Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: BeeMaster2 on December 05, 2017, 05:34:23 pm
-
Spent the day inspecting my hives that I had on my trailer. Yesterday I came by this site to pick up a small hive for doing a Trapout on top of a chimney. As soon as
I arrived I noticed that only the smallest hive had any activity. When I opened that hive at the Trapout site there was only a baseball size ball of bees.
I returned today to verify my suspicions. I inspected 7 of them. One has nothing but house bees, 2 boxes of honey, some capped brood, a few wet larvae and a little bit of eggs. No Q found.
The rest have some honey with some very small SHB larvae, lots of pollen, a little bit of wax moth larvae. The bottoms under of most of the hives were very clean, surprisingly so considering these hives have been strapped down on this trailer for at least 2 months. Some have a few dead day old hatched bees.
I'm am writing this while waiting for the bee inspector to arrive.
😥
Jim
-
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
-
that is scary
-
Oh Man,,,,,,,,, Jim, I am so sorry. How can this happen to such an experience Beek. I realize if this can happen to you, then, I am worried,,,,,, I am worried about the rest of us.
Keep us informed. Man o Man, the entire trailer of seven hives. I hate hearing the loss of hives, just hate it. May the rest of your hives go through winter and enter Spring, just a buzzing.
Blessings
-
Eleven hives, Not seven, auto correct can be a pain.
-
Try to get your inspector to take a sample of bees from the remaining hive to send off. Commercial beekeeper near me said he had a few confirmed cases of tracheal mites in the last month or two. Symptoms were just what you describe.
-
tracheal mites: I would expect lethargic (tired, no energy) crawling bees and dead bees on bottom of the hive. I am by no means a disease expert of honey bees.
-
This is a puzzle. Wow sorry to hear this .
-
The bee inspector, Rob, said that he thought it was a virus of some kind due to a mite overload. There was no sign of mites under any of the hives. He said that he had the same thing happen to him last year. He had about 14 hives on a trailer and every couple of days he lost 3 or 4 hives until they were all dead. He also did not treat. I had him do an alcohol wash on the one hive that had some bees in the brood area. We counted 14 mites out of about 100 bee sample. That is 14%, pretty high. Rob now pushes treating bees.
Jim
-
This is very sad :(
I suppose that you did not treat them?
I had this experience 3 years ago. A hive crashed situation without having a
method of removing the mites back then. It was during an early Spring build up.
For the tf hives, I have a method of removing the mites (IPM) and allow the big fat winter
bees to build up. Without using any chemical treatment I have to manually removed the
cap brood frames after the hives are in their winter brood nest configuration. This is the only way that the hive can survive without having too many bee diseases affecting them.
A reduced brood nest size is the best time to remove the mites from my 3 seasons of running small test. Without removing the cap broods even when they can survive through this winter, the early Spring build up will kill a hive. Some will give an early Spring treatment but since I don't treat, I like to take out the mites so that early Spring build up will not be affected. The mites can spread their nasty disease to kill off the winter bees if not clean up before or during the winter time on good weather. The small nuc hive with the heater on have zero mite now because I had removed them all back in September. My next option is to source the tf queens from tf apiary to find more resistant bees. Because your bee environment is similar to mine, repeating this method of IPM should not be a big issue. The only issue is having enough time to remove the mites before they crash your hives. In a tracheal mite infection not all bees are dead. They look like a normal bee but they cannot fly! The bees that are still alive will not die inside the hive. Many will crawl outside to die on the ground. They don't want to further spread this disease inside. So would rather die outside instead. That is how honey bees do it.
-
I am trying not use any kind of chemical in my hives. I saw an ad that touts ultra sound to kill mites. There is a lot of work going on that claims to be able to use frequency, wave shape and intensity to selectively kill pest. I have been approached by an engineer/inventor to experiment to control SHB. All this is new to me anyone else heard of this
-
I saw on the evening news that using the ultra sound to control the dog's barking will also
have a negative effect on the teenagers. Somehow teenager's brains are more likely to be
affected by using these devices. So evaluate before using them if there are teenagers around you or your
neighbor's house. The owner has to take down this device after the neighbor complaint. Not sure how the dog responded after
removing the device. Affecting the human brain is not good!
