Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => DOWN UNDER BEEKEEPING => Topic started by: Guitarman on April 22, 2023, 05:15:51 am
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Last spring here in Australia I caught a swarm in my backyard. From a neighbours hive who didn?t want or care about them. I did try to get him to take his bees but he is elderly and undergoing cancer treatment and said there yours you look after them. It was the 2 Nd swarm. The first one flew away overnight.
Now I?m not a beekeeper. Know nothing but I do have internet. I got 3 frames with foundation from a friend and grabbed a foam fruit box with lid and made a temporary nuc box. Only got stung about 50 times in my hands cause the stingers went straight through my cotton gardening gloves. My friend assured me the swarm was placid as their bellies are full of honey. But anyhow I got them in the box and they stayed.
I went and bought frames boxes excluders base lid and built a box over the following weeks/ months. Still no bee suit so I wasn?t in a hurry to open my temporary foam box. My hands were still swollen.
After a few months I opened the nuc box and they had been very busy. They had fused 2 frames together as I had left a gap and hadn?t pushed them tight against each other. The frames were full brood and honey but I couldn?t separate them for fear of killing the queen. I was going to run a sharp knife down before I thought better of it.
So I moved the 3 frames into a ten frame box. They have been going crazy all summer and me not being a beekeeper. Single dad with 4 kids and working full time. Just didn?t have a chance to put the super on as I hadn?t had time to melt the foundation onto the frames.
And now my Dilemma. I opened it today first time. The smell of honey was intense and I could see capped honey at the top. And all frames are fused together. Not just the original 2 that I put in from the nuc.
Why? Because I bought cheap fake foundation on eBay. It?s not pure beeswax. So the bees rip it out. Throw it away. They then build essentially with no foundation and go all over the place. So I have all these frames fused together. Full of brood and honey and no way finding the queen.
It?s autumn now in Sydney. And I thought of ripping it apart and shaking the bees into another box but they would have to start again and it?s the wrong season from what I?ve read. I know they will swarm come spring but I can?t check for queen cells or anything with the labyrinth they built.
I really need some advice on what I should do.
When I tried to pull 2 frames apart, I was tearing the comb and honey was just running everywhere so I stopped.
Or do I go crazy rip it apart. Grab the honey. Kill lots of brood in process. Pray the queen survives the destruction and elastic band the salvageable comb into new frames. My worry is time of year. They need the food for winter. Will they make a new queen at this time of year if she gets squashed or will they perish. I?m too new at this and whilst I watched a lot of YouTube. I still have lots of confusion. Have no idea what to do. Appreciate any advice or help.
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I really need some advice on what I should do.
Try and find a local beekeeping association and join and ask for their advice. If they have any beekeeping courses attend.
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First you need equipment. Then it sounds like you need time. If you are pressed for time the only way out is buy equipment.
What you need:
Boxes, frames and foundation and maybe leather gloves and most important a smoker.
Question:
So is there 3 frames in a 10 frame box?
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Guitarman,
Being as you are entering your winter season, do nothing. Now is not the time to bee tearing your hive apart, especially since you do not have any experience doing a cut out. I recommend that you find a local bee club and join it. Use the next 4 months to study up as much as you can before going into the hive. Beemaster has hundreds of thousands of post with a lot of good information. Search on JP the Beeman for great bee removal videos.
In beekeeping, a good rule is, if you don?t know what to do, do nothing. The bees know what to do.
Jim Altmiller
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Welcome to Beemaster, Guitarman! :happy: I totally agree with everything Jim said. As you are heading into winter, just leave them be until spring. They have everything in the hive set up to their liking for winter, and the cross-comb isn't at all a problem for the bees, only for the keeper. Over the winter, try and learn, learn, learn, as much as you can about beekeeping. Read books, watch YouTube videos, and/or join your local bee club. Don't just learn about beekeeping, learn about the bees themselves, their biology, their life history, their seasonal cycles in your area. As Ace mentioned, get yourself some basic equipment and tools, so that you can easily work the colony, and try to watch videos of people doing hive inspections, or if the opportunity presents itself, inspect a hive with a local beekeeper, to learn how to manipulate the frames and work with the bees so they remain calm and don't sting. Ask us any and all questions you may have along the way.
As you are clearly aware, you have jumped head first into this, without any experience, knowledge, or the tools to manage this situation. I wouldn't just hand you a milk cow and expect you to know how to feed it, house it, care for it, and milk it if you have never had a milk cow before and didn't have a barn and a pasture where it could live and flourish. The same goes for honey bees. The only key difference is that, since they are not really domesticated, they should get along over the winter just fine by themselves, and by spring, you should be adequately prepared to manage the colony in a way that is beneficial for both you and the bees.
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Welcome Guitarman. All good advice given in the above posts. As you live in Sydney, you should have some time to deal with this issue if you want to. It basically depends on where you live. If you are in western Sydney and you experience cold winter nights, follow Jim?s advice and wait until close to spring. August would be a good time to begin inspections and start taking action to correct the problem. September may be too late. If you live close to the coast, the bees will slow down a little but will keep working through the winter. They may even produce a surplus of honey if there is anything flowering through that time. If that situation occurs, you will have major problems. Pop into one of the beekeeping supply shops such as Iwoohoo if you live out near Campbeltown or Hornsby Beekeeping and ask for some advice. They will sell you a suit and smoker and offer advice as to people who maybe able to help you. You really need someone to help you with this issue if you want to reduce your chances of failure. From what you have said, it sounds like you have a lot of cross comb where the bees have formed comb that runs diagonally across a number of frames. If that is the problem, you will end up losing a bit of comb, honey and brood as you correct the issue. If you do want to correct some of this issue now and without help, I would make sure that you have a suit on, smoke the bees by putting about 3 or 4 puffs of smoke towards the entrance of the hive. Keep the smoker about a foot away from the hive as you do this. Wait about 30 seconds and open the lid of the hive. Use a hive tool, chisel or a screwdriver to lift one corner of the lid. When the lid is hinged up a couple of inches, put a couple of extra puffs of smoke across the top of the frames. Remove the lid and place it in a safe place close to the hive with the lid inverted. You should now be ready to start work. As you are new to beekeeping and this job could be messy, put on some rubber dishwashing gloves and get one of your kids to run some tape around the ends of the gloves. Using a long, thin knife, cut the comb around one outside frame only. Move slowly and carefully. Remove this frame and gently shake most of the bees back into the hive. If you have a bee brush, use it to slowly and carefully remove the majority of the bees from the comb. At this stage you will have honey dripping everywhere, bees caught up in the honey and comb all over the place. Cut some of the comb back, remove comb that is crooked and twist some comb to get it to sit straight on the frame. Have a container with a lid handy to drop the cut comb and surplus honey into. You may have to use rubber bands to keep some of the comb straight and in place. When you have done this, turn the frame through 180 degrees and pop it back into the hive. Close up the hive and walk away. Being the outside frame, there will be fewer bees on it and the queen should be in deeper towards the centre of the hive. The bees will clean up the surplus honey overnight and the frame will be clean by the next morning. Leave the bees for a week and then check your handy work. If you are happy with the outcome, you could try the outside frame on the opposite side. If you are not happy with the result, get someone into help you. Progressively attacking frames towards the centre will upset brood and also put the queen at risk. The centre of the hive could be cleaned up in spring when the bees have the opportunity to replace the queen if she is accidentally killed. Don?t try to clean up too many frames at once. Small hive beetle in your area would be an issue. You need the hive to remain strong and issues such as honey, exposed and damaged frames with diminished bee numbers is a recipe for disaster. Good luck with the project. If I were in your situation, I would get an experienced beekeeper to help with the issue. Don?t forget to register your hive with the Department of Primary Industries and follow their requests in relation to hive management and record keeping.
Cheers
Les
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Hi Guitarman,
Welcome to Beemaster Forums! I trust the good advice given by the previous responses has helped you in laying out a plan which will lead to fixing the trouble in your hive. As you have found we are always glad to help.
