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Author Topic: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board  (Read 18294 times)

Offline Stone

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I was wondering if anyone has used this piece of equipment, what you think of it and its usefulness, or if some other technique can be used in its place.  Seems pretty clever to me.

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/10-Frame-Double-Screen-Board/productinfo/694/

Bjorn,
What do you think? Should this be placed in the "Fluff equipment and over-hyped-crap" category?   :-D
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 07:02:54 pm by Stone »

Offline Robo

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2010, 05:48:10 pm »
It was originally called a "Snellgrove" board as it was used for Snellgrove's swarm prevention technique.    It is surely not an essential piece of equipment, but does offer many advantages when re-queening though -> http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/queen-introduction/
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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2010, 06:37:16 pm »
I bet 99% of beekeepers could not even describe the full process including timing, of the proper use of the double screen. Maybe that should tell you something.  :roll:

This is another piece of equipment that has very specific uses and for most, is a dust collector and garage filler.

I rank it up there with the queen muff, marking pen, and marking tube.   :lau:
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Offline Stone

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2010, 07:05:27 pm »
Bjorn,

Do you ever use it or have found it useful? 

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2010, 07:19:05 pm »
Bjorn,

Do you ever use it or have found it useful? 

As it is designed, yes, once to experience it. For swarm control, I think the steps are long and it is a tedious approach for swarm control. The snellgove technique is for swarm control after the first signs of swarm cells. I find removing the queen, making splits, or other approaches a better fit for my management and desired results.

I have a few in the garage. Picked up in auctions or sales as they were part of a package deal. But I never outright bought one. That would be a waste.
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Offline Stone

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2010, 07:53:13 pm »
I'm entering my third year of beekeeping and have not yet done a split (the last two years being awful!) but when I first read about the double screen, I immediately thought it would be very easy to use for both swarm control or for splits.  Again, I have no practical experience with either. My guess is the easiest way to do a split is the "walk away". What do you think?

And what do you think would be an easier technique(s) for swarm control?

Offline Jim134

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2010, 08:25:10 pm »
I bet 99% of beekeepers could not even describe the full process including timing, of the proper use of the double screen. Maybe that should tell you something.  :roll:

This is another piece of equipment that has very specific uses and for most, is a dust collector and garage filler.

I rank it up there with the queen muff, marking pen, and marking tube.   :lau:

BjornBee...
Have you read the book by L.E. Snelgrove  :?

   http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=462



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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2010, 10:33:59 pm »
I bet 99% of beekeepers could not even describe the full process including timing, of the proper use of the double screen. Maybe that should tell you something.  :roll:

This is another piece of equipment that has very specific uses and for most, is a dust collector and garage filler.

I rank it up there with the queen muff, marking pen, and marking tube.   :lau:

BjornBee...
Have you read the book by L.E. Snelgrove  :?

   http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=462



                     BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

There is a book? I thought I read long enough on the snellgrove swarm procedure already. I'm sure there is enough information in other books and sites. I know I found it fully detailed in the first bee book I picked up. Not really sure at this point of buying another book.

So what part are you referencing, questioning, or going tell me to read?

If you want to detail out the entire use of the double screen board and the whole procedure step by step, I'll leave that to you.  ;)

Perhaps if wrote it all out, that would help others determine if they want to buy some and try it out. I have already. And I simply find it labor intensive and difficult to other swarm prevention techniques.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 11:51:03 pm by BjornBee »
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Offline fish_stix

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2010, 12:08:50 am »
I'll agree with Bjornbee. Many of the items for sale in those catalogs are there to snag swarms of beekeepers. In that respect, the bee suppliers seem to have learned well from fishing lure manufacturers. Make a new lure each year, paint it in a rainbow of unnatural colors and fishermen will go into a feeding frenzy over them. Doesn't hurt the fish populations at all.

