nails in the boards.
Jim Altmiller
-
Thanks Jim,
The engraver will do that quite easily as well. At the moment, I burn a logo into the frames but this also takes time. I?ve been thinking about all sorts of ways of producing them and using my time efficiently. I haven?t made any comb honey this season as we haven?t had a honey flow and the bees are doing it tough. Next season should be much better and I will making some for the markets. I currently use what is called a merch grade of pine to construct the frames. It is a cheap, seasoned and untreated pine board that is non structural due to knots and imperfections. I can cut around those areas and produce frames for about 15 cents each. If I use plywood, the material cost will be somewhere between 20 and 50 cents per unit depending on the size and quality of the ply used. I have used pallet material for normal frames in the past but it is very unstable in the hive and some of them twist and move in all sorts of directions.
-
Today will be spent bottling honey and this stoped me from playing in the workshop. (Well for some of the time anyway.) I wanted to replenish my stock of fancy jars with turned wooden lids and wondered if I could incorporate the laser into part of this process by adding another feature to that particular product. I had been reading up on engraving glass and it appears that there are a number of ways of approaching it. As glass is clear, a laser beam passes through it without burning anything due to its transparency. The way to engrave the outer skin is to put a solid coating over the surface and then engrave into that covering. Some of the glass will be impacted during this process and an etched look will result. At the moment I can only engrave flat surfaces so I thought I?d have a go on a couple of square jars. The surface to be engraved has to be perfectly clean to ensure a good result. The side to be engraved was washed with soap followed by a clean with methylated spirits. Lids were placed on the jars to keep them clean on the inside and a small mark was placed next to the side that had been cleaned. Even finger prints could upset the quality of the engraving so care had to be taken in the handling of the jars. I decided that the best method for me was to use a water based, flat black kids paint. An even coating could be applied with an air brush to the area to be etched. A number of very thin coats were applied with the hot air gun being used to dry the paint layers quickly.
-
When a solid, matt black surface was achieved, the jars could then be taken to the engraver. Due to the size of the jars, the engraver had to be lifted to allow the laser head to clear the glass surface. I set the image to be engraved and then made the adjustments required to allow the machine to do its job. I may have to tweak settings and test alternatives to ensure the best results can be achieved. You can see some of the graphic appearing as the laser is running. The last photo shows the result after the engraving is completed. You can see that the laser cut through the paint and left a frosted look on the glass.
-
Being a water based paint, it washed away quickly. The outer surface was then dried and the engraving could be seen clearly. The same effect could be achieved using chemical based paints but they are expensive and solvents have to be used to remove all evidence of the paint. It appears as though quite a few people use this method as the water based paint is difficult to apply evenly when using a brush or roller. The air brush was ideal and solved the problem. Cleanup was less than a minute so it was a win/ win for the water based paint. I have also seen clips of people dipping glass into thinned paint with good results. The engraving really popped when the two jars were filled with honey. The darker background provided some contrast to allow the image to stand out. I will see what the response is when I take these two samples to the markets on Sunday.
-
I am continually impressed with the creativity and quality of your projects. Continue the good work.
-
Thanks cao. It?s always good to get into the workshop to design and make things.
-
That has got to be the most beautiful jar of honey I've ever seen! You are going to run every other honey producer out of business! :happy:
-
That has got to be the most beautiful jar of honey I've ever seen! You are going to run every other honey producer out of business! :happy:
I agree! Nice Les!
-
Thanks guys. It does look pretty cool. It will be interesting to see what the customers say at the markets on Sunday. This type of engraving may be more suited to special family gifts etc as there is extra work involved and I?m not sure that people would be prepared to pay more for an engraving unless it was personalised.
-
Had the family down for the weekend and had the chance to do a bit of design work with my grandson. He is just about to start high school so I thought it may be a good chance to plan and cut a pencil box for him to keep at home. Many years ago I used to have my younger students cut this type of project using hand tools and traditional woodworking techniques. These days things have changed and computers do much of the work for you. We sat down and spent a few hours working on a basic plan and this morning while the kids were at the beach, the project was completed. I wanted a bit of a locking mechanism for the sliding lid and this is what I came up with. It is really easy to waste time doing this sort of stuff but the results are worth it. The accuracy of this machine is outstanding.
-
That's insanely awesome! :happy:
-
I finally made the effort to cut a nuc from plywood. I wanted to use 9mm ply on the ends as this would give me the correct size for a frame rest. I decided to use the 9mm ply for all sides as the laser cutter didn?t like thicker ply for some reason. It may have been the material that was used for the cross veneers. That?s not an issue for me though as I don?t really need the insulation given from a thicker material. Most of my nucs are made in the mid spring or early summer when temperatures are pretty good overnight. I did use 12mm ply for the lid and base to give extra support. The base was recessed into the sides to help to keep the ply nice and straight. If I needed a few nucs, joint work could be cut while I?m assembling others. This should save a bit of time in the long run.
-
Les the capabilities of this machine are awesome!
-
You are right Phillip. At about $700 US, it?s going to add a lot of value to the workshop.
-
Had another bright idea for the laser while babysitting grandkids last night. I make all of my own labels and many of them are swing tags that are printed both sides and then cut out by hand with scissors. A small hole for string is then drilled in one corner using a high speed rotary engraver with a burr bit attached. It?s not a difficult task but it does take time and is not completely accurate. I decided to do the cutting out and drilling on the laser cutter to hopefully improve the quality of the label and reduce time. I spent about 20 minutes producing the design and the template required to hold the A4 sheets in place. The printed cardboard sheets are quickly dropped in place and some magnets are placed on each label to keep everything flat. Probably a bit of overkill but I thought it would be better to be conservative on the first run. 12 labels had the small holes produced and the labels accurately cut in 48 seconds. The results were outstanding. I might try cutting out about 4 sheets piggy backed to see what happens.
-
This is great man, looks like an amazing piece of kit to have in the shop. Really cool
-
One of the disadvantages of this laser is that it doesn?t have an easy way of getting material in the right position without a lot of mucking around. I saw a YouTube clip on a guy who made his own alignment laser which he added to his engraver for approximately locating his plywood before the cutting process was started. Thought this was a good idea so I decided to design and make my own similar to what he used. I purchased a cheep laser and battery pack online. All up it cost about $14. I twisted the wires together and put a battery into the holder and this is the result.
-
It was then a simple task to cut and solder the wires together and build a container to hold the battery pack and the laser. I used the engraver to make this component. Double sided tape was then used to hold the laser bracket to the laser module. The photograph shows the laser before it was focussed.
-
As this laser beam was situated about 30mm from the actual cutting beam, I needed to measure the offset in both the X andY directions and then use a feature in the software to tell the laser to move to a new spot before starting its program. After a couple of tests and minor adjustments, I was able to get the starting point to within a mm. A bit more tweaking could get things very close but this is more accurate than what I require at this stage. For really accurate jobs I would construct jigs.