Phillip
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Welcome Guitarman. All good advice given in the above posts. As you live in Sydney, you should have some time to deal with this issue if you want to. It basically depends on where you live. If you are in western Sydney and you experience cold winter nights, follow Jim?s advice and wait until close to spring. August would be a good time to begin inspections and start taking action to correct the problem. September may be too late. If you live close to the coast, the bees will slow down a little but will keep working through the winter. They may even produce a surplus of honey if there is anything flowering through that time. If that situation occurs, you will have major problems. Pop into one of the beekeeping supply shops such as Iwoohoo if you live out near Campbeltown or Hornsby Beekeeping and ask for some advice. They will sell you a suit and smoker and offer advice as to people who maybe able to help you. You really need someone to help you with this issue if you want to reduce your chances of failure. From what you have said, it sounds like you have a lot of cross comb where the bees have formed comb that runs diagonally across a number of frames. If that is the problem, you will end up losing a bit of comb, honey and brood as you correct the issue. If you do want to correct some of this issue now and without help, I would make sure that you have a suit on, smoke the bees by putting about 3 or 4 puffs of smoke towards the entrance of the hive. Keep the smoker about a foot away from the hive as you do this. Wait about 30 seconds and open the lid of the hive. Use a hive tool, chisel or a screwdriver to lift one corner of the lid. When the lid is hinged up a couple of inches, put a couple of extra puffs of smoke across the top of the frames. Remove the lid and place it in a safe place close to the hive with the lid inverted. You should now be ready to start work. As you are new to beekeeping and this job could be messy, put on some rubber dishwashing gloves and get one of your kids to run some tape around the ends of the gloves. Using a long, thin knife, cut the comb around one outside frame only. Move slowly and carefully. Remove this frame and gently shake most of the bees back into the hive. If you have a bee brush, use it to slowly and carefully remove the majority of the bees from the comb. At this stage you will have honey dripping everywhere, bees caught up in the honey and comb all over the place. Cut some of the comb back, remove comb that is crooked and twist some comb to get it to sit straight on the frame. Have a container with a lid handy to drop the cut comb and surplus honey into. You may have to use rubber bands to keep some of the comb straight and in place. When you have done this, turn the frame through 180 degrees and pop it back into the hive. Close up the hive and walk away. Being the outside frame, there will be fewer bees on it and the queen should be in deeper towards the centre of the hive. The bees will clean up the surplus honey overnight and the frame will be clean by the next morning. Leave the bees for a week and then check your handy work. If you are happy with the outcome, you could try the outside frame on the opposite side. If you are not happy with the result, get someone into help you. Progressively attacking frames towards the centre will upset brood and also put the queen at risk. The centre of the hive could be cleaned up in spring when the bees have the opportunity to replace the queen if she is accidentally killed. Don?t try to clean up too many frames at once. Small hive beetle in your area would be an issue. You need the hive to remain strong and issues such as honey, exposed and damaged frames with diminished bee numbers is a recipe for disaster. Good luck with the project. If I were in your situation, I would get an experienced beekeeper to help with the issue. Don?t forget to register your hive with the Department of Primary Industries and follow their requests in relation to hive management and record keeping.
Cheers
Les
Guitarman, as Les is by far closest to where you live (the rest of us aren't even in your hemisphere!), his advice is what you should heed most closely.
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Still would like to know how many frames there are.
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Sorry for the delay. I have 9 frames in the 10 frame box. The temp nuc I made when I originally caught them, they cross combed 2 frames cause I left a large gap. So I put those 2 in the 10 frame box and another 7 frames.
Les I bought the frames boxes etc from Iwoohoo at Campbelltown. I bought lots. I have 3 boxes and 40 frames in total. One lid and base. The base is the mesh bottom one with a draw. Also bought a queen excluder. I pull out draw and squash the hive beetles. Found lots of watery like honey in the bottom today. Too thin for honey.
I?m new to beekeeping yes. I have a veil on a hat. My motorcycle gloves and long clothes and lots tape. That?s how I checked them the other day. I have a patio weeding tool which is working ok as a hive tool. I was given an ancient hand spinner 2 frame,galvanised a smoker and the veil by a friend who knows nothing about bees but inherited the bee stuff.
Yesterday I ordered online a bee suit, brush, hive tools various and bee gloves. Should he here soon. Will attach some pictures as soon as I can work out how to reduce their size.
And thank you so much everyone. I really appreciate your help.
The local beekeeping courses are far too expensive for me. I did look into them. I?m a fast learner but sometimes no matter how much you read, things don?t make sense. An example is bees from another colony get attacked if they go into another hive or so I thought. But I watch guys on YouTube shake bees from one hive into another if they need numbers. My brain goes won?t they just have a massive fight and kill each other. Some things just don?t make sense to me. Or they split a hive. My brain goes the bees will just leave and go back to the queen. Why would they stay. I know I have lots to learn before things fall into place and start becoming logical.
Try and get some pictures uploaded.
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Found lots of watery like honey in the bottom today. Too thin for honey.
Mmm; Are you finding a lot of Small Hive Beetles in your hive? Since you do not know much about bees (yet), You really need a mentor to help you out since you have bees but no education of them. You need a lot of studying and reading as well.. For a crash course of education, I recommend you logging into Michael Bushes 'link'.
http://bushfarms.com/bees.htm
Phillip
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Beekeeping is a lot more art that science. You can often combine bees with no fighting if you understand the "mindset" of the bees. Generally nurse bees don't fight so if you shake bees off of brood combs they are mostly nurse bees and so they probably won't fight. A weak hive combined with a weak hive will almost never fight. Three weak hives combined are even less likely to. If circumstances don't seem to point to any of these scenarios you can always do a newspaper combine. A lot of smoke makes a difference as well. That's just the issue of combining. There are lot's of other issues that are just as complex.
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Thanks Phillip and Michael.
Hive beetles. About 5 when I slide out the tray. I just squash them. I need to put lime I?ve read somewhere in the tray to kill them. Are they causing the watery liquid to be in the tray or is it me ripping comb when I tried to pull cross combed frame out?
Thanks for explaining that to me Michael. I have engineering degree and am very practical but sometimes that can interfere with the arty side of your brain and the science blinds you. Sometimes things are grey. Not black or white.
Les I really appreciate your thoughts and will remove an edge frame that isn?t too badly locked in with cross comb. It?s only half built and I can easily run a knife and separate it. Will remove cross comb and turn 180 as you said. That?s one free I should get. Only 8 more to go. Not so sure I will be able to do any others but will investigate when my suit arrives.
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As long as you don't see small hive beetle larvae you're fine. If you see larvae, the bees are in trouble. The way to avoid that trouble is don't let the density of bees get too low.
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Ok figured out the pic thing. Might increase resolution. This is my one and only. Hive. My spare boxes and frames.
Les this is the view from my balcony. I circled the gum tree which is full of white eucalyptus flower. I know my bees are still working hard in autumn bringing in a lot. I?m in close to the Coast and get sea breezes. That?s Botany Bay in pics. I?m located In Sutherland shire. Bees are very busy still. That tree is keeping them busy and there?s probably more.
If you think I still have time to maybe separate a few frames, appreciate your thoughts.
Thanks Michael will google what they look like so I know what I?m looking for but no larvae spotted yet. The hive is very active so I?m guessing any uninvited guests will be quickly dealt with.
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As long as you don't see small hive beetle larvae you're fine. If you see larvae, the bees are in trouble. The way to avoid that trouble is don't let the density of bees get too low.
And when larvae is present you will soon find watery like honey in the bottom, too thin for honey along with honey frames that look shiny, or wet. This is where you will find SHB larvae in abundance. The way to know for sure is inspect the honey frames themselves. This is the reason I suggested a mentor to come in and help you, and I will add asap.
Phillip
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(https://bushfarms.com/images/SmallHiveBeetleLarvae.jpg)
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Yep, Good picture Michael.
Guitarman you would also find some of the fallen larvae in the bottom. If so and you look closely there will be a powdery looking substance on the bottom tray, and beneath this 'powder', (finely ground up wax), will be where larvae hides. At these points the hive is in critical condition. (Michaels picture and the latter described). The larvae is very small.