Offline deknow

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2010, 01:31:00 am »
i've never owned (or used) one. 

we use mostly top entrances, and i've sometimes moved the entrance of a strong colony to the back of the hive, and put a weak nuc with a bottom entrance ontop to "catch the foragers".  i usually think of a snellgrove board when i'm doing this, as the easy swapping of entrances would do a similar thing (and more elegantly).  this is at least one purpose (and robo mentions another...requeening) besides the snellgrove technique where it would be useful.

i figure one of these years i'll win one in a club raffle, and play with one then.  certainly not necessary for our purposes.

deknow

Offline Robo

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2010, 09:43:33 am »
but when I first read about the double screen, I immediately thought it would be very easy to use for both swarm control or for splits.  Again, I have no practical experience with either. My guess is the easiest way to do a split is the "walk away". What do you think?

First of all you need to take a step back an evaluate the intent of the operation.  For a commercial beekeeper, the double screen board is most definitely a useless piece of equipment.   But likewise, cell bars, cell cups and rearing equipment are equally useless to a backyard beekeeper with just a couple of hives.   So just because one beekeeper finds something  as "fluff & over-hyped-crap",  doesn't mean it might not be important to your methods.

Consider your average hobbyist with 2 hives.   I would beg to argue that the double screen could be one of the most valued pieces of equipment. 

I can't count the number of times I have heard.......   I just spent 20something bucks and recently requeened one of my hives and now it is queenless.  It has no brood and I can't get another queen or don't want to spend another 20something bucks.   What should I do?

Well,  for someone with a bunch of hives and resources available to them,  it is not a big issue.  But for a guy with two hives, where 50% of his apiary is in jeopardy, it is not as easy.   He can rob some brood from his strong hive,  hoping it doesn't set it back too much,  but it will be close to a month before a replacement queen starts laying and another month before brood starts hatching.   That hive has quite the challenge in front of it to get strong enough for the winter,  let alone have any surplus.  Or he can spend the money and try to get another queen if he can,  and hope thing work out better, but now he risks a laying worker and another 20something bucks blown.   Of course that brings up another subject of the "queen introduction frame"  that is equally considered "fluff & over-hyped-crap" by some,  but you will find many here that have saved a hive with it and swear by it.

Wouldn't a better option be to just restore the old queen and brood she has been laying?    Unfortunately,  the standard practice for requeening is to kill the original queen first and then attempt to introduce the new queen.  At that point there is no turning back and any issue with introducing the new queen,  the quality of her laying, all leads into the situation above.    But with the double screen,  you always have the option to restoring the original queen right up until you decided you are happy with the laying of the replacement queen.   Not only that, but you get the advantage of two queens laying in the hive during the induction period.

Of course if you are content with doing walk-away splits,   this might not be applicable to you.  But a lot of folks stay away from emergency queens and purchase reared queens, so it does apply to them.   With emergency queens, you have a whole different set of risks. http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/can-you-afford-emergency-queens/

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Offline Jim134

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2010, 10:52:09 am »
You can all so use a Snelgrove board for a 2 queen hive.



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« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 11:11:01 am by Jim 134 »
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Offline Scadsobees

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2010, 11:28:07 am »
It's one of those things that are a) really easy to make and b) useless unless you figure out how to use it and it fits in your management style.  I have one and use it occasionally, but it isn't much in my management style.  You can do most of the same things without one, but it has its occasional uses.  I wouldn't consider it over-hyped...or crap.  But it is something easily lived without.

Technically everything beside boxes, frames, a board for the bottom and a board for the top are fluff...or a hollow log :-D.
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Offline Stone

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2010, 03:00:57 pm »
Robo,

You make some great points!  Commercial beekeepers would see items such as these differently from those of us are who are hobbyists/sidliners.  I have four colonies - one of which was a cutout - actually a large birdhouse that bees settled into.  I probably will requeen and then split the other three in spring.  They built up beautifully in fall - and they make swarm cells like mad - and I think this double screen piece of equipment would serve the purpose of splitting well.  I'm requeening because they are exceedingly defensive - even with smoke - and because of their excessive swarming tendencies.


