Cutout queen troubles

[drjeseuss]

I'm new to bee keeping and recently got to collect my first colony during a cut out from a friend's house. The cutout went well but we never found the queen. Once home I placed the hive, along with cutout frames hoping the queen was there but missed . I had several buckets of comb we removed. One had a lot of pollen and many bees seemed interested in this piece so I tucked it under the hive for a close snack while they got back on their feet . A week later I checked on them and found a few emergency cells. I guessed the queen didn't make the trip so they were replacing her. Good enough.  Another week later I was replacing the bottom board with a screened board to help with condensation. While moving things I noticed there was still a clump of bees on the pollen comb below the hive. They were all huddled and didn't move when smoked. I nudged them a bit and the queen was there ! In my surprise, excitement, and panic I put her into the hive where she quickly moved down onto brood comb. I tried to find her within a few minutes but didn't so I closed the hive up to let things settle down as the guards were getting nasty. In hind sight, I think this was all bad. If she was living on a piece of comb (inches below the entrance) would she have still been the hive's  queen, or now seen as a rival queen? Would her old queenless hive allow her back or more likely kill her. In hindsight I would have caged her but done is done. Do you think she would destroy the emergency cells? I'm hoping I haven't set off events that will doom them all. Anything I could do at this stage to ensure I don't end up queenless? This is my only hive so no way to produce a queen for them, and I wouldn't want too as these are thriving locally and are very docile.

[Colobee]

As you said - done is done. If they accept the old queen, your OK. It's possible there was enough of the old queen's scent to maintain her acceptance. That she was living that close to the entrance without being killed by them raises that possibility. If they don't, one of your emergency cells may work out. Those may have built because of the lack of her eggs/larvae & not the lack of her scent. I'd leave them alone and hope for one or the other. You've got a couple pretty good chances there.

[drjeseuss]

Assuming she's back to business as usual, will she exterminate the emergency cells as is, or wait for them to emerge and fight it out?  Should I remove those frames to a NUC until they emerge and possibly grab a second queen for another "backup" hive?

[Colobee]

You may have still have both options. It depends on how your bees handled her re-introduction. Did they accept her, or dispatch her? I think I would leave them be for a few days, or perhaps weeks, and give the old queen a better chance to get settled back in. Removing those cells might remove the only good chance they have left, as there are likely no more viable (young enough) larvae  for another QC. If you do move them, put them right on top, above a queen excluder (or two). Trying to make a separate split would be the riskiest move.

[drjeseuss]

Makes sense.  I do want to get myself to a point of a second hive (for insurance more than anything), but want one working right first for sure.  I feel confident I can muster up a second hive later this year or early next after they build back up.  I don't mind letting nature take it's course, but don't want to be in a spot where the new queen takes out the cells, then gets herself taken out.  Bad day for all if that happens.  I'll check tomorrow for eggs.  The QCs I found should emerge around Wednesday, so that'll give me a chance to at least know if I've got the old queen or a new one from this year.  I don't care either way, so long as one makes it through.  I like that these were collected locally and seem to have little issue with mites, etc (so far) and are quite calm.  If I still have the old queen, and one of the QCs emerge, might she take off with a swarm of her own to get a start?  That would be bad in my case with a fairly low population at the moment.  If this is a risk, what's the preferred way to avoid it without risking the others?  If the old queen is laying (for sure), should I remove the QCs?

[Kathyp]

put your location in your profile.

give her a few days to settle and then take a look.  take some pictures so that you can go back and look at them on your computer.  that way you don't have to try to retain all that you see and if we ask you questions, you can either post the pics or refer to them.

most of the questions you have can only be answered by you getting back in there, but wait a few days.

