Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment

[salvo]

Hi Folks,

We all test for varroa,... in our own ways,

I don't have screen bottom boards. I don't count dots from my own hives. I am a mentor in my club. I teach about sbb, the theory and steps to using them. I try to TEACH newbees how to actually use these things on their own hives. Most people are not that technical. It goes undone. You know,... math and everything.

When visiting mentee hives, I pick drone brood in front of them, because it's easily seen by the mentee and can be an important, quick indication of a varroa load.

We talk about the futility of Sugar Shakes. We talk about Treatment Free. We teach and provide documentation as well as *screen top Ball Jars*, for alcohol shake. I, and others in my club, demonstrate their use. We get back: *But I don't want to kill my bees*! People don't alcohol wash as regularly as they should.

However I test, if one of my colonies' *numbers* are bad, I stop testing and just treat them all.

I'm to the point now, as I talk with *colleagues*, that most people will never *TEST regularly and effectively*. They will slowly lose their bees. It may not be until a following Spring or Summer, but the colony will likely not thrive year over year.

I'm now thinking that I should just *regularly* TELL people in the club to treat when I treat. Bypass all that *TEST TEST TEST* spiel. Most are not going to test. Would you suggest I should just start to coordinate club-wide treatments? This WAS our goal in my early days, 2011-2016. It fizzled because people sometimes need a bomb up their colony to get 'er done. Our big deal is that: So what happens if I treat yet my neighbor doesn't? I live next door to a mite bomb.

We show and demo lots of stuff, MAQS/FP. We demo OA Vap, talk about dribble. I don't dribble. Some around here do dribble or include it in the rotation in December.

Do you *test then treat* or do you usually just treat when you think you should?

Sal





 

[Ben Framed]

Salvo I appreciate your well thought out well worded post. I usually treat in August, December, and the Spring.  I am learning and nothing is written in stone in my program. It is understandable that some may shy away from alcohol at first. But when a few total losses of a hive or hives become a reality attitudes sometimes change. It?s all part of the learning process.   
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Phillip

[The15thMember]

Obviously everything I'm about to say is just my opinion, and as far as teaching others, while I have experience in some areas of teaching, I'm not a member of a bee club and I don't mentor, so I'm coming at this from a rather idealistic perspective.  Just my disclaimer. 

What I personally do is sugar rolls.  I am one of those people who can't stomach killing 100-300 bees once a month in an alcohol wash, and I have zero confidence in passive bottom board drop as a method of determining whether to treat or not.  I regularly do deep inspections because I have 10 hives or less and I enjoy inspecting, so whenever I see my queens, which is frequent, I do a sugar roll.  I don't test more than once a month, and if it's been two or three months since I've seen a queen or I'm concerned for some reason, I'll take some extra time to look for the queen next inspection and do a sugar roll.  Due to the less accurate nature of the sugar rolls, I multiply my mite count from the roll by 1.3 to compensate (a trick that HoneyPump taught me).

As I am foundationless, my bees also make a lot of drones, so once swarming season is over, I cut out my drone brood, check it for mites, and then feed it to the chickens.  I do this as an ongoing passive treatment of sorts, another way to get a mite count, and a way to keep the drone numbers low during my big summer flows, since they are just a drain on resources. 

My treatment threshold is somewhere around 3% and depending on the season, the size of the hive, whether I'm expecting a flow, etc. I either use FormicPro, OAV, or I do a German trapping treatment, which also gives the colony a brood break.  One hive with high counts does not cause me to treat the whole apiary, although it does cause me to keep a closer eye on counts and sugar roll more frequently. 

I personally am of the belief that treating without knowing counts and on a schedule is foolhardy.  Without knowing numbers before and after treating, I wouldn't know how well my treatment was working.  I think that treating when not necessary and on a schedule contribute to mites developing resistance to treatments.  As someone who is science-minded, I would be hesitant to take any step without data, and knowing my mite counts over the course of the season enables me not only to know when I need to treat, but which colonies are more naturally resistant, which are the queens I would prefer to breed from (among other characteristics).  The only time of year that I treat all the colonies without a prior mite check is if I had several colonies with high counts going into winter.  Then I will treat the whole apiary with OAV over the winter. 

I am also of the belief that teaching new beekeepers proper parasite management is extremely important.  It's a part of beekeeping, whether we like it or not, and learning to navigate treating and doing your own testing and evaluation of treatments is a vital skill to being a good beekeeper.  Having someone do something for you is never a good way to learn.  I would hope that through instruction and training, new beekeepers would learn to be responsible with their own bees, and ultimately with all the bees in the neighborhood as a result.  I'm sure that's far more difficult in practice than theory, but what will happen to the next generation of beekeepers when their mentors aren't around anymore if they haven't learned how to handle this by themselves?               