Offline Jim134

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2010, 08:02:08 pm »
I'll agree with Bjornbee. Many of the items for sale in those catalogs are there to snag swarms of beekeepers. In that respect, the bee suppliers seem to have learned well from fishing lure manufacturers. Make a new lure each year, paint it in a rainbow of unnatural colors and fishermen will go into a feeding frenzy over them. Doesn't hurt the fish populations at all.


 I got my first Snelgrove board in 1958 form a.I.Root       
                  



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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2010, 02:23:47 am »
I know a local beekeeper here who, while he doesn't do the full snelgrove thing, uses the double screen to do a simplified demaree.  Basically he just splits the hive early with a double screen and then either recombines at the honey flow or he makes an actual split.

In other words he puts the double screen between the two brood boxes and makes both a top and bottom entrance.  The queenless half raises another queen.  When he combines he now has a two queen hive with more bees and if he splits they were sharing warmth during the chilly part of the spring.

I have several and have used them as a bottom board when I run out, as a way to unite two colonies (let them smell each other for a week and then remove it), but otherwise they languish most of the time... I could certainly live without them and probably won't bother to buy more.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2021, 11:12:02 am »
I know a local beekeeper here who, while he doesn't do the full snelgrove thing, uses the double screen to do a simplified demaree.  Basically he just splits the hive early with a double screen and then either recombines at the honey flow or he makes an actual split.

In other words he puts the double screen between the two brood boxes and makes both a top and bottom entrance.  The queenless half raises another queen.  When he combines he now has a two queen hive with more bees and if he splits they were sharing warmth during the chilly part of the spring.

I have several and have used them as a bottom board when I run out, as a way to unite two colonies (let them smell each other for a week and then remove it), but otherwise they languish most of the time... I could certainly live without them and probably won't bother to buy more.



Demaree method
Description
In beekeeping, the Demaree method is a swarming prevention method. It was first published by George Demaree (1832-1915) in an article in the American Bee Journal in 1892. Demaree also described a swarm prevention method in 1884, but that was a two-hive system that is unrelated to modern "demareeing".



« Last Edit: September 03, 2021, 11:57:51 am by Ben Framed »
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2021, 11:24:03 am »
This subject was foreign to me though I had heard it mentioned after I joined here. I think it was Van from Arkansas which I first heard mention it. Recently I watched a video voicing a through rounded aspect of features and benefits of the useful advantages, including use as a splitting aid. Along with advantages mentioned by RoBo and others above. In my opinion this is an excellent tool. Any of you here at Beemaster 🐝 use it?
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2021, 12:06:17 pm »
I actually ordered a Snelgrove board a few months ago, but there was a mix-up with the order and I never received it.  I was planning on using it predominantly for combining colonies or for overwintering smaller colonies on top of larger ones, but I was also curious about using it for swarm prevention and some of the other things you can do with it.  It seems like a very versatile piece of equipment.   
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2021, 12:59:02 pm »
I actually ordered a Snelgrove board a few months ago, but there was a mix-up with the order and I never received it.  I was planning on using it predominantly for combining colonies or for overwintering smaller colonies on top of larger ones, but I was also curious about using it for swarm prevention and some of the other things you can do with it.  It seems like a very versatile piece of equipment.

Sorry you order was botched... There has been some excellent information of uses of this tool, along with instructions teaching how to use this tool, along with how to make it yourself. I will send a PM
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Offline jimineycricket

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2021, 09:26:28 pm »
        It seems to me that the definitions of a snelgrove board and a double screen board have gotten blurred.  A snelgrove board has multiple gated entrances.  A double screen board has only one entrance.  Both Bob Binnie and Mr. Ed use the double screen boards on a regular basis.  On their websites their videos show how to make and use them.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2021, 10:47:03 pm »
Thanks jimineycricket, I have watched those videos of the two folks you mentioned. They do always call their board the double screen dividers. I did look up snelgrove board earlier and this is what I found from better bee.  As you say there probably is a difference but better bee says snelgrove invented the double screen divider board as follows.

