Aw crap.

[Nyleve]

Just made up some syrup and went out to feed my hive. Opened the lid and...nothing. Nothing. Nothing but a few yellowjackets. This happened over no longer than about a week and a half. Last time I checked they were still there. Today nothing. I'm so sad.

[BeeMaster2]

Sorry to hear that. YJs can kill a hive quick. I have 3 dynatraps around my house to remove them.
Jim Altmiller

[Ben Framed]

Nyleve I a sorry for your loss and the disappointment that goes along with it. I take it, this was you only hive? May I encourage you to not give up. Save the resources you have and restock this spring. And, if this is your only hive I would also suggest you obtain three more for a total of four, if finances and space allows..

Phillip

[Nyleve]

I've had one hive for 11 years. I've lost the colony a few times and had to get new ones, but never like this. It's always been - oh well, they didn't make it through the winter. Sad but understandable. I've never had this before - losing them suddenly in November after a good  season. I'm blaming the long, moderate fall temperatures that have allowed the stupid %#$*&# yellowjackets still be active. As I said, they were fine about a week ago so this literally just happened. I will regroup and get a new buncha bees in the spring. I don't think I'll go to 4 hives, but possibly 2. I'm a bit of a scaredy-cat beek, so prefer to keep things very simple. But I do love my girls and today is a sad day for me. I'll put away my stuff and wait for spring. Thanks for the sympathy and support. I'll be back.

[Ben Framed]

Thanks for the sympathy and support. I'll be back.

Awesome!!!

[The15thMember]

Aw, that's a shame.     I think that two hives is probably a safer bet than one, that way you can use them to support each other, and you don't lose everything if something happens to one.  But boy, that is a tough blow, to have them be gone just like that.       

[Acebird]

Look for evidence of mite infestation.  Fall is the make or break time for hives to crash.

[Nyleve]

I had treated for mites about a month before this. There was evidence of mites but it didn't seem too severe - I did a single treatment of Formic Pro. The hive was still active 3 weeks after treatment. This happened in the week since I last checked for feeding.

Ok so it's done. I'd like to know what I can do differently next year. This particular type of dead-out has never happened to me before. I've had hives that just didn't make it through the winter but I've never lost a really active hive in the fall before. I had seen a few yellow jackets around through the summer but that's normal. Did the YJs kill and eat all the bees? Or did the colony abscond? Any ideas? I'd like to learn for next season.

[The15thMember]

I had treated for mites about a month before this. There was evidence of mites but it didn't seem too severe - I did a single treatment of Formic Pro. The hive was still active 3 weeks after treatment. This happened in the week since I last checked for feeding.

This is oddly coincidental.  I had treated some of my hives with FormicPro and two of them showed no reduction in mites.  I was skeptical I had a bad batch of ForimicPro, since the one package worked fine and the other one didn't.  I wish I still had the packaging and knew the batch number. 

Ok so it's done. I'd like to know what I can do differently next year. This particular type of dead-out has never happened to me before. I've had hives that just didn't make it through the winter but I've never lost a really active hive in the fall before. I had seen a few yellow jackets around through the summer but that's normal. Did the YJs kill and eat all the bees? Or did the colony abscond? Any ideas? I'd like to learn for next season.

I've never seen a yellow jacket kill, so I can't speak to that personally, but I doubt the yellow jackets would leave the hive entirely clean of bees unless the colony was already small.  (I trust those with more experience will correct me if I'm wrong.)  How big was the colony?  Were there stores or brood left behind?   

[Acebird]

Did the YJs kill and eat all the bees? Or did the colony abscond? Any ideas? I'd like to learn for next season.

No.  Who knows?  There should be at least 40000 bees in the hive.  No way the YJ can eat them all.  They could have abscond but you need to know if mites were involved.  Even up north bees have been known to swarm in fall.  It is a suicide swarm but they do it.
You have been doing this for 11 years or more?  You either know enough or you are very lucky.  Life doesn't always stay that way.  Just get another hive and don't freak out.  I would say keep doing what you have already done.

