Ants in Telescoping Top

[The15thMember]

I've discovered three black ant nests in three hives this spring between inner covers and telescoping tops.  I switched the solid inner covers to screened ones so the ants don't have any floor to set up shop on, and I sprinkled cinnamon in the covers as a further deterrent.  The ants dispersed and all seemed well, but today I noticed a trail of ants going up one of the hives again.  They aren't between the two covers anymore now, they are between the metal and the wood in the telescoping top.  Anyone have any ideas about how to get rid of them now that they are hunkered down where I can't get to them?  I'm sure they are sneaking some honey out of the supers, although I'm not sure how much of a real problem they are.     

[Ben Framed]

Reagan I 'think' I remember some of our fellow members posting about Carpenter Ant problems a few years ago. (Large Black Ants).   (Are the black ants you are referring to, Carpenter Ants?) If so, there is some kind of stuff you can put out but I can not remember the details of that discussion. If I remember correctly Beemaster2 was 'also reporting' of Crazy Ants on that topic as well.

Phillip

[cao]

Over the years I have come to find that I don't mind ants between inner and telescoping cover.  The reason being is that if there is ants there then most if not all of the time the hive below is doing well. 

[animal]

Carpenter ants .. black and about 1/2" long  OR 1/4" long and look a lot like a fire ant .. black butt, reddish front

little black ants ... annoying pesky nuisance that has a stinger but can't sting (unless on a little baby? maybe ?) Especially come out after the water table rises and under cedar trees, for some reason.
 
Either way, I would think Dawn dish soap ... 1 part soap to 2-3 parts water ..and inject it into the gap between the metal and wood .. but not on areas that bees touch.... fill 'er up, drain it out and put it back... Don't know how it would affect bees if they could get into it.

When they get into the house or car ... I kill them with bait spots made of sugar, boric acid, and water. in a thin jar lid. After they disappear from a particular area, clean with vinegar ... Pretty sure this would be REALLY BAD for bees, but it works great in the house.
The vinegar will wash away their scent trails.

Here's a strange question ... Will bees eat starches like grits ? Dry "quick grits" will kill ants .. do not know why it works. Have heard that dry instant works too ... but not the uncooked, or any version after it's prepared

[Occam]

I've discovered three black ant nests in three hives this spring between inner covers and telescoping tops.  I switched the solid inner covers to screened ones so the ants don't have any floor to set up shop on, and I sprinkled cinnamon in the covers as a further deterrent.  The ants dispersed and all seemed well, but today I noticed a trail of ants going up one of the hives again.  They aren't between the two covers anymore now, they are between the metal and the wood in the telescoping top.  Anyone have any ideas about how to get rid of them now that they are hunkered down where I can't get to them?  I'm sure they are sneaking some honey out of the supers, although I'm not sure how much of a real problem they are.     

Maybe a thin bead of silicone around the perimeter where the flashing meets the wood to sell the gap

[The15thMember]

Reagan I 'think' I remember some of our fellow members posting about Carpenter Ant problems a few years ago. (Large Black Ants).   (Are the black ants you are referring to, Carpenter Ants?) If so, there is some kind of stuff you can put out but I can not remember the details of that discussion. If I remember correctly Beemaster2 was 'also reporting' of Crazy Ants on that topic as well.

Phillip

Carpenter ants .. black and about 1/2" long  OR 1/4" long and look a lot like a fire ant .. black butt, reddish front

little black ants ... annoying pesky nuisance that has a stinger but can't sting (unless on a little baby? maybe ?) Especially come out after the water table rises and under cedar trees, for some reason.

They are just little black ants (Monomorium minimum, I'm not describing them as small and black).  They are minuscule little things, although they definitely bite or something when they get in my bee suit.   

Either way, I would think Dawn dish soap ... 1 part soap to 2-3 parts water ..and inject it into the gap between the metal and wood .. but not on areas that bees touch.... fill 'er up, drain it out and put it back... Don't know how it would affect bees if they could get into it.

My concern with this is that the water isn't going to drain back out very easily, and then I'm just saturating my wood with water, and I already have a mold problem, as you know.  (I had one hive growing two actual mushrooms under a lid today, I'm not kidding.)  The space the ants are occupying is so narrow; we are just talking about the little, tiny, infinitesimal space between the wooden top of the cover and the flat metal flashing that is stapled to it.  I doubt I'm going to be able to inject water into it very far, much less get it to drain out again.   

Maybe a thin bead of silicone around the perimeter where the flashing meets the wood to sell the gap

 
I will definitely do this to keep them out in the future, but I'm assuming I don't want to seal them all in there, right? 

[BeeMaster2]

Reagan,
Get some Terro Ant Bait.
This one.
https://www.acehardware.com/departments/lawn-and-garden/insect-and-animal-control/insect-bait/7013810
Amazon carries it.
Put it on the trail on the ground or inside the cover if the bees can?t get to it. Those ants can cause damage to the wood. I have never had problems with those micro ants bothering the bees. I have had them in my hives several times over the years. I never tried to remove them.
Jim Altmiller

[Occam]

I will definitely do this to keep them out in the future, but I'm assuming I don't want to seal them all in there, right?

I don't see that it would matter, not going to harm the hive or create a stink

[animal]

Terro ant bait is borax. Borax will kill any insect that I know of if they ingest it ... and it works really well. Scary well.