Adding it is interesting to see Mr Binnie has learned a way to incorporate its use in a commercial setting by using it for his fall splits for one of his examples....


Betterbee
" The double screen board was invented, and first described, by an English beekeeper named Leonard Snelgrove in 1934. This board allows you to make a vertical split with both parts remaining in a single stack after the split. But Snelgrove's invention goes beyond just keeping the two parts together on the same base. The double screen board has three sets of paired doors that allow some of the bees to be shifted between the two units after the split in order to maintain a non-swarmy assortment of the various age-classes of bees in each part of the split."

Mr Binnies' and Jeffs' only have one entrance as I recall as you stated.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 03:48:24 pm by Ben Framed »
Matthew 10:16
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Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2021, 10:55:04 pm »
Do you use either version of these Jimmy? If so which one?
Matthew 10:16
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Offline jimineycricket

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2021, 02:36:16 pm »
          Yes, after loosing a hive that swarmed and the virgin did not return from her mating flight.  So, I keep a double screen board with me all the time.   I also use it for just splitting a hive like Mr. Ed does, or for temporarily splitting a hive.   The Snelgrove board gives me a headache trying to figure how to set it up.  :grin:
           BTW, looks to me like the paragraph quoted from BetterBee has scrambled the definition of a Snelgrove and the double screen board.                                                                                                                                                   
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2021, 03:10:33 pm »
Quote
jimineycricket
BTW, looks to me like the paragraph quoted from BetterBee has scrambled the definition of a Snelgrove and the double screen board.


If the snelgrove, (original design), is more complicated what are the advantages?

Even Jeffs' version and Mr Binnies' version are quite a bit different in design.
Do you have a preference? If so which do you prefer? Is there a particular
reason for this preference?

Thanks Jimmy for your valuable input..


"Double screened dividing board splits. "  video (a)
"What is a double screened dividing board, and how is it used? " video (b)
Jeff Horchoff Bees. youtube


"Nuc Production and Harvest Using Double Screen Boards
Bob Binnie. youtube



« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 03:42:43 pm by Ben Framed »
Matthew 10:16
16.
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2021, 03:47:06 pm »
Some good stuff posted here from the post 11 years ago; as one example, RoBo 2010 Reply #10, to the most recent post by The15Member and jimineycricket..


« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 07:23:32 pm by Ben Framed »
Matthew 10:16
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Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Offline Honey Hive Farms

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2021, 09:40:04 am »
We do double screens between hives if we are running low on equipment. We have had good luck. In Missouri we put two hives together with a double screen to help the heat to get say two smaller hives through the Winter.  Saves a top and a bottom.  :)
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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2021, 10:55:50 am »
don't over think it.  a snelgrove IS simply a double screen board.  the extra "gated openings" are just a convieniance so you don't need to worry which way it's put on the hive.

Offline paus

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2021, 11:54:46 am »
????? Why is the screen double, how far apart are the screens,  what kind of screen , why not just one screen ,#8, window screen, could a single screen be used for a combine, would the bees fight with only one screen, how can pheromones be spread through two screens. are there cases when you want pheromones to be distributed between the top and bottom boxes, etc.

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2021, 12:04:46 pm »
????? Why is the screen double, how far apart are the screens,  what kind of screen , why not just one screen ,#8, window screen, could a single screen be used for a combine, would the bees fight with only one screen, how can pheromones be spread through two screens. are there cases when you want pheromones to be distributed between the top and bottom boxes, etc.
I've seen bees fight through a single screen several times.  The two screens in a double screen/Snelgrove board aren't very far apart (I'm not sure the exact measurement), but the gap between them allows the scents and pheromones to circulate between the two groups of bees without them being able to reach each other to fight.   
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2021, 12:48:24 pm »
????? Why is the screen double, how far apart are the screens,  what kind of screen , why not just one screen ,#8, window screen, could a single screen be used for a combine, would the bees fight with only one screen, how can pheromones be spread through two screens. are there cases when you want pheromones to be distributed between the top and bottom boxes, etc.
I've seen bees fight through a single screen several times.  The two screens in a double screen/Snelgrove board aren't very far apart (I'm not sure the exact measurement), but the gap between them allows the scents and pheromones to circulate between the two groups of bees without them being able to reach each other to fight.   