[Ben Framed]

I am one of those people who can't stomach killing 100-300 bees once a month in an alcohol wash

Woo wee I wouldn't do that either Reagn with the very accurate resulting alcohol wash test method (kill 100-300 bees once a month). On the other hand if I was using the sugar shake method I would for 'certain' test my bees 'no less' than once a month.
I test mine in the Spring, Mid Summer, and Fall.. Three times a year basically unless I find a problem.. I am 'basically' in agreement with the Bob Binnie layout since he is a Commercial Beekeeper with no telling how many hives, and his livelihood depends on being successful, which starts with keeping his honey bees healthy.

As far as build up to immunity by treatment , The Organic Oxalic Acid, and Organic Formic Acid treatments are no worry since Varroa Destructor has a soft exoskeleton, (unlike our honey bee), which offers outright exposure to the vaporized Oxalic. As well or the other type Formic Acid methods... Thankfully our Honey Bees with the hard outer exoskeleton give us a real advantage when we choose those methods.
Other pesticide 'type' treatments, (and that term might not be the proper term, but if not, I hope all will know what I mean), may indeed build up resistance as has been reveled with some of those products. 

I would like to commend you for you diligence in your program in the care of your bees which sounds to be fine tuned for the amount of hives you have, making your hobby beekeeping regiment feasible for a 10 hive beekeeper who has the luxury of the time for such a regiment. When using the sugar shake method diligence is 'a must' in my opinion or we know what is destine to happen... As we were taught by HoneyPump when you lost one of your hives when you had less than five hives if I remember correctly or was it three? I miss TheHoneyPump. I hope his health is holding up and I would hope each of our fellow members would read his paper which he wrote especially dedicated to you..  He is a fine person.

Some larger beekeepers, like Bob Binnie, would most likely find the sugar shake method and program unfeasible with many hundreds of hives.. Keep up the good work my friend.

Phillip

[The15thMember]

I would like to commend you for you diligence in your program in the care of your bees which sounds to be fine tuned for the amount of hives you have, making your hobby beekeeping regiment feasible for a 10 hive beekeeper who has the luxury of the time for such a regiment. When using the sugar shake method diligence is 'a must' in my opinion or we know what is destine to happen...

Some larger beekeepers, like Bob Binnie, would most likely find the sugar shake method and program unfeasible with many hundreds of hives.. Keep up the good work my friend.

Phillip

Thanks, Phillip.  I think that's part of the point I was trying to make.  Obviously what I do wouldn't be practical for big commercial guys, and it probably wouldn't be practical for more than 10 hives.  What works for some people and some bees won't work for others.  So learning about mites and treatments with the ability to be flexible and try different things is something important for beekeepers to learn, because what works well for your mentor may not necessarily work best for you.

As we were taught by HoneyPump when you lost one of your hives when you had less than five hives if I remember correctly or was it three? I miss TheHoneyPump. I hope his health is holding up and I would hope each of our fellow members would read his paper which he wrote especially dedicated to you..  He is a fine person.

I had only two hives when I lost one to varroa.  I have missed HP lately too.  Hopefully he will post again soon.  This is his busiest time of year, I imagine, so perhaps he just doesn't have time for the forum at the moment. 

[Ben Framed]

I am glad you posted this topic Salvo. I have been watching the Varroa Destructor situation in Australia closely.  I am sure our fellow members from that Country will appreciate reading what we have learned if things do not turn around for the good there.

Phillip






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[Ben Framed]

The15thMember
What works for some people and some bees won't work for others.  So learning about mites and treatments with the ability to be flexible and try different things is something important for beekeepers to learn, because what works well for your mentor may not necessarily work best for you.

True words Reagan. As you and I have learned throughout our Honey Bee Journey, there is more than one way to achieve good results and goals. (Kind of like the old cat skinning phrase lol).   

[cao]

We all test for varroa,... in our own ways,


Do you *test then treat* or do you usually just treat when you think you should?
 

Well not all of us do.  Have had bees 10 years now and can't say that I have even looked for mites.  Just went through bees at home yard, 43+ queenrite hives with 10+ splits waiting for queens.  Still need to go through my outyard.  Another 30+/- hives there.  Thats up from about 40 that made it through the winter.

Just another perspective.

[Occam]

We all test for varroa,... in our own ways,


Do you *test then treat* or do you usually just treat when you think you should?
 