Phillip
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Guitarman,
The water you saw in the bottom is probably from rain or condensation. If it is condensation, I recommend that you add foam board insulation to the underside of the lid. It will also minimize bearding.
The picture Michael post below shows small hive beetle larvae on the frame.
Jim Altmiller
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Guitarman,
The water you saw in the bottom is probably from rain or condensation. If it is condensation, I recommend that you add foam board insulation to the underside of the lid. It will also minimize bearding.
The picture Michael post below shows small hive beetle larvae on the frame.
Jim Altmiller
A very good chance you are right Jim and I hope so. He desperately needs bee-education. Again I suggest Michaels' link for a 'quick start' in honeybee knowledge.. Good stuff there and to the point... Any questions he can ask here and the archives are a treasure trove of information as you have mentioned earlier.
I am happy that Guitarman, a new beekeeper, chose to join us here at Beemaster . The same reason I joined Beemaster a few years ago, (bee-education) and support, and I am so glad I did. I knew almost nothing about bees lol.. And I still have plenty more to learn may I add!
Phillip
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Sorry for the delay. I have 9 frames in the 10 frame box. The temp nuc I made when I originally caught them, they cross combed 2 frames cause I left a large gap. So I put those 2 in the 10 frame box and another 7 frames.
Foundation in the 7 empty frames? I think if there was only two frames of bees I would have carefully separated them with a piano wire. Not fond of the color black for hive boxes.
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Hi Guitarman,
You have a good climate and mild winters in your area. My in-laws live in Sylvania so I know the area well. The flowering tree is possibly a bloodwood and they should be finishing up soon. There should be plenty of garden flowers to keep the bees ticking over during the winter. A lighter colour would be preferable for your hive. Darker colours attract more heat and can create issues during the hot days of summer. I did a test many years ago on empty boxes of different colours. The really dark boxes were 5 degrees hotter on the inside on a warm summer day. If the liquid in the bottom of the hive is sticky, it could be a beetle problem. If it?s just water, it could be condensation or rain that has blown into the hive. Make sure that the entrance to the hive faces north and that the back of the hive is slightly higher than the front. I assume that you have a fair cover of bees on all frames if the outside frames is partially built out. Clean up the outside frames first and see how you go. Things happen a bit easier as you gain confidence in working the bees.
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I did find one larvae but I thought it came from somewhere else cause it was too large, about an inch long. After seeing that photo it definitely looked like that. Might get in there today, it?s a lovely sunny day and there very active. Might take a video of inside if it is at all possible and upload it to YouTube. Going to be hard to video with the head gear on. Will try and separate one or 2 outer frames as Les said. I think it?s a good start. I?m now a little worried about the hive beetle.
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Yes the colour isn?t ideal but I was in a hurry to get them into a proper box as they had been in a foam fruit box too long. By the time I bought everything and assembled it I just grabbed some leftover exterior house paint I had. Unfortunately all the light colours were interior paints. The dark green was the only exterior paint. Im sure to find some lighter paint that someone is tossing out and I will paint them again. There was only a couple days in the summer I saw them out front fanning the entrance.
Acebird, yes the initial 2 frames in the nuc were cross combed. When I first opened the nuc , I thought about grabbing an old guitar string and a car battery and slicing straight down then realised the queen is in there somewhere and that would be a bad idea.
So I put it into the ten frame box along with 7 others cause I couldn?t fit the tenth. All frames tightly wired with foundation. I watched a few vids and got that part down ok. The problem is I bought cheap foundation off the internet. I think it has a lot soy wax. The bees tear it up, throw it out front and crumble it into the tray at the bottom. They hate it. Won?t build on it. That?s what created this mess.they then build from scratch. Problem is they been going cross ways. And now I have all 9 frames fused very heavily with a very active full young queen hive.
Once again thanks so much for everyone?s input.
Les I?m hoping to learn by helping someone with bees when there doing maintenance. I?m more than happy to help anyone who could do with extra set hands when tending to their bees. I?m sure I will find someone with hives who could do with some free help.
Will try to get some pics and video when I open up the hive.
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I took a video and uploaded it to YouTube. Here?s the link.
https://youtu.be/t1EONgdoEXw
I hope this helps. Really difficult to film in between the frames.
Appreciate any feedback.
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I took a video and uploaded it to YouTube. Here?s the link.
https://youtu.be/t1EONgdoEXw
I hope this helps. Really difficult to film in between the frames.
Appreciate any feedback.
Good video, I could see almost all of what you were pointing out. I would guess, based on what I could see, that the frame on the right side that you were thinking about trying to cut free probably doesn't have brood, only honey, just based on the look of the wax and the typical arrangement of a nest (brood toward the center, stores toward the edges; although I have seen plenty of colonies not abide by this "rule"). But the bees that had their heads in the cells, that I could see at least, didn't look to be feeding brood to me, just either eating or working the honey. I agree that the colony seemed very happy and calm, and that they could probably take another box IF you have another flow coming, which I don't know if you do.
My question about the liquid on the bottom board is the same as Les's: does it feel sticky, slimy, or just wet? If it's sticky, it's honey; if it's slimy, it's honey beetles have ruined; if just wet, then it's just water, but, as Les mentioned, you may need to change the tilt or direction of the hive, check the top for leaks, and/or increase their ventilation (if it's condensation as opposed to rain getting in).
Also, just a friendly reminder, all worker bees are female, so SHE was stinging your wrist. :wink:
I have an idea, and I'm not sure if it's a good one, since I've never had a hive this cross-combed, so I've never done this on this scale, and I'm not familiar with your seasonal rhythms of brood-rearing and flows. But given your completely understandable trepidation about trying to separate all this comb, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to try and manipulate the hive to get this box to be only honey. Then you could remove the whole box, harvest the honey, and then the crazy comb would be out of the hive forever. I have done this with several connected frames that had brood on them, which I wanted to separate, but was worried about the queen and didn't want to waste the brood. But I think the most frames I've ever had connected was four.
Everyone, do you think Guitarman could undersuper/nadir another box (place another box under this one), with at least some quality foundation, inspecting it regularly to be sure it's drawn properly and correcting any misdrawing early so it doesn't get out of hand. Just continue to ignore this box as the hive grows, and when adding boxes, always leave this cross-connected one on the top. I'd would imagine at some point in the seasonal colony cycle, the bees will have moved the brood nest down, leaving the cross-combed box as the super, which can then be harvested. Is that a viable option?
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Reagan,
That is a viable option but it depends on how much flow he will have before winter fully sets in. If it is a good flow and he has about six weeks, yes. That?s about two brood cycles.
If you add a deep super below this box they will probably move down into it and move honey if they don?t have a flow.
Jim Altmiller
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With the outbreak of Varroa in Australia, NSW DPI requires alcohol wash tests to be performed every 16 weeks. This is going to be a pressing issue for you. Jump onto their website and have a look at how this is performed. It will mean that a brood frame will need to be removed from the hive to undertake that task. Ask your neighbour for advice. He may also be able to show you in how it is done. He may also have some idea in relation to adding a super at this time of year. If there is a lack of nectar coming in, the bees will ignore the new frames and won?t draw comb. Reagan?s idea of eventually moving this box above a queen excluder and then harvesting the honey by cutting out the comb has merit.
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Just to clarify, so we're all on the same page here, would this hive be expected to shut down over the winter season or not? If so, how long is that dormant season in this region?
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I spent some time in NSW and talked to a lot of beekeepers. The flow never shuts down. They make a crop, summer and winter.
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I took a video and uploaded it to YouTube. Here?s the link.
The best frame to pull is the forth. Slowly wedge 1,2,3 together and pull out the forth. Once that is out you will have room to get the others out. Put the frames in a new box. As you can see it is most important to keep the frames touching one another.
If you were to use a guitar string do not heat it just pull it through slowly from top to bottom.
I suspect you put too many foundation frames in at once and they tore up the outside ones that they weren't using at the time.
