Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Queen of drones  (Read 1718 times)

Offline Charlie Bezzina

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Queen of drones
« on: November 19, 2022, 02:19:04 am »
I opened my hives today and found one full of bullet shaped drone cells.

This colony has been on my radar for the last four weeks, because I could see it was in trouble. Initially I thought it was queenless because there were no eggs, then i noticed some eggs and I thought it was a laying worker because there multiple eggs in the cells. Then I found the queen and thought maybe she is just incredibly slow getting started. Now I find her laying nothing but drones.

Sadly I squashed her today, because her entire colony was doomed.

Luckily my other hive had three queen cells, two of them capped and one uncapped but with a big fat larva in it. I put those queen cells in to the now queenless hive.

I really hope I have done the right thing, and that they can sort themselves out.

Offline BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13494
  • Gender: Male
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2022, 05:52:43 am »
That should do the trick. Did you leave any queen cells in the donating hive.
That hive either swarmed, most likely or they plan on superseding the old queen.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Charlie Bezzina

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2022, 04:44:28 pm »
Hi Jim. That might be my big mistake... No I didn't leave any queen cells in the donating colony.

The donating colony is strong and they had fully drawn and 80% filled the deep super with nectar. I added an ideal with basswood sections to try and get the comb drawn down from starter strips, but I could place a second deep on there too.

Do you think I should put one frame back in, or leave them to fix my mistake? I prefer not to disturb the queeless hive for at least a week so the capped cells can open.

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2022, 04:51:34 pm »
Hi Jim. That might be my big mistake... No I didn't leave any queen cells in the donating colony.

The donating colony is strong and they had fully drawn and 80% filled the deep super with nectar. I added an ideal with basswood sections to try and get the comb drawn down from starter strips, but I could place a second deep on there too.

Do you think I should put one frame back in, or leave them to fix my mistake? I prefer not to disturb the queeless hive for at least a week so the capped cells can open.
If the donating colony is strong and has lots of open brood, then I think it should be okay to let them start over making queen cells if they want to.  Just keep an eye on them and make sure everything continues to be fine, in case that queen is failing or they are thinking about swarming.   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Oldbeavo

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1014
  • Gender: Male
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2022, 06:09:14 pm »
It pays to always find the queen in the donating hive.
If she is there and looks fine then you may consider taking a bit more brood if you think they were considering swarming.
If the queen is a bit off, not as good as you like then leaving some frames of eggs will allow he bees to continue with their supersedure.
If you don't find the queen, then leave some cells to cover the possibility that she has gone, or that you missed her.

I know HP doesn't agree with saving drone hives, but if you shake all the bees off the drone frames and smash all the drone brood, put them back with some brood and eggs, QC if you have one and leave it for time to generate a new queen, hopefully.

We are about to do the same procedure to one of our hives today.

Offline Charlie Bezzina

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2022, 07:52:49 pm »
I spent ages looking for the queen in the donating colony but I didn't find her. If it wasn't so windy today I would go back in that hive and do another search and maybe transplant one queen cell back again.

The 3 queen cells were in the middle of the frames so they might be supersedure cells?

I wish I had 3 colonies now. If I can sort this out without killing all my bees, I will try and create a nucleus and keep them too.

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2022, 08:22:46 pm »
I spent ages looking for the queen in the donating colony but I didn't find her. If it wasn't so windy today I would go back in that hive and do another search and maybe transplant one queen cell back again.

The 3 queen cells were in the middle of the frames so they might be supersedure cells?

I wish I had 3 colonies now. If I can sort this out without killing all my bees, I will try and create a nucleus and keep them too.
Don't worry, you'll have more colonies than you know what to do with before you know it!  :grin:  With only a few cells in the middle of frames, it is possible they are planning on superseding.  If you can't get back in to give them a cell or two back, then just be sure to check on them in a few days to make certain they are drawing out more queens cells, which they should do if they have plenty of eggs and/or several-day-old larvae.  When you were looking for the queen, did you see eggs?  If you did, everything should work itself out. 

Does anyone know the average day in larval development that workers elongate a queen cell?  I'm digging around in my books, but I can't seem to find the answer.  That many days from when you removed the queen cells would be a good time to go in and make sure they have made more.   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Charlie Bezzina

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2022, 08:34:30 pm »
In the fluster of finding nothing but drone caps in the first hive I opened, I have to say I wasn't really thinking when I opened the second hive. As soon as I saw the queen cells and plenty of sealed brood in it I immediately thought to transfer the queen cells and neglected to pay attention to eggs...

Hopefully I can get in there and have another look in a few days. We are having 40kmh winds today. It is really blowing hard.

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2022, 09:12:40 pm »
In the fluster of finding nothing but drone caps in the first hive I opened, I have to say I wasn't really thinking when I opened the second hive. As soon as I saw the queen cells and plenty of sealed brood in it I immediately thought to transfer the queen cells and neglected to pay attention to eggs...