[BeeMaster2]

Ace,
Don?t tell Kathyp that YJs can?t kill a whole hive, she has lost a lot of hives to YJs.
I have also lost a few. Usually in the fall when the YJs switch to bees for their food source.
The only reason I don?t have trouble now is due to the dynatraps.
Jim Altmiller

[NigelP]

Very occasionally in the UK we come across hives with no bees in them, I call it Mary Celeste syndrome. No rhyme or reason sometimes. Had one hive full of bees in Feb, come mid march not one left...all gone. No obvious reason, plenty of stores left etc.

[Ben Framed]

Very occasionally in the UK we come across hives with no bees in them, I call it Mary Celeste syndrome. No rhyme or reason sometimes. Had one hive full of bees in Feb, come mid march not one left...all gone. No obvious reason, plenty of stores left etc.

That is a good example Nigel.  The fate of the crew of the Mary Celeste is still a mystery. Being this just recently happened to Nyleves' hive, may afford some clues if examined and looked into more closely. For one, I would look for mite frass. An abundant amount of mite frass on brood combs is usually a tell tale sign in a case like this; Pointing to (Abscond), especially this time of year.
Without more details I kind of suspect that Brian is most likely correct... However, until the frames are closely examined, I would leave the door open to other possibilities and reasons as well.

Acebird
Look for evidence of mite infestation.

Phillip

[Nyleve]

Please describe what I am looking for as mite frass. I have seen mites, of course. and really, this time, not that many. But what I saw on the bottom board is mostly bee legs.

[Ben Framed]

Nyleve This is the best written paper I have read discussing Varroa. Written by: TheHoneyPump.
Along with pictures

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A TYPICAL CASE OF COLONY COLLAPSE, PARASITIC MITE SYNDROME, VARROA DESTRUCTOR
? on: July 20, 2021, 07:31:42 pm ?
QuoteModifyRemoveSplit Topic
I take no credit for this excellent analysis put together by TheHoneyPump and The15thMember but I do find it way too valuable to be buried in another post or potentially disappear from google drive.  It is chocked fully of valuable information for hobbyist beekeepers trying to understand and deal with varroa mites.   So I creating this post to be pinned and attaching a copy of the presentation.

The original location can be found here -> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NvP-olm7vwMxPVH-Oi1CNHH70Wq913ym/view

* reaganshivecollapse.pdf (2228.88 kB - downloaded 1 times.)

[NigelP]

. Did the YJs kill and eat all the bees? Or did the colony abscond? Any ideas? I'd like to learn for next season.

Believe it or not Yellowjackets are nectar feeders. They kill prey for their larvae to feed on who digest it and produce a sweet food that the adults live on. When the nests are finished at the end of the year their is no more sweet "nectar" for the adults so they go looking for sweet food and hives full of  honey are a prime target. Of course the bees defend their stores and mayhem begins as the battle for the stores ensues.
The answer is large hives full of bees capable of defending against wasp attacks or, in the case of weak hives, tunnel entrances which makes it far easier for the bees to defend. Narrowing the entrance helps but is ineffective when large numbers of wasp are about.

[Acebird]

Ace,
Don?t tell Kathyp that YJs can?t kill a whole hive, she has lost a lot of hives to YJs.

For the hives that can't defend themselves they kill the queen and then it is game over.  If you want to find a solution of why it happens then determine why the hive was weak.  Numbers alone do not confirm that a hive is strong.  For instance a laying worker hive can have a lot of bees in it.

[Ben Framed]

. Did the YJs kill and eat all the bees? Or did the colony abscond? Any ideas? I'd like to learn for next season.

Believe it or not Yellowjackets are nectar feeders. They kill prey for their larvae to feed on who digest it and produce a sweet food that the adults live on. When the nests are finished at the end of the year their is no more sweet "nectar" for the adults so they go looking for sweet food and hives full of  honey are a prime target. Of course the bees defend their stores and mayhem begins as the battle for the stores ensues.
The answer is large hives full of bees capable of defending against wasp attacks or, in the case of weak hives, tunnel entrances which makes it far easier for the bees to defend. Narrowing the entrance helps but is ineffective when large numbers of wasp are about.