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Thank you so much everyone for your advice. Really appreciate it. Can?t thank you all enough.
So It looks like I will put an under super on tomorrow and then monitor it weekly. That might be best way to figure out if they have enough flow or not from the progress.
Ace bird. I just watched the video. So much easier than suiting up to have another look. Your very observant. The 4th frame indeed does look like the best chance without too much damage but I?m worried about slicing the queen with a wire when I do remaining frames. I like the idea of getting them to move downstairs before I run a wire to separate. When that time comes the 4 th frame great place to start.
The liquid in tray is watery, not slimy. The box has no ventilation. It may be condensation. We have had a bit rain lately and humidity that goes with it.
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So It looks like I will put an under super on tomorrow and then monitor it weekly. That might be best way to figure out if they have enough flow or not from the progress.
Ace bird. I just watched the video. So much easier than suiting up to have another look. Your very observant. The 4th frame indeed does look like the best chance without too much damage but I?m worried about slicing the queen with a wire when I do remaining frames. I like the idea of getting them to move downstairs before I run a wire to separate. When that time comes the 4 th frame great place to start.
As far as setting up this new box goes, I'm not sure if you have acquired any better quality foundation or not. Just so you know your options, foundation is not required (I personally have never used foundation), but if you would like to use some, you may want to get something different than what they tore out before. Either way, whether you decide to use foundation or not, it can be difficult to get the bees to draw straight in a box without any drawn comb, since the bees use preexisting comb to gauge the correct distance apart to build the next comb. This is why it's so important to keep the frames tight together; the frames are designed to be 1 "bee space" apart, so that the bees center the combs on the frames. I agree you should check the bottom box once a week, and if anything isn't drawn correctly, cut it out and rubber band it in place. Once you have a few decently straight frames, the rest of the box should follow pretty easily. Whenever they get a few frames drawn, place an undrawn frame in between two drawn ones (i.e. drawn, undrawn, drawn, undrawn, etc.). We call this arrangement checkerboarding, and an entirely checkerboarded box will usually be drawn straight every time, whether you are using foundation or not.
The liquid in tray is watery, not slimy. The box has no ventilation. It may be condensation. We have had a bit rain lately and humidity that goes with it.
If this hive has an entrance reducer in their entrance, you could remove it to help give them more air flow. Since you have a clear plastic inner cover, you don't have a lot of options for top ventilation without getting a different kind of inner cover, short of simply propping the lid up slightly. I'm having trouble understanding your bottom board from the video. Is that the insert we are looking at? Is your bottom board screened or is it solid? If it's screened you can remove the insert and that should really help.
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Yes I have bought better quality foundation but only 7 sheets. I was thinking splitting some and putting half sheets as I saw in a video somewhere alternating with full sheets. I love the idea of no foundation. Hearing that you do it successfully is very tempting to me. But I will make sure I don?t get into the same mess again. Once is enough.
My bottom board is screened. I have pictures attached of my exact bottom board.
It?s a beautiful sunny warm autumn morning here in Sydney today. Tomorrow Is forecast 4 days very heavy rain. Should I still put the box under today or better to wait till this forecast heavy rain passes?
Thanks 15thmember appreciate your input.
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The foundation light coloured is the good ones. Pure bees wax.
The box of yellow ones (from China) I bought very cheap. Mixture bees wax and soy wax. One of the sellers was Australian and said he uses them in his own hives and they are fantastic and work well. I beg to differ but I?m inexperienced and maybe bees will tear up good quality foundation too.
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Here?s the pictures. Thank you moderators for fixing up my error.
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Thanks 15thmember appreciate your input.
You're welcome, it's my pleasure! :happy:
My bottom board is screened. I have pictures attached of my exact bottom board.
Oh, I understand. Then I'd recommend just removing the insert to give them some more air flow.
Yes I have bought better quality foundation but only 7 sheets. I was thinking splitting some and putting half sheets as I saw in a video somewhere alternating with full sheets. I love the idea of no foundation. Hearing that you do it successfully is very tempting to me. But I will make sure I don?t get into the same mess again. Once is enough.
I have no experience with foundation, so I'm not sure if it's a better idea to alternate full sheets, or cut them in half horizontally and use them as starter strips essentially. You could also just go for none. Like I said, when I got my first package, I installed them on completely blank frames. I did have to do some cutting and pasting for a few weeks, but you may have to do that anyway with foundation, so it's your call. Just be sure you don't let it go longer than a week checking on them, so you don't end up with another mess.
It?s a beautiful sunny warm autumn morning here in Sydney today. Tomorrow Is forecast 4 days very heavy rain. Should I still put the box under today or better to wait till this forecast heavy rain passes?
If it's a nice day today, I say go for it! :smile: Bees can be a little cranky if rain is imminent, but 24 hours ahead is too far in the future to bother them. They'll probably just be busy and enjoying the sunshine. I'm off to bed now, but I can't wait to hear how it goes! :happy:
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Okay, thanks 15thmember.
Put a starter strip on frames. A piece foundation about inch and quarter or 32mm. Just enough to get over the wire and melted it in. Watched a video. Pizza cutter works brilliantly on foundation. So made the ten frames up and off I went.
When I lifted the lid I saw about a dozen hive beetles under the clear cover go scurrying down into the comb. A first for me. Probably never noticed them when I opened before.
They had already built comb again on the top of the frames under the clear clover. I was surprised given I had only cleared it off the day I posted the video.
I then had the joy of breaking the bond between the box and the base for the first time since I put them in. It was quite difficult but my years in building industry certainly helped. What didn?t help was the comb was fused to the mesh in the bottom and the box wouldn?t lift off the base even though I had run a tool all the way around and levered the box on all sides. It also weighed a tonne. I essentially had to put my foot on the base and lift and push with my foot to separate the box from the base. Only after I lifted it off I saw the comb I had torn off the mesh base and realised why it was so difficult.
So I put the empty box on the base and the full one on top. It sat up about half inch cause there was obviously comb below the frames. It eventually compressed and sat flush on the new box. I probably need to scrape the underside of the frames next time I lift off. It can?t be good pressing down on the lower frames. I then realised I have to lift this heavy thing off every week to inspect the bottom frames to make sure they are behaving. I was shocked how heavy it was.
I had honey in the tray this time. I think from tearing the comb off the mesh base. There was no way I could hold that box above my head and have a look at the underside but next week I might see if I can put in on a few blocks and film the underside. See what it looks like from the underside. And scrape the underside.
The hive beetles are worrying me even though the hive appears healthy. I feel I need to be doing something to keep them manageable. I will watch some videos and learn what I can tonight but I feel the urgency to get some hydrated lime in the tray to start with.
I?ve attached a pic of my new hive and I took a short video showing them at the entrance. The video was to show you what the workers are bringing home and how active they still are when suns out in Autumn. Will put the link up as soon as I upload it.
Next step is going to be placing the queen excluder when I have the queen confirmed in the bottom box. If all goes to plan. Is that correct?
Side note. When I was packing up after closing up the box. I picked up my gloves with my tools. And realised I had unconsciously taken off my gloves at some stage and was working with bare hands. Like the pros in the bee videos.
In the building industry I?m always losing my gloves cause you take them off when they hinder you. I?ve done exactly that whilst working on the bees without realising it. Never got stung.
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IMO it's best to let the bees handle the ventilation. Giving them too much makes more work for them and may even overwhelm them. If you do foundationless it's best to use some kind of guide. A wooden strip, a bevel, something that makes an edge down the middle of the bottom of the top bar.
https://bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
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The 4th frame indeed does look like the best chance without too much damage but I?m worried about slicing the queen with a wire when I do remaining frames.
Slowly... you don't want to kill any bees, that will set them off. The queen and her attendants will get out of the way. After you get the wire through on each end of the frame cover the top of the hive with a cloth or matt. If you are working on a frame straightening out comb keep the hive covered so it stays dark. Plan on moving all the frames. Leave the mess in the old box while you transfer the frames to a new box. Maintain order of the frames.