-
I am trying not use any kind of chemical in my hives. I saw an ad that touts ultra sound to kill mites. There is a lot of work going on that claims to be able to use frequency, wave shape and intensity to selectively kill pest. I have been approached by an engineer/inventor to experiment to control SHB. All this is new to me anyone else heard of this
It is very difficult to kill a bug on a bug without killing both bugs. What ever we do will affect both insects to some degree.
I wonder is the ultra sound can be set so that only the smaller bug is affected. Sounds possible.
Jim
-
My friend says that he takes the "bug" and tries different freq. and wave shapes in his laboratory so that only that general size and characteristics of target are effected. He also said he needed some bees so he could stay from harmful exposure to the bees.
-
We have a gentleman in our bee club who bought one of these sound frequency devices out of Europe when it was still fairly new. He is very satisfied with it, but is still testing its performance in different conditions.
-
Oh wow, sorry for your luck Jim. Any chance the move had anything to do with it? Funny that you wouldn't see evidence of a virus in any hives. How long have they been sitting is this location?
-
Same questions I had , and did it get cold up ther last week when it rained? It did in Central Florida
-
Oh wow, sorry for your luck Jim. Any chance the move had anything to do with it? Funny that you wouldn't see evidence of a virus in any hives. How long have they been sitting is this location?
Thanks Brian.
I do not think the move had anything to do with it. They were at this site for over 2 months. I saw them about 2 weeks ago and they had normal entrance activity. A month ago they were all very strong hives.
Jim
-
Same questions I had , and did it get cold up ther last week when it rained? It did in Central Florida
It wasn't cold enough to affect these hives. My observation hive, with 2 frames of bees is doing just fine. I have 2 frames in town that I need to check on.
Jim
-
{Funny that you wouldn't see evidence of a virus in any hives.}
Ace: I had 18 hives last August, 2 of the 18 hives displayed deformed Wing virus. One month later, last September, same 2 hives absconded. Not much left behind but a little bit of honey, mites and pollen.
Now I cannot say why the bees absconded. But I can say the only 2 hives displaying DWV took off. A connection, I?ll never know for sure.
Blessings
-
Jim - that's a bummer - really sorry to hear your news. Have you enough colonies to recover from this set-back next season ?
LJ
-
Jim - that's a bummer - really sorry to hear your news. Have you enough colonies to recover from this set-back next season ?
LJ
Thanks LJ.
I have one Flow Hive and one regular hive at my house in Jacksonville and a 2 frame observation hive. I was cleaning up the hives and one of them had a bunch of bees fly when I opened it. My thinks she saw a marked, white, queen take off with them. They swarmed in a tall bush and I put a Nuc with some honey frames in in it. I have another hive that has some bees but it started to rain so I have not inspected it. Keeping my fingers crossed.
I will talking to a friend about using his bees to do splits for the Beefest 2018.
Jim
-
Van, i think that your situation tells the tale - same that happened to me two years back and described in a paper later that year: mite load leads to virus load leads to the point where sick bees leave the hive to die (as opposed to really absconding - unless they abscond to try to find a healthier site, but no one ever seems to see the abscond flight).
-
Chin up Jim. You still have the equipment. Nature will provide the bees is some of your friends don't come through at the beefest. FL regs makes it tough to bring in hives.
-
Very sad news Jim,
Wish I knew enough about these critters to offer info but I'm still learning. I can offer some bees though, of my three hives two are pretty full and I'm sure will swarm in the spring if I don't split them. If you don't mind giving me a hand (and advice) they're yours. They appear to be healthy to me and I don't use chemicals either.
Let me know if I can help, best wishes.
-
Sorry for your loss. That is heartbreaking.
-
bobism
That is a very nice offer. I am proud of you.