Well not all of us do.  Have had bees 10 years now and can't say that I have even looked for mites.  Just went through bees at home yard, 43+ queenrite hives with 10+ splits waiting for queens.  Still need to go through my outyard.  Another 30+/- hives there.  Thats up from about 40 that made it through the winter.

Just another perspective.

Love to hear of the success Cao, it's inspiring to see.

[2Sox]

This is a truly informative and thoughtfully answered thread. I?m grateful to all who posted.

For me, I can only say one thing about testing for varna. I never never test and never will, unless I see the logic of doing so clearly. Varoa is here to stay for now.  I treat with MAQs every August and once more in October. That?s it.

[Ben Framed]

I am posting this for the benefit of those who may not have seen it. Robo wisely has it highlighted in the sticky section of  the Disease and Pest Control Forum.

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=54623.msg497375#msg497375

Phillip

[beesnweeds]

I have to respectfully disagree with the other posts.  If want to experience what a disease free / almost mite free colony can do you have to test with a wash using alcohol or dish detergent.  Sugar rolls are not accurate and kill the bees anyway.  I try and test at least monthly during the flying season and treat as necessary.  I was unable to split all my hives this spring so I left out bait hives.  I watched one bait hive fill up yesterday afternoon and I moved it after dark.  Today I opened it to add frames and in less than 24 hours they easily built over one deep frame of comb.  Its not fair to the bees to let them limp along when sacrificing 300 bees allows them to thrive and not just survive.  If the very few mentees I take on dont test then thats on them.  The ones that visit my yard, the light bulb flicks on.  The best thing for mites is backyard beekeepers have tons of other excuses for low honey production and failing colonies.  To cold, to hot, pesticides, fungicides, herbicides, to dry, to wet, on and on.

[Bill Murray]

So just my 2 cents. I saw nothing here about CO2. I did them side by side with alcohol. wash for 3 years and it was almost a wash. I check twice a year, after treatments. Before spring flow, and before winter bee build up or fall flow. I try to run 30 to 40 hives in a yard and NEVER found 1 hive in a yard that didnt have a huge mite load. That may be 1 out of 30 but when that one crashes in the middle of summer all the rest carry mites back home. Ask me how I know?

As for beesnweeds comment
 

The best thing for mites is backyard beekeepers have tons of other excuses for low honey production and failing colonies.  To cold, to hot, pesticides, fungicides, herbicides, to dry, to wet, on and on.

These things happen every year and if you dont know whats going on in your apiary or managing correctly for where you live how do you know why your not making honey

[Michael Bush]

    "All the boring and soul-destroying work of counting mites on sticky boards, killing brood with liquid nitrogen, watching bees groom each other, and measuring brood hormone levels?all done in thousands of replications?will someday be seen as a colossal waste of time when we finally learn to let the Varroa mites do these things for us...

    "I have never yet counted even a single sample of mites from any of my bees. I consider counting mites as a way of evaluating Varroa resistance to be fraught with all sorts of shortcomings and difficulties. It's very time consuming and hence the size of the apiary, the number of colonies tested, the gene pool, and the income available all start to shrink. It's also very easy for the results to be skewed by mites migrating from other colonies or bee yards. "?Kirk Webster

    "You don't grok the desert by counting the grains of sand."--Robert Heinlein, A Stranger in a Strange Land

"Bees that combine genuine hardiness, mite-resistance and productivity can only be maintained in the long run by having many hundreds of colonies constantly exposed to mites?and all the other known and unknown stresses in the real world, commercial beekeeping environment. This is the only way the bees can be tested for all the characteristics they need in order to thrive. And this testing and selection must continue year after year?to keep building up their resilience, and help the bees adapt to a changing world."?Kirk Webster

"I?ve thought a lot about how in the world to describe what?s really happening in an apiary that hasn?t used treatments of any kind for more than five years; where mites are now considered to be indispensable allies and friends, and where the productivity, resilience, profitability and enjoyment of the apiary are just as good as at any time in the past. I wouldn?t dream of killing any mites now, even if I had an easy and safe way of doing so."--Kirk Webster, A New Paradigm for American Beekeeping

https://kirkwebster.com/index.php/a-new-paradigm-for-american-beekeepers
https://kirkwebster.com/index.php/whats-missing-from-the-current-discussion-and-work-related-to-bees-thats-preventing-us-from-making-good-progress
https://bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beeshardestthing.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

And here is why your treatments are not very effective:
https://bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm

https://bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm

[Ben Framed]

There 'might be' those who 'may' know more about it than Kirk Webster?   Dr Samuel Ramsey comes to mind.  No harm or offence intended...