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So I put the empty box on the base and the full one on top. It sat up about half inch cause there was obviously comb below the frames. It eventually compressed and sat flush on the new box. I probably need to scrape the underside of the frames next time I lift off. It can?t be good pressing down on the lower frames. I then realised I have to lift this heavy thing off every week to inspect the bottom frames to make sure they are behaving. I was shocked how heavy it was.
Oh no where did this idea come from? You are making things harder. You don't need to lift the box over your head to see. Just tip it over on it's side before you loosen frames. The bees won't mind at all. Scrape the bottom clean. Never force frames on top of each other. That is when you can crush a queen and other bees.
Deeps that are full of honey are enormously heavy. I would have suggested a medium on top unless you are a strapping young boy. But not until you clean up the messed up comb. If you don't want to deal with it now then spring is the only other time I would suggest. Get rid of the clear sheet it does nothing for you or them.
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Thanks Acebird. Wish I knew that before I put it on top. I had no idea it was going to sit up. I had no idea the comb was below the frames.
I did hear a bit crunching of bees. I sure hope the queen wasn?t one of them. My brain just thought if it sits on the base, it will sit on another box ok. I wasn?t expecting it to crunch bees and sit up half an inch. As I pondered what to do, it settled onto the other box just from the shear weight by itself. I didn?t have to force or push.
Will do exactly as you said next week when I open it again. Will put it on its side, why didn?t I think of that? Not like the frames are going to fall out of the box. And scrape bottoms.
Ace bird I put this box on top of an empty box. The idea being they draw out new frames and the queen leaves this messy box and I trap her in the new box when she is laying. Then the messy box will become a honey super if she can?t get to it. Once brood all gone, let them fill it with honey. Then I can chop all cross comb out etc when plenty food around. I?m not going to try remove frames until I have queen in the lower box. I had a good look at frame 4 today. It?s a lot worse than it appears in the video. It?s badly crossed deep down. I really can?t do much until they move headquarters into the new box I put on today.
Here?s how they looked after I put the box under them today
https://youtube.com/shorts/5saAkELoj3Q?feature=share
I have no idea what to look for but I?m seeing pollen still coming in. Hopefully they will be able to draw out the new frames before winter.
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Slowly... you don't want to kill any bees, that will set them off. The queen and her attendants will get out of the way. After you get the wire through on each end of the frame cover the top of the hive with a cloth or matt. If you are working on a frame straightening out comb keep the hive covered so it stays dark. Plan on moving all the frames. Leave the mess in the old box while you transfer the frames to a new box. Maintain order of the frames.
Acebird
Had no idea going slow with a wire could work safely and effectively in such a messed up box until your last post. I will definitely keep that advice for when it comes time to separate that messed up box. Thank you for your advice. Much appreciated.
IMO it's best to let the bees handle the ventilation. Giving them too much makes more work for them and may even overwhelm them.
Can?t find the research paper but I definitely read a very good university research paper that came to same conclusion, it was very scientific and very well done. Easy to read. Aimed at beekeepers.
Thanks for your input Michael
Thanks to everyone who makes the time and effort to post. I am very grateful.
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Side note. When I was packing up after closing up the box. I picked up my gloves with my tools. And realised I had unconsciously taken off my gloves at some stage and was working with bare hands. Like the pros in the bee videos.
In the building industry I?m always losing my gloves cause you take them off when they hinder you. I?ve done exactly that whilst working on the bees without realising it. Never got stung.
Good for you! That is awesome! :happy: The best way to work bees is without gloves if you are comfortable doing so. I use nitrile gloves, since I get really bad sting reactions, but with the nitrile I can still feel the bees.
If you do foundationless it's best to use some kind of guide. A wooden strip, a bevel, something that makes an edge down the middle of the bottom of the top bar.
https://bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
I really should have mentioned this, good thing you went with the starter strips, Guitarman. :oops: When I build my frames, I nail in the wedges in sideways so there is a thin strip of wood hanging down to encourage them to start drawing there. I wasn't thinking about the fact that your frames probably aren't set up like that. Thanks, Michael. :embarassed:
Oh no where did this idea come from? You are making things harder. You don't need to lift the box over your head to see. Just tip it over on it's side before you loosen frames. The bees won't mind at all. Scrape the bottom clean. Never force frames on top of each other. That is when you can crush a queen and other bees.
Deeps that are full of honey are enormously heavy. I would have suggested a medium on top unless you are a strapping young boy. But not until you clean up the messed up comb. If you don't want to deal with it now then spring is the only other time I would suggest. Get rid of the clear sheet it does nothing for you or them.
Ace, we've been talking about him undersupering a box for like half a page.
Slowly... you don't want to kill any bees, that will set them off. The queen and her attendants will get out of the way. After you get the wire through on each end of the frame cover the top of the hive with a cloth or matt. If you are working on a frame straightening out comb keep the hive covered so it stays dark. Plan on moving all the frames. Leave the mess in the old box while you transfer the frames to a new box. Maintain order of the frames.
Acebird
Had no idea going slow with a wire could work safely and effectively in such a messed up box until your last post. I will definitely keep that advice for when it comes time to separate that messed up box. Thank you for your advice. Much appreciated.
Next step is going to be placing the queen excluder when I have the queen confirmed in the bottom box. If all goes to plan. Is that correct?
Next time you go in the hive, clean off any comb on the bottom of the frames in the top box, by tipping the box sideways, as Ace suggested. Also scrape off any comb that is attached to the mesh of the bottom board, if you haven't already. Remember, comb leads to comb. The fact that they redrew the comb on your inner cover is actually a good sign to me, since that means they are in a drawing mood, which is what we want. Basically, this undersupering thing is just buying you some time. Anytime you feel comfortable trying to cut out and separate the top box, I think you can do it, based on what Les said about your flows anyway. But that's a huge, messy, complicated, challenging, and long task to do when you aren't familiar with working with bees yet. Some people would be comfortable just diving into a task like that (I know Phillip/Ben Framed got his first bees by doing a cutout), but I know I personally wouldn't be comfortable with that. What I guess I'm trying to say is, there is no pressure (as long as I'm understanding your seasonal timing correctly) to do it now or not do it now. Hopefully managing their drawing in the bottom box will give you some reps at inspecting and moving comb around. If they get that bottom box drawn, and one day you see the queen laying eggs down there, then perfect, slap that queen excluder on there, give it another couple weeks for the brood in the top to hatch, and then you can remove the top box. Or, if you get tired of lifting that heavy top box, and you think you are ready to give the cut-out a go, then do it. It's entirely up to you.
When I lifted the lid I saw about a dozen hive beetles under the clear cover go scurrying down into the comb. A first for me. Probably never noticed them when I opened before.
The hive beetles are worrying me even though the hive appears healthy. I feel I need to be doing something to keep them manageable. I will watch some videos and learn what I can tonight but I feel the urgency to get some hydrated lime in the tray to start with.
There are lots of different ways to help control beetles. I don't have too much trouble with them where I live, as long as a hive is strong and healthy. I have some of those over-the-frame plastic beetle traps, which I use occasionally if I have a bad infestation. I also use generic Swiffer sheets (I assume you have Swiffer mops in Australia or something similar) as beetle traps, as their feet get tangled in the sheets and trap them. You do catch some bees sometimes too with those, but I feel if you are catching more beetles than bees, it's worth it. I just cut the sheets into quarters, and place one or two in between the corners of two boxes to secure them. I've never used lime before, so I can't really comment on it either way.
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In my area SHB can devastate even a 'healthy strong hive' in a short amount of time.
Phillip
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Ace bird I put this box on top of an empty box. The idea being they draw out new frames and the queen leaves this messy box and I trap her in the new box when she is laying.
https://youtube.com/shorts/5saAkELoj3Q?feature=share
Sure but it creates a ton of work which I oppose immensely. Put the new box on top and trap her in that box in the spring when she goes up into it, assuming a long dearth in the winter. Or put the empty box on the bottom board and shake all the bees into it after you have cut them all loose and fixed them. Don't get me wrong this is work too but you do it once.