[drjeseuss]

Thanks for all the help so far. I've been feeding honey (1:1 mix) back to the colony that was collected during their cutout. It's been taking them 3-5 days to get through a pint jar. After returning the queen yesterday I gave them a fresh jar. Today after work I found the jar empty. I hope that's a good sign that they are getting back on task with the queen returned alive...   Or maybe it was just the weather. Either way, seemed comforting. Tomorrow I'm going to do a quick queen or egg hunt. I'll be sure to grab pics for reference.

[drjeseuss]

Took a peek at the hive today. Most of the frames of comb from the cutout are being refilled with nectar and a bit of pollen. Combined, I'd guess I have about 1-2 frames of capped brood, none uncapped.   The good news though is that they have started to draw out a frame from a starter strip and are about half done. This is all new since I found the queen a few days ago. Best of all, it's got fresh eggs in it! Seems all is well for the moment. I'm going to give them some peace for a while.  Anything I should worry about at this point?  Eventually I'd like to replace the cutout comb for freshly drawn comb. What is a good pace and technique to do this?

[Colobee]

Sounds as if all is well. Nicely done!  & Yes, try to limit your intrusions.

[drjeseuss]

While I didn't spend a lot of time digging once I found the eggs, I did not confirm if the QCs were still present and viable.  Should I have any concern for them now that the original queen is back on the job?  Any risk of a new queen emerging and taking off with a swarm from this small population?  What about fighting among the new and old queen?  If these are risks, I feel like I should remove the QCs before trouble.  Thoughts?

[capt44]

If they have a new queen emerge I believe it will be the other way around.
The old queen will grab half the population and swarm leaving the hive to the new queen.
Now if she doesn't kill the other queens in their cells you could have smaller after swarms.

[drjeseuss]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, I should remove the emergency QCs they produced since I have a laying queen, right?  The hive's population is small and I'd hate to see it cut down for any reason.

[drjeseuss]

Just an update on things for others that might find themselves in a similar situation.  With much consideration and many conflicting opinions here and there I decided to peek in the hive once more. On previous looks prior to locating and returning the queen I found three emergency queen cells staggered several days apart. My concern was what this could cause with the queen returned. My biggest fear was for the original queen to swarm with half my small population, then the emerging queen getting eaten by a bird on her mating flight... My kind of luck. I figured with the queen back and some fresh eggs I could intervene a bit this time if needed to replace the queen. As the emergency cells were due any day I wanted to check things out. I found that the emergency cells were now redesigned a bit and holding nectar. I'm not sure if the workers did this upon the queens return or as result of her terminating them. In any case I it looks like its just her now. I feel much more relaxed about their future. I want to pull a split to get a second hive. What is a good indicator of readiness in the current hive before I do this? How late would be too late to get a split ready for a Midwest winter?

[Colobee]

'Glad to hear it's working out.
 
There are no simple single answers to your questions. Season, location, colony strength, and a number of other factors should all be taken into consideration. My inclination is to try to mimic the natural cycle when possible - so splits are made around swarm season, which is pretty much over by mid-June around here. That also usually coincides with the beginning of the main flow, which normally gives (swarms &) splits enough of a boost to build up enough to overwinter. Feeding between flows may help. You can also feed them into the fall, after the flows.
 
Tip up the back of a good colony (just an inch or two) to gauge it's weight. Do that any time you get to wondering how they are doing but don't want to intrude for whatever reason.

[drjeseuss]

Just a quick update, this hive is now doing very well with their queen back.  Since the initial move in, I've replaced the migratory bottom with an IPM screen botton, the migratory top with a 'garden' outer and screen inner cover.  I've also shuffled frames a bit to help them grow in the right places.  They've nearly filled their two mediums, I'm adding a third this weekend with 10 frames of starter strip.  I still need to get out the cutout comb, but I want them stronger before I do any heavy hits like that.  I'm seeing lots of eggs in a solid pattern, and a LOT of open brood.  They've also started to cap some, including a few drones.  They've got several frames heavy with pollen, and the rest are necter, with a combined total of about 2 frames already capped honey.  They sure are happy to have their queen back.   :)