Jim
How long had you kept the hives going before the crash? I am sorry to hear about it. It is not spring and so for all I know now, I might be right behind you. Your friend now treats, What are your plans for the future? I wish the best for you and hope you give some follow up on what the state inspector comes up with as to cause with you.
Good luck
gww
-
Very sad news Jim,
Wish I knew enough about these critters to offer info but I'm still learning. I can offer some bees though, of my three hives two are pretty full and I'm sure will swarm in the spring if I don't split them. If you don't mind giving me a hand (and advice) they're yours. They appear to be healthy to me and I don't use chemicals either.
Let me know if I can help, best wishes.
Thanks Bob. Let me know when you want to split them. I will be there. You have the type of bees that I try to get.
I really appreciate your help.
Jim
-
Thanks Bob. Let me know when you want to split them. I will be there. You have the type of bees that I try to get.
I really appreciate your help.
Jim
This is where a forum outweighs a local club. Thank you Beemaster. Sounds like help is on the way Jim.
-
I would let the split hive get a mated queen first before moving it to the new location.
Because fighting the mites will need the local drones with the resistance genes also. If you move the split hive
into a treated location before the queen is mated then it will diminish the mite fighting ability of this hive. On my II
process I try to get both hives with the resistance genes--the drones and queen producing hives.
-
Beepro,
Good point. Depends on when we make the split. Commercial beeks are all around me from about April to June. The are all commercial queens with a very short lifespan. There are very few hives around the rest of the year but as my observation hive just proved on October 13, saw mating sign, that we have drones in this area. The Arlington area has lots of feral hives so if possibly I would like to leave the splits for mating.
Jim
-
Jim,
Sorry to hear the bad news.
It would be interesting to know if anyother local beeks are experiencing the same thing.
Question I'm wondering if bees with mites-viruses were pushed around and drifted after the hurricane ?
-
Jim,
Sorry to hear the bad news.
It would be interesting to know if anyother local beeks are experiencing the same thing.
Question I'm wondering if bees with mites-viruses were pushed around and drifted after the hurricane ?
Thanks.
Not sure about that but per Rob, one hive crashes and the other hives rob it out, taking the diseased mites home with them.
Jim
-
Jim
Not counting queen changes, what was your longest living hive. On any dead outs before this big problim did you notice any trends, like build up became slower or crawling bees in the second or third year. I am doing as you and not treating and am just curious on your experiance so far. I had thought you had been at it for around 8 or so years and would just be interested in what you noticed. I would not feel too bad as from all the oldtimer books I have read all the famous beekeepers had big losess and were considered really good cause of thier ability to build back pretty quickly.
I am only in my second year and so far so good but I don't have stories to tell and you do. Just curious on your thoughts.
Cheers
gww
-
gww
I can't answer for Jim, but I have one hive that has bees in it since I started five years ago. Had 2 but the one swarmed this year and I didn't catch the fact the new queen didn't make it back until the hive dwindled to nothing. I have three others that were splits my second year(4 yrs. old). I also have probably a dozen that are three years old. The rest are 2 years or less. All treatment free. I've had my share of losses, most can be attributed to beekeeper error. Either not catching a problem soon enough or not leaving enough feed for winter. Some were just bees being bees. I haven't noticed any thing like what happened to Jim.
p.s. Jim. Sorry about your loss. I wish I was closer to offer more help than that.
-
Cao
Thanks, that is what I am looking for. I am at two years and am now at nine though two did not build up very good and I made them all a little lighter weight wise this year in the hopes of finding that spot where I don't starve them and yet they don't swarm way early (which is why I have nine hives). Time will tell. Everybody on forums keep saying they will die first fall, then spring build up, then in the second year and then in the third. I don't know myself but am sure I am about to find out. It really doesn't matter cause what will happen will happen and it is winter time and so time to play with ideals.