Hopefully I can get in there and have another look in a few days. We are having 40kmh winds today. It is really blowing hard.
That's all right, it's easy to get flustered when a problem arises.  If the donor hive is strong, it's likely they have enough eggs and brood build another round of cells, even if they are superseding.  They've probably already gotten started selecting the new larvae.  :smile:   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Charlie Bezzina

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2022, 12:46:27 am »
I opened both hives again today, and am thinking I should probably refrain from interfering with the bees...

The donating hive had no eggs or larvae. (Is it my eyes that are no good??). The struggling hive had larvae, capped worker cells, capped drones and 2 capped queen cells 2 building queen cells (queen larva inside) and 2 opened (i.e queen came out) queen cells.

I have put the capped queen cells into the strong hive that I had originally stolen the queen cells from and I hope the bees in both hives are all good to fix things up from here.

Offline Oldbeavo

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1014
  • Gender: Male
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2022, 05:20:08 am »
Charlie
first post 19 Nov, then today 26th in OZ
If in the drone hive that received the cells, did you just transfer the cells or the whole frame?
Does this frame have the worker brood on it or does another frame have the worker brood.
Where i am going is did you transfer the queen from the donating hive? and when the queen cells hatched have they superseded her and so you now have a young queen, or are they going to later. Do you have an old queen and a young queen in the same hive.
If the receiving hive has larvae then the hatched queen cells can have mated and layed these.
No eggs in the donating hive says the queen went some where? swarmed or transfered?
Hard to work out from so far away, but worth thinking about.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12403
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2022, 10:07:03 am »
Quote
Charlie Bezzina
The donating hive had no eggs or larvae. (Is it my eyes that are no good??).

Charlie until you get use to spotting eggs, you might try a magnifying glass. Worked for me.

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2022, 01:28:39 pm »
I opened both hives again today, and am thinking I should probably refrain from interfering with the bees...

The donating hive had no eggs or larvae. (Is it my eyes that are no good??). The struggling hive had larvae, capped worker cells, capped drones and 2 capped queen cells 2 building queen cells (queen larva inside) and 2 opened (i.e queen came out) queen cells.

I have put the capped queen cells into the strong hive that I had originally stolen the queen cells from and I hope the bees in both hives are all good to fix things up from here.
I think if both hives now have some queen cells, the bees should work it out from there.  Leave both hives alone for at least 2-3 weeks to work out potentially growing and mating a new queen and getting her laying.  Let us know how things look when you open them up next.     
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Charlie Bezzina

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2022, 08:25:47 pm »
I have been swapping the frames, not cutting out the cells.  So when I swap frames a whole bunch of eggs larvae and capped brood are swapped with it.

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2022, 08:35:58 pm »
I have been swapping the frames, not cutting out the cells.  So when I swap frames a whole bunch of eggs larvae and capped brood are swapped with it.
I do that too, and it's not inherently a problem, but, like OldBeavo mentioned, you do need to make sure the queen isn't on the frame.  I usually just brush all the bees off a frame I'm transferring, just to be safe, especially if I haven't seen the queen in the hive. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Charlie Bezzina

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2022, 08:53:43 pm »
 I definitely remove all the bees before exchanging frames. I was under the impression the bees can tell if there are foreign bees in the hive and that would result in fighting and dead bees.

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2022, 10:13:07 pm »
I definitely remove all the bees before exchanging frames. I was under the impression the bees can tell if there are foreign bees in the hive and that would result in fighting and dead bees.
It depends on the bees, the time of year, and if a flow is on.  When there is a strong flow on, the bees are less picky about who gets in and who gets out.  The guard bees will often let bees from other hives who are carrying honey and pollen into the hive if they ask.  During these conditions adding some foreign bees into a hive probably wouldn't cause much fighting, although foragers that you added would still be oriented to their original hive, so when they left the new hive to forage, they'd just return home.  Nurse bees, who are caring for the brood, haven't oriented yet and aren't really loyal to the queen at their age, they are just loyal to the brood, so they can usually be moved from hive to hive without too much fuss, especially if there is a flow on.  During a dearth though, you wouldn't want to just move bees between hives, because that could easily cause fighting and robbing.   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Oldbeavo

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1014
  • Gender: Male
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2022, 04:32:40 am »
We usually locate the queen then swap brood and bees on the frame to the receiving hive, a dusting of icing sugar creates enough confusion that the is no fighting.
We may give the receiving hive a shake of bees from an open brood frame just to give them some nurse bees that will be workers for the hive in a few days.

Offline Charlie Bezzina

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2022, 05:04:06 pm »
Hi. I opened the hives today to have a look at what the bees are up to. I managed to find the queen in the busy hive which was great! She is striped with dark bands. I didn't find any queen in the dwindling hive, but there were some young larvae so I'll find out soon who is laying them.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12403
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Queen of drones
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2022, 05:09:58 pm »
Hi Charlie, Good for you! I understand your level of satisfaction. Glad it worked out for good. Thanks for the update..

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.