If you make a screened bottom board the landing board goes under the box so you can easily put a stick in and get it out for adjusting the entrance size. You can go 3 inches under. It is the busiest part of the hive so they will keep it clean.
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Ace, we've been talking about him undersupering a box for like half a page.
I couldn't find the first entry. Regardless, I would never do it.
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Ace,
If you under super, the queen will move down into it as soon as the bees build comb. Bees naturally build down and they will have her lay the eggs in the bottom section and back fill the top comb with honey. Once the brood is in the bottom box he can start removing the top box and cut out the honey comb. If he puts the new box on top the queen will not move up because the bees will make it a honey super. Putting the box on top would probably work in NEW York after a good cold winter but not in Florida nor where Guitarman lives.
Jim Altmiller
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Hi everyone
I lifted off my box and inspected the under super. Not what I was hoping for.
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What did you find on the frames where the bees were congratulated?
Phillip
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First picture is the messed up box. A view from below. Doesn?t look as bad as from the top.
The second picture is showing how they are again taking the foundation off the frame in the under super. This end frame had a full sheet of the suspect foundation. The others just have a strip of quality foundation.
The third showing the under super. They have been building comb down onto the top of the frames.
Will attach a few more pics.
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Based on those pictures, it looks to me like they haven't even fully drawn out the original box, which means they likely won't start on the bottom one yet. I agree that from the bottom, that cross comb doesn't look nearly as bad, and that white wax is very newly drawn and would be easy to cut through. It's your call, but if I were you, I'd probably take a stab at separating the frames where there aren't many bees and the wax is new and white.
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I agree. Looks like they still have room. Maybe I should remove the under super over winter and try and cut out a few end frames. I definitely can?t separate the two frames that are full bees. The queen is in there I?m certain. But those end ones don?t look too bad from under. They look worse from up top.
Here?s a link to the video if it helps.
https://youtu.be/37e0AhFV-jY
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If there is not a good flow going on, they won't do much in the way of forward progress. If you wish for the bees to build up yet your flow is over, you will need to feed both pollen substitute as well as a nectar substitute. Location dictates timing for every aspect of the hive and our ability to be of aid to our bees. I know nothing of you location snd seasons, weather etc. You need a mentor, or at least good advice from a 'successful beekeeper', or 'successful beekeepers' 'in your area'.
I was hoping to see what the frames with the bees in abundance looked like. Is there eggs, larvae etc. What about honey and pollen? How many frames of each and how many bees covering these?
Here in my location the flow is booming and the hives are booming as a result. Wax is being drawn, the queens are laying, nectar as well as pollen is being collected abundantly and brood is thriving.
Phillip
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If there is not a good flow going on, they won't do much in the way of forward progress. If you wish for the bees to build up yet your flow is over, you will need to feed both pollen substitute as well as a nectar substitute. Location dictates timing for every aspect of the hive and our ability to be of aid to our bees. I know nothing of you location snd seasons, weather etc. You need a mentor, or at least good advice from a 'successful beekeeper', or 'successful beekeepers' 'in your area'.
I was hoping to see what the frames with the bees in abundance looked like. Is there eggs, larvae etc. What about honey and pollen? How many frames of each and how many bees covering these?
Here in my location the flow is booming and the hives are booming as a result. Wax is being drawn, the queens are laying, nectar as well as pollen is being collected abundantly and brood is thriving.
Phillip
This is really the cornerstone of the whole issue. As I said, that white wax is new, but without knowing how much longer they are likely to be drawing, it's difficult to say how long it would take them to either draw out the top box and start on the bottom one, or how long it would take them to fix the comb if you decide to cut it out and straighten it. If a strong nectar flow is expected, it will could only take them a couple of weeks to draw those boxes out, but if no flow is expected, they won't draw at all. As Phillip says, if you could get some local advice on how much longer a flow is expected, and if you are likely to have nectar coming in all winter, it would be very helpful.
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Based on those pictures, it looks to me like they haven't even fully drawn out the original box, which means they likely won't start on the bottom one yet. I agree that from the bottom, that cross comb doesn't look nearly as bad, and that white wax is very newly drawn and would be easy to cut through. It's your call, but if I were you, I'd probably take a stab at separating the frames where there aren't many bees and the wax is new and white.
Precisely. Being a new beekeeper I think he has no idea what a full box of bees looks like. He is intimidated by 10,000 bees in a hive because he hasn't experienced 80,000 bees in a hive. Get that empty box out from under that hive and let the bees build up and fill the first box. Add boxes on top as you need them. It is not required that you fix the cross comb now but don't let it get any worse.
I just saw the video. When you tip the box over on its side tip it so the frames are vertical not horizontal. Tip it over on the inverted cover so when you shave the bottom the bees will fall on the cover. If the queen was on the bottom (not likely but can happen) you won't lose her.
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Thanks Acebird. I was thinking exactly that. I noticed the frames being crushed and honey pouring out and thought next time put the box on it?s side so frames vertical and they are then supported by the timber, not the honeycomb. Good observation Ace.
I opened them today for there weekly inspection. They went absolutely crazy. My placid hive wanted to kill me today. They were everywhere attacking me. Yes I had smoke. They have never been like this. Have no idea why. Got stung on the chin through the mesh and one managed to get through my new proper bee gloves. There were lots of stingers left in my leather gloves. They were absolutely nuts and the smoke wasn?t settling them.
I made the decision to not do any separation of frames today and put the top box back onto the under super ASAP. The bees were not cooperating.
The under super had a large cluster of bees that were very unhappy with me lifting the top box off. Last week the under super was barren. This week it looked like they had moved in, but no comb on the frame with cluster of bees. I didn?t check any others. They were far too aggressive. But it looked like no comb being built but a lot of bees congregating on the new frames
I?m thankful I was wearing my new bee suit and gloves for the first time. But I wonder if it had a smell or something they didn?t like. They were so aggressive I was taken by surprise. Could it be the weather was overcast and it had been raining earlier in the day.
I think I?m on top SHB. I haven?t seen one in a week now. I check daily just by lifting the lid and squishing any hiding on top of the frames in the gap between clear cover. The clear cover has been great for that. First few days I squished about 20 and haven?t seen one since.
If my one box scared me today. I hate to imagine an 80 000 strong bee hive being angry.
Thanks for your input guys. My confidence is growing and I bought lemongrass oil today. I need to build some nuc boxes over winter and be prepared if they swarm given I can?t separate the frames. Regardless I should have a nuc box on standby.
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Thanks Acebird. I was thinking exactly that. I noticed the frames being crushed and honey pouring out and thought next time put the box on it?s side so frames vertical and they are then supported by the timber, not the honeycomb. Good observation Ace.
I opened them today for there weekly inspection. They went absolutely crazy. My placid hive wanted to kill me today. They were everywhere attacking me. Yes I had smoke. They have never been like this. Have no idea why. Got stung on the chin through the mesh and one managed to get through my new proper bee gloves. There were lots of stingers left in my leather gloves. They were absolutely nuts and the smoke wasn?t settling them.
I made the decision to not do any separation of frames today and put the top box back onto the under super ASAP. The bees were not cooperating.
The under super had a large cluster of bees that were very unhappy with me lifting the top box off. Last week the under super was barren. This week it looked like they had moved in, but no comb on the frame with cluster of bees. I didn?t check any others. They were far too aggressive. But it looked like no comb being built but a lot of bees congregating on the new frames
I?m thankful I was wearing my new bee suit and gloves for the first time. But I wonder if it had a smell or something they didn?t like. They were so aggressive I was taken by surprise. Could it be the weather was overcast and it had been raining earlier in the day.
I think I?m on top SHB. I haven?t seen one in a week now. I check daily just by lifting the lid and squishing any hiding on top of the frames in the gap between clear cover. The clear cover has been great for that. First few days I squished about 20 and haven?t seen one since.
If my one box scared me today. I hate to imagine an 80 000 strong bee hive being angry.