I have tried to kill them with my moving of queen cells and causing of robbing and breaking of brood comb but so far they refuse to die. I do know that can change. It is nice to hear about others experiances. Even the bad ones and not cause I like bad to happen to people but more to never forget what is possible. I too would try and help in some way if closer. I put myself in jims position in my mind and know it would be a hard thing for me and so feel bad that it happened to him. I would still learn as much as I could from it.
Thank you for your responce and sharing your experiance.
gww
-
Jim
Not counting queen changes, what was your longest living hive. On any dead outs before this big problim did you notice any trends, like build up became slower or crawling bees in the second or third year. I am doing as you and not treating and am just curious on your experiance so far. I had thought you had been at it for around 8 or so years and would just be interested in what you noticed. I would not feel too bad as from all the oldtimer books I have read all the famous beekeepers had big losess and were considered really good cause of thier ability to build back pretty quickly.
I am only in my second year and so far so good but I don't have stories to tell and you do. Just curious on your thoughts.
Cheers
gww
I did have a really have bad year. Only made around 6 gallons of honey this year. Gallberry was poor, I heard from the commercial beeks that they had the same problem. Them when we took them back to Jacksonxille it wasn't any better and it should have been. Hives were strong all year. Right up to a few weeks before they crashed.
Jim
-
Beepro,
Good point. Depends on when we make the split. Commercial beeks are all around me from about April to June. The are all commercial queens with a very short lifespan. There are very few hives around the rest of the year but as my observation hive just proved on October 13, saw mating sign, that we have drones in this area. The Arlington area has lots of feral hives so if possibly I would like to leave the splits for mating.
Jim
Jim, I just went out to look at my notes from last spring. I started with one strong colony and split it twice, March 17 and May 25. Both splits were successful. The same colony swarmed on April 17 and July 26. I was out of town for two months and when I returned in October it seemed to me they had swarmed again.
I had a lot of problems with drift and had to shake more bees into the new splits for weeks even with laying branches over the entrances so they would re orientate.
The latter of the two splits seems like it's doing well but they never really filled out the box last year (only about five bars of brood) and I had to rob honey from another to give them last month. I'm hoping they build up fast this spring and if they do it will be three hives to split and likely two splits from each. Maybe more but they're so sneaky about swarming.
When I started keeping bees I picked up a local nuc and a package. The package bees died off but the nuc bees have done well for three years now.
Maybe we can talk about things I could do in early spring to get them build numbers early? You did mention something along those lines the last time we talked but I forgot.
-
Yes, this year I fed all of my hives when it warmed up with no food coming in. I put just 2 small 1/16" holes in each lid. It made a big difference.
Jim
-
Bobsim - you don't say where your queens are coming from - so - if it'll help: when making increase by 'walk-away' splits, it's important to ensure that the splits are large enough to have the necessary size of workforce to raise a reasonable quality queen. You can also reduce their workload by feeding, and by supplying pre-drawn comb.
One good method of ensuring you have an adequate number of bees in the box is to fill it with nurse bees, which are far less likely to abscond then foragers as they've not yet ventured outside of their home, and so have no bearings with which to 'return home'.
A good method of selecting nurse bees is described by Larry Connor in several of his online .pdf articles. The links for these collections are:
http://www.wicwas.com/American_Bee_Journal
http://www.wicwas.com/Bee_Culture
Perhaps the quickest introduction to this technique can be found in BC2012-07.pdf which he's entitled as: 'Making Doolittle's Nucs'.
Essentially, the method involves removing a couple of brood frames from your target 'donor hive', shaking the bees off, then placing those frames in a nuc box placed above the donor hive with a QX between them. After a short period, the brood frames will be covered by nurse bees which have ascended up through the excluder. At this point the nuc box can be removed and placed in it's new location, with the assurance that the vast majority (if not all) of those bees will then stay put.
LJ
-
Seems like sound advice LJ and my apologies for not responding, I was distracted.
Last year the two splits re queened themselves. When the Hive I had with package bees was failing I did try to re queen with a queen purchased from a local apiary but it didn't work. At first she flew away then returned and went into the hive, that was the last I saw of her and the colony steadily diminished.