Good information again NigelP. Considering the above explanation of the natural habits of yellow jackets in the Fall, leads me to a what if question. Is it reasonable to look into the possibility that the bees might have absconded leaving only a handful of bees, making it even that much easier for yellow jackets to freely come and go with slight opposition as they devour the remaining desired food sources, both larva and honey as you describe above? Again abscond is only a guess. More evidence by Nyleve would be interesting and helpful in her quest for answers.

Phillip

[beesnweeds]

I had treated for mites about a month before this. There was evidence of mites but it didn't seem too severe - I did a single treatment of Formic Pro. The hive was still active 3 weeks after treatment. This happened in the week since I last checked for feeding.

Ok so it's done. I'd like to know what I can do differently next year. This particular type of dead-out has never happened to me before. I've had hives that just didn't make it through the winter but I've never lost a really active hive in the fall before. I had seen a few yellow jackets around through the summer but that's normal. Did the YJs kill and eat all the bees? Or did the colony abscond? Any ideas? I'd like to learn for next season.

They may have gone queenless, did you see scattered drone brood or queen cells?  My experience with yellow jackets in the north is they are just taking advantage of dying hives.  Formic can also be rough on bees and weaken them.

From the link Ben posted:
SUMMER: No checks, no treatments.  Let the bees bee bees.

Thats a big mistake for sure, routinely check mite numbers and treat as necessary.

[NigelP]

Good information again NigelP. Considering the above explanation of the natural habits of yellow jackets in the Fall, leads me to a what if question. Is it reasonable to look into the possibility that the bees might have absconded leaving only a handful of bees, making it even that much easier for yellow jackets to freely come and go with slight opposition as they devour the remaining desired food sources, both larva and honey as you describe above? Again abscond is only a guess. More evidence by Nyleve would be interesting and helpful in her quest for answers.

Phillip

I don't know the answer to that question Philip as too many unknowns. It's certainly a possibility that if they were being harassed by wasp that absconding might be a way of getting away from the nuisance.
I've heard from several beekeepers, whose opinions I trust, that absconding can happen at any time of the year. It's very very rare, but does happen and reasons for it happening are currently unknown. In my one and only case in 20+ years it was early spring. It was annoying as the hive itself was the worst propolisers I'd ever come across and a friend who sells propolis products was desperate to have them in his apiary.

[Ben Framed]

I am thinking or theorizing more in the lines of absconding Initially because of Verona mite infestation. Leaving an open door for yellow jackets. Of course as I have said all along also, I have no way of knowing if mites are the main culprit.

Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Beesnweeds thank you for your good post and input. This hive might have very well went queenless.

Just a quick explanation for clarification;  Nyleve had posted just prior to my post:  "Please describe what I am looking for as mite frass. I have seen mites, of course. and really, this time, not that many. But what I saw on the bottom board is mostly bee legs"

I answered that question by posting HoneyPumps complete article, which covered her question, (and much more), of what to look for concerning mite frass because of the very clear pictures posted within that paper. I hope this helped Nyleve in that venture. I can not speak for TheHoneyPump but I think if his advice if followed (within context of the full program), His advice is solid. However, I will leave any clarification to HP speaking for himself. 😊

Phillip

[Acebird]

SUMMER: No checks, no treatments.  Let the bees bee bees.

Thats a big mistake for sure, routinely check mite numbers and treat as necessary.

Well that depends on if you are willing to live with the consequences to keep chemicals out of your hives.  Nyleve was suggesting 11 years experience.  If you can go 11 years without chemicals I would do it in a heartbeat.

[LawyerRick]

Regan's hive story is pretty accurate EXCEPT the part about not testing/treating during the summer.  When I first started beekeeping 10 years ago, you MIGHT be able to ignore summer mite numbers & get away with testing/treating in the fall.  Since that time, mite pressure has been increasing, both in number & lethality.  I start testing/treating as soon as I can get in the hive in April, then I test/treat every 4 weeks until late August, when I test/treat every 2 to 3 weeks until October to uncover mite bombs from other crashing colonies.  In SE Michigan, mites have become a 12 month menace.