Thanks for your input guys. My confidence is growing and I bought lemongrass oil today. I need to build some nuc boxes over winter and be prepared if they swarm given I can?t separate the frames. Regardless I should have a nuc box on standby.
Sorry to hear that, Guitarman. I've got a big mean hive right now, and it's not fun. It's quite unnerving the first time you have to deal with bees who aren't cooperating, but it's going to happen sometimes. The new suit could be a part of it. When I got a new suit last year, even my nicest bees were a little suspicious about me for a week or two, just until the suit started to smell like smoke and propoplis and honey and me. You also mentioned that you were using your new gloves. Are those gloves thick, and is it difficult to feel the bees? If you are accidentally crushing more bees, they will be more irritated, since crushed bees released alarm pheromone that alerts the other bees to danger. The other thing I noticed that you mentioned is there were bees just sitting clustered in the bottom box. Those bees are probably foragers that aren't out working for some reason. You mentioned the weather was a bit rainy, so it could just be that, or it could be that your flow is shutting down, and there aren't any more forage flowers blooming at the moment. When those idle foragers are sitting at home with nothing to do, they are bored and irritable, and can be easily triggered by guard bees who are bothered by an intruder. Busy bees are happy bees.
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Thanks for that 15th.
Makes perfect sense that the bees clustering were forager bees hanging around with nothing to do. When the sun comes out, flowers I?m guessing open up and the bees go to work. When it?s overcast the hive is always much less active I?ve noticed. So that would explain why they were there and maybe why they were so angry at me. Also why I see a lot of videos saying best time to open is when they are busy in the middle of the day. You probably don?t want a lot of forager bees in the hive when you crack it open.
The gloves are probably goat skin leather. Not great for feeling. I would normally take them off if the bees are placid and work without them. I don?t think I crushed any opening them up. They had a target drawn on me as soon as I lifted the top box off. Before I could place it on the lid, they were buzzing me.
I notice the varroa mite outbreak has moved closer to Sydney and is now affecting the northern suburbs. If it moves another 30kms south this hive will no longer be a problem. It will be destroyed. Will have to hang my new suit and tools up for a few years before i can have bees again. And I was just starting to enjoy the challenge of beekeeping. Really hoping they can contain and get on top of the outbreak.
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I notice the varroa mite outbreak has moved closer to Sydney and is now affecting the northern suburbs. If it moves another 30kms south this hive will no longer be a problem. It will be destroyed. Will have to hang my new suit and tools up for a few years before i can have bees again. And I was just starting to enjoy the challenge of beekeeping. Really hoping they can contain and get on top of the outbreak.
Oh, that's awful. I hope that doesn't happen, Guitarman. :sad:
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I?m finding lots of dead bees since the weather got cold. What I call lots is 5 or 6 every day on the ground walking around too weak to make it home. Whenever I look there is weak or dead bees around the hive. I didn?t worry thinking it?s a winter thing.
But today I noticed a small cluster of bees on the concrete slab. And quite a few weak ones. Maybe 15 or so weak ones all over the place and the cluster. I?m starting to think something is wrong. I know nothing of robber bees but I know it can be a problem and I have no idea if that?s what?s going on or this is usual winter behaviour. Something in my gut don?t feel right.
I will try to upload pics but I?m having a few problems resizing them. When look at the pics there?s bees everywhere on the ground. Not normal to me. Any advice appreciated. Thanks.
I took the lid off and there wasn?t any hive beetle at all hiding on top of the frames between clear plastic cover as in the past. I think I have successfully squashed them all. Haven?t seen one in over a month.
I haven?t been into the hive after they went crazy last time. Been a bit hesitant. Am planning on going in for a look as soon as I know what I need to be looking for. Been over a month.
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A queen in the middle of a buildup is laying 3,000 eggs a day. That means six weeks later the bees are dying at a rate of 3,000 a day.
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Have you checked for mites, (Varroa Destructor) ?
Phillip
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I?m finding lots of dead bees since the weather got cold. What I call lots is 5 or 6 every day on the ground walking around too weak to make it home. Whenever I look there is weak or dead bees around the hive. I didn?t worry thinking it?s a winter thing.
But today I noticed a small cluster of bees on the concrete slab. And quite a few weak ones. Maybe 15 or so weak ones all over the place and the cluster. I?m starting to think something is wrong. I know nothing of robber bees but I know it can be a problem and I have no idea if that?s what?s going on or this is usual winter behaviour. Something in my gut don?t feel right.
I will try to upload pics but I?m having a few problems resizing them. When look at the pics there?s bees everywhere on the ground. Not normal to me. Any advice appreciated. Thanks.
I took the lid off and there wasn?t any hive beetle at all hiding on top of the frames between clear plastic cover as in the past. I think I have successfully squashed them all. Haven?t seen one in over a month.
I haven?t been into the hive after they went crazy last time. Been a bit hesitant. Am planning on going in for a look as soon as I know what I need to be looking for. Been over a month.
Based on your descriptions and pictures, I don't think there is much cause for concern here. My first winter, I was surprised how many dead bees showed up outside the landing board after my first few days of cold weather, just because the undertaker bees are no longer taking the dead bees away from the hive before depositing them. Also keep in mind that bees have trouble flying in cool temperatures, which may be why you are seeing bees walking around outside the hive. What are your temperatures like right now?
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A queen in the middle of a buildup is laying 3,000 eggs a day. That means six weeks later the bees are dying at a rate of 3,000 a day.
"3000 eggs" I wonder....has anybody ever counted?
I have heard 1500, even 2000.
At times beekeepers sound like Fishers... :tongue:
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Some queens are better than others at laying eggs. A 3000 egg a day is a very good queen. If you count the cells vertically and horizontally, you can quickly calculate the numbers of eggs pretty quickly. Graduates working on their masters are usually the ones doing the counting.
Jim Altmiller
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Some queens are better than others at laying eggs. A 3000 egg a day is a very good queen. If you count the cells vertically and horizontally, you can quickly calculate the numbers of eggs pretty quickly. Graduates working on their masters are usually the ones doing the counting.
Jim Altmiller
Are you sure they can count?
National test scores plunge, with still no sign of pandemic recovery
?National test scores plummeted for 13-year-olds, according to new data that shows the single largest drop in math in 50 years and no signs of academic recovery following the disruptions of the pandemic,? Donna St. George reports.
?Student scores plunged nine points in math and four points in reading on the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP), often regarded as the nation?s report card. The release Wednesday reflected testing in fall 2022, comparing it to the same period in 2019, before the pandemic began.?
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>"3000 eggs" I wonder....has anybody ever counted?
Jan Dzierzon did. He wrote the second most important book about bees ever written. http://reader.library.cornell.edu/docviewer/digital?id=hivebees5017629#page/5/mode/1up
https://safe.menlosecurity.com/doc/docview/viewer/docNC785793EF833b248568aeef22181f287ec6e03a01427b76e14b4d0141bd406dbff731358ede9
Pg 18
"As the queen is capable of adapting the sex of the eggs to the cells so she is also able to adapt the number of eggs to the requirements of the stock, and to circumstances in general. When a colony is weak and the weather is cool and unfavourable she only lays a few hundred eggs daily; but in populous colonies and when pasture is plentiful, she deposits thousands. Under favourable circumstances a fertile queen lays as many as 3,000 eggs a-day; of which any one may convince himself by simply putting a swarm into a hive with empty combs, or inserting empty combs in the brood-nest of a stock, and counting the eggs in the cells some days after."--Jan Dzierzon, Rational Bee-keeping
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Dzierzon's book was written and published in German as Rationelle Bienenzucht and later translated into English and other languages. He is the man who figured out parthenogenesis. He also came up with a movable frame hive years before L.L. Langstroth. Like Huber, he was a meticulous scientist.
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Dzierzon's - looks like a book worth reading.
Now he says -in 1882 - that a queen can lay 3000 eggs a day.
Do we have any information about todays queens?
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>Do we have any information about todays queens?
Certainly, at least here in the US, queen quality has falling a lot...
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Any idea what the number of eggs would be - today?