I have a small yard and am limited to three hives, all are top bars. I read somewhere that putting an obstruction at the entrance of a new split would encourage the split bees to re-orientate and I did see that effect working but the numbers of bees would still diminish over time and I would just shake more in as needed.
There's a video of a removal I saw that gave me an idea for next time. There was a canoe leaning next to the entrance of the problem hive which was moved for access and during the removal it was noticed the airborne bees were locating at the moved canoe. It got me thinking they may use visual landmarks as well as the sun when returning to the hive.
My thinking is if I set up something like a sawhorse (always on hand here) in front of the donor hive then move it along with the split bees they may be more inclined to stick around the new hive. We'll see how that works out soon.
-
Bob,
The bees do use visuals as well as scent when they get close to the hive. If you move the hive about 4' the field bees will return to the old location at high speed and once they locate the new location Even though they know the new location, they will fly to the old location and do a S pattern to the new location usually until they die. If you smoke the hive you will see returning bees stop at the entrance checking it out to make sure they are at the correct hive.
Jim
-
I had a swarm turn up in a hive that was in the workshop for repair. I moved them about 6" every few hours and eventually, after a couple of days, got them out of the shed.
In shifting I kept the entrance facing the same direction.
-
I had a swarm turn up in a hive that was in the workshop for repair.
That's funny - seems like you just can't keep those dang bees out of your hair! Next thing you know, they'll be knocking at your front door :)
-
I had a swarm turn up in a hive that was in the workshop for repair. I moved them about 6" every few hours and eventually, after a couple of days, got them out of the shed.
In shifting I kept the entrance facing the same direction.
My father in law had a swarm from his neighbors hive land 30 feet up a tree. Then it moved into a hive box that was a part of a stack of supers in his garage.
Jim
-
Very sorry to hear of your loss. I am not familiar with keeping bees on a trailer, as my hives are alway stationary. Forgive my ignorance but what is the purpose of keeping them on a trailer unless they are to be moved in a single day or so?
-
Jim, Sawdust, do you plan to treat your hives for mites this year, 2018?
Blessings
-
Very sorry to hear of your loss. I am not familiar with keeping bees on a trailer, as my hives are alway stationary. Forgive my ignorance but what is the purpose of keeping them on a trailer unless they are to be moved in a single day or so?
I put the hives on the trailer to move them from my old house to my farm. A friend lives next to large golden fields so I moved them to his property for the fall flow.
I built the trailer years ago to move them from my home in Jacksonville to my farm for the spring gallberry flow and then I moved them back to Jacksonville where I have good flows most of the year
-
Jim, Sawdust, do you plan to treat your hives for mites this year, 2018?
Blessings
I have given it a lot of thought but as of right now, no.
I'm still not certain that the bees were not poisoned. I need to find out where I can get the bees/honey that I have in the freezer tested.
Jim
-
I'm still not certain that the bees were not poisoned.
Double negative so do you think they were poisoned or not? Not clear to me.
-
Jim, Texas A&M test honey $60 per sample don't know about price if you are not Blessed by being a Texan.
-
Ace, double negatives equals a positive, but I bet you know this. Crafty of you to catch double negatives, you are educated yet humble. Your past text indicates to me your knowledge of physics or similar. Your past post on infrared, spectrometer, refractors that is, lasers and comments on humidity or uncommon. Good to know stuff. Why NOT so UNhumble? OK, I get the bad joke award for previous sentence.
Blessings
-
Ace, double negatives equals a positive,
Of course I know this but is that what Jim wanted to say? That I don't know. Which is why I was asking.
-
Ace, double negatives equals a positive,
Of course I know this but is that what Jim wanted to say? That I don't know. Which is why I was asking.
Ace,
I was trying to say I think they were poisoned. If I take out either negative it does not come out right.
Jim
-
That is terrible. Especially when you had these bees surviving on no chemicals. Thanks for the clarification.