[Michael Bush]

You obviously never met Kirk Webster.

[Ben Framed]

There 'might be' those who 'may' know more about it than Kirk Webster?   Dr Samuel Ramsey comes to mind.  No harm or offence intended...

You obviously never met Kirk Webster.

What would be you point as compared to my comment?   

[Michael Bush]

Kirk started beekeeping when he was in his early teens.  He has been doing treatment free beekeeping for more than half a century.  He learned from Charles Mraz among others.  He went to England and hung out with Brother Adam and modeled a lot of his beekeeping and queen breeding off of Brother Adam's.  He has made his entire living doing nothing but beekeeping from his early teens until now.  All of the information on overwintering nucs that you hear now from Michael Palmer originated with Kirk who taught it to Michael.  Kirk popularized overwintering nucs rather than buying packages.  The main reason most people don't know Kirk is he is a Luddite.  He has no email address.  Not even an answering machine.  He lives completely off the grid with solar panels for his electricity.  His writings are only on the internet because of the work of his friends who re-posted articles he had published in the bee magazines.  Kirk is humble, brilliant, meticulous, philosophical, spiritual, gentle, kind, generous, well read, hard working... and the list goes on and on.  Dr Samuel Ramsey is an up and comer who I respect as a person who thinks outside the box, but Ramsey is just a child and has never made a living at beekeeping.

"It will be readily appreciated that in the course of many years and daily contact with bees, the professional bee-keeper will of necessity gain a knowledge and insight into the mysterious ways of the honeybee, usually denied to the scientist in the laboratory and the amateur in possession of a few colonies. Indeed, a limited practical experience will inevitably lead to views and conclusions, which are often completely at variance to the findings of a wide practical nature. The professional bee-keeper is at all times compelled to assess things realistically and to keep an open mind in regard to every problem he may be confronted with. He is also forced to base his methods of management on concrete results and must sharply differentiate between essentials and inessentials."--Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey, Brother Adam

https://kirkwebster.com

"Beekeeping now has the dubious honor of becoming the first part of our system of industrial agriculture to actually fall apart. Let?s stop pretending that something else is going on. We no longer have enough bees to pollinate our crops. Each time the bees go through a downturn, we respond by making things more stressful for them, rather than less--we move them around more often, expose them to still more toxic substances, or fill the equipment up again with more untested and poorly adapted stock. We blame the weather, the mites, the markets, new diseases, consumers, the Chinese, the Germans, the (fill in your favorite scapegoat), other beekeepers, the packers, the scientific community, the price of gas, global warming - anything rather than face up to what?s really happening. We are losing the ability to take care of living things." - Kirk Webster

[Ben Framed]

Both have available public access to their writings.. My meeting Mr Webster would not add or take away from 'his' knowledge; As I would not try to 'impose' the research of Dr Ramsey', or anyone else's research upon him (which is again, all public accessible). Nor would I impose Kirk Websters' quotes on Dr Ramsey if I were to meet Dr Ramsey. I have no desire to pit one against the other.

As I 'attempted' to make clear when I ask my question, no harm or offence intended toward Kirk Webster or your quotes. I have no doubt that he is a nice guy. My question was and is an honest question.

Referring to Dr Ramsey as a child in comparison might be taken as offence by Dr Ramsey personally? Especially from what he has uncovered and is still uncovering concerning varroa destructor, not to mention the many destructive viruses which they carry, along with his up-most 'earned' respect from his Scientific Bee Research 'Peers' the world over...

This topic was not meant to be a treatment, or treatment free topic from my understanding of the OP.  But of methods of varroa testing. An area where Dr Ramsey should be and expert..

But since it seems to have now 'drifted' that way, (treatment free or varroa resistant bees), you might be interested in the work of Richard Noel and his world wide network of friends and researchers. Richard has also studied under Mike Palmer.
Richard is 'far advanced in knowledge' concerning 'treatment free bees' and very enthusiastic concerning the subject ... In case you missed it, I posted the following 'three years ago'.. Check out that topic. You will also find Richards video at the same address....

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=53970.msg488317#msg488317

[Michael Bush]

There is no comparison.   It's apples and oranges.  Or would be if Webster had not spent a lifetime of being scientific as well...  Ramsey is a bright young scientist who thinks outside the box and the world is lucky to have him.  Webster is a lifelong philosopher, scientist and professional beekeeper with a lifetime of experience with bees and making a living with bees.