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My queens still last 3 years typically. I don't expect any change. I've heard some of the bee scientists estimate that a typical queen today gets superceded 3 times a year. That would be 9 times as often as was typical through most of the time anyone was keeping records. But how does that translate to eggs per day? I don't know.
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Most of my queens have now Jo Horner genetics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPW1tmBjoQ0
I would like to get some more but due to varroa in NSW I can't bring more into Qld.
I have never counted and have no idea how many eggs my queens push out....but I do know ( as I marked them) that they last more than one season. I also know that there is daylight between a good queen and an exceptional queen.
Qld Queens are very expensive now - around $AUS 50 plus post, this is double from a couple of years ago - and I may produce a few extras, mostly for my use and fun.
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Max, interesting; let us know how the queen rearing goes..
Phillip
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Hi everyone.
Just an update on my problem I?m having with my hive.
the last problem I think I posted about my bees dying as with the weather was getting cold. I took the under super out and that seem to have fixed the problem. I didn?t see you any more clusters of bees dying the next day. I just think it was getting too cold for them and the box had too much empty space in it with the under Super.
When the weather started warming up. I?ve put the under super back in. That was about seven or eight weeks ago. I checked the under super about 3 weeks after I put it in. They had just started to build a little bit of combs arm on the tops of the frames. So I left it for about another five weeks and checked them again last week. The Under super was fully built out. The frames I checked were full brood at all different stages. Some capped. And it was totally full of bees absolutely full. Every frame had been fully built from what I saw.
I tried to spot the queen on each frame I removed. I got to frame 5 and abandoned the task. The bees had become so hostile and I had been stung so many times through my suit. I took a sting to the tip of my nose when my veil must?ve been touching my nose. My wrists copped about eight or 10 things in each wrist. I think even though I?m wearing proper bee gloves that are leather with a like a canvas heavy material that goes up to your elbow. I should say they were still able to sting me around the wrist numerous times. I also had to stop because they were just psychotic. I?ve never seen so many bees swarming around me and trying to attack me. I had so many bees on my suit on my gloves on my face I was trying to smoke them off my off me but I was choking breathing in. I want to ask the question. Is it because I?m splitting the hive taking the top box off to access the Under super that is making them so angry. In the past with only one box and I took the lid off they were quite placid they didn?t seem to be any problem at all. But when I split the box and put one box on the ground and access that second box they go absolutely crazy. I think every bee leaves and has a go at me. I gave up, put hive together and got out of there.
I couldn?t enter my home through the back door because when I got to the back door there were hundreds of bees still attacking me. I also couldn?t get them off me. So I ran round to the front door where I managed to get rid of most of them. There were a couple which I managed to shake off and get into the house. When I went round to the back door to observe through the screen door they were smashing into the screen door trying to get to me. I was very concerned about my neighbours getting stung because they were happy to attack my screen door in huge numbers. I could see them easily going over the fence and attacking my neighbours as well.
The next day about 24 hours later I went to go hop on my motorbike. Not thinking I exited the back door and started heading to the garage. I was immediately attacked by a few bees and got stung a few times on my wrist again. This time my wrist inflamed so much I had to go to the doctor because it had blown up which It didn?t do The previous day.
I?m wondering if it?s the actual bees that are a bad bunch of bees. I don?t have any other hives to compare them to. I watched a few YouTube videos of people who have euthanised their hives and whilst the hives were very aggressive my hive wasn?t far from that sort of aggression that I was witnessing on YouTube. being a new beekeeper and not having any other hives to compare it to I?m not sure that these are dangerous type bees.
48 hours later when I exited my back door they still came at me not as many as the day before but I still had a couple come at me enough to make me run back inside and decide to exit the house by the front door. I am now quite scared to separate the box again. I really wanted to put the queen excluder in and try and trap the queen that bottom box so I can repair that top box but from what I?m seeing I don?t know if these bees are worth the headache. I would really appreciate your thoughts.
Given how quickly they drew the comb on those 10 frames in about four weeks from foundationless frames, I?m thinking that maybe I should not split these boxes any more and just put a super on top with an excluder and let them fill that with Honey. Then I might try and destroy that badly fused box pull it apart and if I kill the Queen or whatever happens bad luck. It would be nice to get some honey off these bees. They are extremely active at this time of year.
Or should I just split The hive and put the excluder in and take a 5050 chance that the Queen will be either in the bottom box or the top box. If I?m lucky enough to trap her in the bottom box then it?s an easy task I think once they fill the top one with Honey. To repair it. What would happen if I trap the queen in the top box. Would that cause a problem.
Thank you really appreciate your help guys. Philip
PS if I didn?t have a suit on they would?ve killed me.
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Sounds like you have a hive with a bit of attitude. I?d be requeening them as soon as you can. As you live in town, your neighbours could end up suffering as a consequence. An unfriendly bunch of bees takes the fun out of the pastime.
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https://bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm
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I would requeen.
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I have no bees yet and am not an expert but I have been reading and have read more than once, that the queen is the problem and that requeening should solve the problem. A couple of beeks above me have suggested requeening as well so I think I'm on the right track. It sounds like you have not heard about this yet.
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The first thing I would do is get rid of the leather gloves. Get some nitrate gloves. Wear 2 of them. Sounds like you were in the hive for a while before they turned aggressive. With leather gloves you cannot feel bees being crushed and they sting it. Other bees react to the sting pheromones and sting the gloves. Now you have a large amount of sting pheromones in the hive every time you put your hands in the hive. Next time you use them they will bee the same.
I?m assuming you are using the 10 minute/30 second smoke rule that we use at BeeFest.
Jim Altmiller
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I concur with everyone else, this hive should be requeened. This will change the genetics of the workers so that as the older mean bees die off, they are replaced with nice bees from the new queen. Michael's instructions are what I would follow if I were you, provided you have the equipment necessary.
I also agree with Jim that those thick leather gloves tend to make bees irritated, and I usually wear two pairs of nitrile gloves instead. I hardly ever use my leather gloves, and never when I'm doing an inspection, regardless of how angry the colony is. Also be careful when you are removing and replacing the upper box that you aren't crushing a ton of bees underneath it when you set it down.
Also be sure to wash your suit before going into them again, as the suit is now full of stingers and smells like alarm pheromone.
Jim's smoking technique is very effective. Smoke the hive entrance and/or under the screened bottom board heavily, wait 10 minutes, smoke them again, wait 30 seconds, and then open the lid.
Don't worry about localized swelling around a sting site, even if that swelling is severe. This is not a sign of an allergic reaction, and especially with multiple stings, it's completely normal. I have been keeping bees for 5 years, and I swell up like crazy almost every time I get stung. Provided you aren't allergic, which most people aren't, you'd have to be stung over 1000 times to be dosed with enough venom to kill you. I know it's unpleasant, but even if you get stung a bunch of times, you should be okay.
Whatever manipulations you need to do to requeen them, try to be deliberate and intentional about all your movements. Don't flail, swat, or move haphazardly or aggressively. Don't be slow, but be purposeful and careful to try and keep them as calm as possible. Keep us posted, and hopefully it all goes well.
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Personally I can't stand the nitrile gloves. I buy what sells around here as doeskin or buckskin or roping gloves. The thinnest seem to be goatskin. This is the time of year they are testy because there is nothing blooming (here in Nebraska). If you leave any hive open very long robbing will start and that will cause issues ranging from them being angry to a full on frenzy. If they are still attacking you later with no provocation and you're not in the hive, I would requeen. Depending on the circumstances, I might wait to spring to do so (availability of queen, current weather etc.) but I would plan to requeen.
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Thanks for all the replies. You guys are so helpful. This is the second time I’ve tried to post. For some reason my post don’t post or they don’t get saved in the drafts. I’ve been writing a Reply for the last two days and every time I seem to lose it before I can post it. I need to go to work now so I’ll abandon my lengthy reply and try again tomorrow.
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Sorry to hear that, Guitarman, that can be frustrating. Something I have done if I have a very long post and I'm worried the posting page will time out on me, is I'll type out my post on a Word file and then copy and paste it.