I build mine with 3/4" Advantech Board or Legacy LP in the Bob Binnie style.  I 'think' Mr Binnie uses a high grade 3/4" plywood. I also use duriable number 8 hardware cloth. Very strong and durable for the long haul.
Matthew 10:16
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Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2021, 12:56:29 pm »
One other thing I do that I have not seen is I add a run of Titebond III along the edges of the screen for two purposes. To cut down on snag from the cut screen edges and adding strength for screen support..
Matthew 10:16
16.
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2021, 01:08:07 pm »
Also Paus; When making splits with the 'double screen divider board', the bees in the queenless section will develop a new queen with eggs provided. If this new queen fails to come back from the mating flight, for whatever reason the divider board can simply be removed and you again have the entire hive intact. Almost no risk involved.

Another option considering the above case. In case the virgin does not make a successful mating flight, you can add a 'mated queen if you wish', keeping the divider board in place until you are sure the new queen has been proven, laying eggs and developing brood etc. 'Then' you can safely move the new split.

Yet another option, a new mated queen can be introduced in the queenless part, right off the bat, when making a split without going through the waiting period of developing a new queen. With the dividing board installed (for insurance reasons), she will readily be accepted, when proper steps are taken just as in any queenless, mated queen introduction.

Since the bees from the two stacked boxes with the DSDB can not touch, leaving them unable to 'distribute' the queen rite sections' pheromones 'by touch'; Which from my understanding is the key in all above scenarios .. (They can not physically distribute the queens pheromones 'directly' from bee to bee if you will), in the quenless section which sparks a natural desire or need for a queen. I suppose this board DSDB could also be referred as the insurance board... lol




« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 02:06:36 pm by Ben Framed »
Matthew 10:16
16.
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2021, 01:12:42 pm »
We do double screens between hives if we are running low on equipment. We have had good luck. In Missouri we put two hives together with a double screen to help the heat to get say two smaller hives through the Winter.  Saves a top and a bottom.  :)

This is also an added advantage of using the double screen dividing board. Thank you for pointing this out.
Matthew 10:16
16.
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Offline Bill Murray

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2021, 09:53:12 am »
I use double screens all the time for splits. I make them out of old 3/4 inch feeder lids when they have seen their better days. Its like American express I don't leave home without them. the resons were already posted by Ben
Quote
When making splits with the 'double screen divider board', the bees in the queenless section will develop a new queen with eggs provided. If this new queen fails to come back from the mating flight, for whatever reason the divider board can simply be removed and you again have the entire hive intact. Almost no risk involved.

Another option considering the above case. In case the virgin does not make a successful mating flight, you can add a 'mated queen if you wish', keeping the divider board in place until you are sure the new queen has been proven, laying eggs and developing brood etc. 'Then' you can safely move the new split.

Yet another option, a new mated queen can be introduced in the queenless part, right off the bat, when making a split without going through the waiting period of developing a new queen. With the dividing board installed (for insurance reasons), she will readily be accepted, when proper steps are taken just as in any queenless, mated queen introduction.
I also found it saves hauling piles of equipment all the time. When the splits are ready you know exactly what you need  next trip to the yard. The other-thing is I can also make early, small 3 frame splits on top of a double due to the heat rise, if they dont take just put frames back in brood box, remove and install 3 more.