The liquid ant bait I mentioned for home use can be made with borax instead of ... or in combination ... with the boric acid. I've tried several different mixtures and settled on boric acid for ease of use and "just as effective" ..(Borax doesn't dissolve as well).
If borax or boric acid was soaked into the wood, dried, and sealed in; I would probably take the chance ... but be scared of it otherwise.

Your lids .. are they plywood or joined plank?
Have they gotten spongy/soft yet?

The small black ants I'm familiar with will grab on and hunch up like they are stinging but have never had them be able to do it. That's on the arms, hands or legs. It might be a different story if they got up into tender areas.
They like moisture a lot .. and in a house, they will almost always go for kitchen and bathroom. The most common heavy infestation in a house will be from having a very slow water leak and after damage occurs. They'll build a nest between softened layers of wood, especially between the floor and subfloor, or voids in plywood layers ... but you'll never see the fine sawdusty stuff you see with carpenter ants because they opportunistically build in already damaged wood. The metal cover would act like a warped layer of wood and give them a gap to make their nest.

Sealing them in would probably work. If the wood is damp though, silicone won't stick (even when it looks like it does) and any tiny gap is going to be exploited. Lexel will stick to wet material with pressure applied, but it costs 12 bucks a tube and is really hateful stuff to work with if you're not used to using it.
If the wood has already turned into a sponge, it might be time to peel it out and replace with a sealed piece of plywood.

[The15thMember]

I will definitely do this to keep them out in the future, but I'm assuming I don't want to seal them all in there, right?

I don't see that it would matter, not going to harm the hive or create a stink

Sealing them in would probably work. If the wood is damp though, silicone won't stick (even when it looks like it does) and any tiny gap is going to be exploited. Lexel will stick to wet material with pressure applied, but it costs 12 bucks a tube and is really hateful stuff to work with if you're not used to using it.
If the wood has already turned into a sponge, it might be time to peel it out and replace with a sealed piece of plywood.

I'm going to try just caulking them.  I know we have some caulk lying around, and I think that this top is dry enough.  That's the easiest and safest option. 

The small black ants I'm familiar with will grab on and hunch up like they are stinging but have never had them be able to do it. That's on the arms, hands or legs. It might be a different story if they got up into tender areas.
They like moisture a lot .. and in a house, they will almost always go for kitchen and bathroom. The most common heavy infestation in a house will be from having a very slow water leak and after damage occurs. They'll build a nest between softened layers of wood, especially between the floor and subfloor, or voids in plywood layers ... but you'll never see the fine sawdusty stuff you see with carpenter ants because they opportunistically build in already damaged wood. The metal cover would act like a warped layer of wood and give them a gap to make their nest.

I really don't think they are stinging me, but they definitely pinch me on my arms when they crawl through my bee suit mesh.  It's not painful unless there are like 30 biting me at one time (ask me how I know ).

Thanks for all the help, guys.  I'll let you know how it goes.     

[Kathyp]

I get them too.  The bees don't seem to mind and the ants don't seem to do damage.  I tried stuff like cinnamon, but like you, had no lasting results.
After a while, I just left them and it seemed fine. 

Only time it was an issue was when I used an internal feeder and they got into it.  Didn't like the feeder anyway, so didn't mind getting rid of it 

[FloridaGardener]

small nest...get the hive tool.

big nest...get the propane torch.

recurring problem...Aamdro bait.  the bees don't touch the Amdro.

[Occam]

small nest...get the hive tool.

big nest...get the propane torch.

recurring problem...Aamdro bait.  the bees don't touch the Amdro.

Good call, running the torch quickly along the metal top would raise the temperature under the sheet enough to kill the ants but not enough to heat the wood.

[Michael Bush]

Take a tupperware sandwich box and drill some 1/8" holes in it near the bottom.  Mix equal parts jelly, borax and water.  Put this in the sandwich box.  Put the sandwich box on the ant trail.

[The15thMember]

small nest...get the hive tool.

big nest...get the propane torch.

recurring problem...Aamdro bait.  the bees don't touch the Amdro.

Good call, running the torch quickly along the metal top would raise the temperature under the sheet enough to kill the ants but not enough to heat the wood.

That is a good idea.  I don't have a propane torch though.

[Michael Bush]

I have wiped out ant nests with a garden hose.  Use it to hydraulically mine the nest.  Push the running hose into the ground.  When the ground is really saturated and most of the ants are drowned, turn all of the nest over with a spade.  But the borax and jelly is easier...

[animal]

Most times water chases them somewhere else. Soap will help the water get into their body and drown them better.
For nests in the ground, my preferred method is lawnmower, piece of 1/2" FIP (NPT) steel pipe, section of heat resistant hose, a bucket(or washtub sized to the mound), a couple of bricks and some dirt.

Unscrew muffler from mower, screw in the 1/2" pipe finger tight with a good amount of teflon tape. Attach hose and run it to mound. Cover with bucket. Weight down bucket with bricks and seal around bottom with dirt. Crank up mower and let it run while you do something else. When they are all dead or dying at the secondary and tertiary mounds, shut the mower off. ... or do like I usually do, and forget until it runs out of gas.

works even better with truck exhaust, but you have to buy or make an adapter. Mine is made from fiberglass cloth, some aluminum flashing, and worm gear clamps.

The borax and jelly lure sounds great and easier than making a liquid.

Disclaimer: the thread size on my old push mower is 1/2" NPT ... same as the steel pipe. Yours may be different? For people in California... I've never tried it with an electric mower. Maybe y'all can try it and post results?