[Nyleve]

Thank you for all that information. I will go back down to the hive this coming weekend to have a closer look at what remains. Weather has been atrocious recently so haven't had a chance. What I did notice when I last looked is that the honey super on the top - which had been harvested but left in place for feeding - has some bashed-up corners where it might have been possible for hornets to get in. Maybe too many holes in the hive for the colony to defend. I also had not reduced the entrance because I don't usually do that until the weather really starts to turn cold, which hadn't happened yet.

A friend has had similar happen to her hive and she blames it on the yellow jackets being active too long into the fall - after all the usual sources of food are finished. So they go hunting for honey. That is also possible as we did have a weirdly warm fall here in Ontario. As for the mites, I did see a very full and active hive two weeks after treatment. But I don't know that there was a queen - so it's also possible that the treatment killed the queen and then the colony collapsed and was overtaken by yellow jackets.

I don't suppose I'll ever know exactly what happened. But I will start over again in the spring. Guess I don't have to spend the winter worrying about whether my girls are ok or not.

[Acebird]

I also had not reduced the entrance because I don't usually do that until the weather really starts to turn cold, which hadn't happened yet.

Wrong timing.  You could change that.  Reduce the entrance when there is no longer anything to forage.  Temperature means nothing.  Robbing does not occur during very cold weather.

[Michael Bush]

It seems doubtful in Ontario that yellow jackets could wipe out a hive.  I've never seen it here in Nebraska.  Winter sets them back too far and there are just never enough to be a serious problem.  Other things are more likely.  The yellow jackets were probably just there at the time.  They could have gotten weak and robbed out.  They could have starved.  They could have died from Varroa mites.  I would do a post mortem.
http://bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#Why%20did%20my%20bees%20die?

[Bill Murray]

Im going to add something here. as for the yellowjackets my thoughts had always been in line with Michaels
 

there are just never enough to be a serious problem.

But I saw something yesterday that will change that thinking. I drove out to feed bees yesterday morning and when I pulled up to the yard there were tons of bees flying, it was still chilly and I found that quite odd. There were more Yellowjackets than bees. I mean literally hundreds of them. There were 28 hives at the location, mostly double deeps, with good populations and a few fall splits. every hive I opened had Yellowjackets in them. Now heres what I saw. The larger hives were still mostly clustered. and the yellowjackets were all over the outer frames more or less just taking what they wanted. the bottom boards had dead bees in different processes of dissection. The cappings were stripped with honey removed, and where just 5 days ago had been larva was now empty. The interior feeders were chock full of them. The landing boards and in front of them were littered dead bees and yellowjackets. w I had to have killed a thousand Yellowjackets maybe more. I packed up 6 of the  fall splits that looked like they needed to be moved and packed the entrances of the other hives with leaves. I wish i had a camera it was a sight unlike anything I have seen. Almost amazing. But I will say now I understand when someone says their hive was decimated by yellowjackets.

As for a strong hive, It didnt look like the yellowjackets were having much of a problem coming and going at their leisure. I guess if youve never experienced something like that you just cant wrap your head around it.

[Acebird]

In FL I see hundreds of hives around me all with feeder on them.  So that tells me we are in a dearth  With 80 degree temps it is flying weather.  That is not the same condition that you would find up north.
People don't like yellow jackets so in the spring when they emerge they are more likely to get sprayed and trapped by humans up north.

[Michael Bush]

I think in places like Florida sometimes the yellow jackets don't die off in winter and they do become strong enough to be a serious problem.  I just haven't seen it this far north.

[Ben Framed]

One more idea, as beesnweeds stated they might have went queen less. Being Nyleve told us she had used formic pro before; Could it be the queen was killed at that time? That would do it if an emergency queen was not successfully developed and properly mated. Most of us have heard that the hive will sometimes kill the queen when using formic. Especially if a mistake is made in its use. 🤷‍♂️

Phillip