Offline NigelP

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2021, 03:55:23 pm »
Couldn't agree more Bill. I use Snelgrove boards all the time for swarm control, easy peasy. I tend to ignore all the detailed opening and shutting times of various entrance wedges, unless there is a serious flow on and use a Snelgrove board more as a physical spilt with extra entrance.
What is slightly staggering is that no-one has mentioned that Snelgrove described (and detailed)  2 methods of swarm control. One comes under swarm prevention (Snelgrove method1) and the split is done before any queen cells are seen. This is useful if you have local bees that are annual swarmers. The second method (Snelgrove method 2) is performed when you see queen cells in the hive. The great advantage of Method 2 is that initially the queen is kept in the same box as the nurse bees and queen cells. The fliers return to the lower box and as the top box has now lost all it's swarming initiators (scout bees), all the queen cells in the top box get torn  down by the bees themselves. This includes all the hidden queen cells you would have missed. It takes a leap of faith to try this for the first time, but it's one the few actions in beekeeping that works over 90% plus of the time. Bees being bees there is always an occasional exception.
Snelgrove's only mistake was returning the queen to the lower box after 3 days......but that as they say is another story.
 :cool:

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2021, 07:20:06 pm »
NigelP I haven't read Snelgroves' instructions. I learned this method from Bob Binnie. (DSDB) I do not return the queen to the bottom after three days. In fact I leave her on top until I move the split, (after I am certain the bottom has an established laying productive queen). Then I move the entire top to a another yard. I did this after extraction this season with a few as an experiment and It worked super!!
Matthew 10:16
16.
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Offline NigelP

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2021, 04:29:22 am »
Yes, exactly Ben. Very similar to the way I proceed. I often don't want a new queen so leave bottom box with frame of sealed brood and check this frame for any unwanted queen cells. Leave for 2 weeks until the "Scout bees" have matured into foragers and then "swarm fever" is over and boxes can be directly united back together.
Or if I want a new queen from a particular line I can introduce a frame with eggs to the bottom box and let them get on with it. A very flexible and accommodating method. The only drawback is I often end up with very tall stacks of brood boxes and supers.....
Snelgroves book is an interesting read, his rational about what he was doing was erroneous (he could only surmise from the limited data they had in those days).
I think like many things in beekeeping few ever read the original source of any methods and pass on the Chinese like whispers versions which then become entrenched as erroneous dogma.
For example, many in the UK use and promote Demaree as a method to go to when you have queen cells, i.e  swarm control....when it's primarily swarm prevention, a small but very important difference.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 06:51:41 am by NigelP »

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2021, 08:11:31 am »
NigelP I look forward to reading Snelgroves book, thanks for your interesting enthusiastic input. I share the same enthusiasm!

Phillip
Matthew 10:16
16.
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Offline NigelP

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2021, 05:58:24 pm »
Its a fascinating study Ben, just don't get bogged down with his minutia on the timed  opening of this window and closing that one etc.
He was UK Victorian and the minutia and exacting detail was expected as such  :wink:
It's also a short book, so won't take long to read. He also details many of the other swarm prevention/swarm control methods that were (and still are) used/taught  today, with his thoughts on their efficiency or not as the case may be.
Snelgrove boards (UK) Double screen boards (USA) rule OKAY  :cool:

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2021, 02:27:56 pm »
Quote
NigelP
Its a fascinating study Ben, just don't get bogged down with his minutia on the timed opening of this window and closing
that one etc.
He was UK Victorian and the minutia and exacting detail was expected as such  :wink:

Nigel I appreciate detail. I will keep your good advice in mind as I go.

Thanks,
Phillip
Matthew 10:16
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Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Offline yes2matt

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I'm entering my third year of beekeeping and have not yet done a split (the last two years being awful!) but when I first read about the double screen, I immediately thought it would be very easy to use for both swarm control or for splits.  Again, I have no practical experience with either. My guess is the easiest way to do a split is the "walk away". What do you think?

And what do you think would be an easier technique(s) for swarm control?
By now you have some #8 screen on hand. Just make one.  Or buy one (one!) And try it. There's no harm. Maybe it will be just the trick for you.

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