Are Yellow Jackets the enemy of Honey Bees?

[CoolBees]

Sometimes - No, they are a friend.

Now - to anyone who has lost a hive to YJ's, yes they most certainly are the enemy.

But, over the course of the summer and into this fall, I witnessed a phenomenon that made them friends. I, like many of you, have to fight the YJ's every year, especially in the spring and fall, to catch the queens.

This year we had more YJ's than ever before. Billions of them ... (ok, that's exaggerating) ... 1,000's anyways. And I began to invent more ways to catch them. But I noticed 2 things: 1) I didn't seem to be able to make a dent in the YJ population & 2) (completely unrelated - I thought) I wasn't having the Ant problem that my bees fight every year. (I've lost more hives to Ants than any other single cause).

One afternoon I was sitting in the Apiary - and I observed an unlimited supply of YJ's hovering around the ground near the hives. And as I waited for the inevitable hive-entrance conflicts, they never happened. The YJ's were too busy to bother the hives. I got on my hands and knees, and watched closely ... they were targeting the Ants with a relentless force, hovering low and grabbing every Ant they found. It was quite a sight - and they've been doing it all summer.

In a normal year, if I fail to spray the hive stand legs with an Ant blocker every 2 months, I'll lose every hive in 3 weeks after the blocker wears off. I haven't sprayed once this year - since the spring.

Anyways - I took down my YJ traps and left them bee. Hive entrance conflicts are occurring now, as the firest fall rains have knocked the Ants down in population - as always happens. (These ants can't survive rains - only a few make it thru the winter, but by the next fall, they are everywhere again).

In short - nature is amazing, and I feel that we know so little.

[Ben Framed]

Coolbees
In short - nature is amazing, and I feel that we know so little.

That may very well be true. We have much to learn. As a close to nature man, you have picked up on some good stuff.. I for one thank you sir..  (keep the good stuff coming)

Phillip

[Acebird]

(These ants can't survive rains - only a few make it thru the winter, but by the next fall, they are everywhere again).

The darn ants survive hurricanes down here.
I never paid much attention to ants up north.  Didn't seem to bother the hives.  I wonder if that is the reason I lost my hive and why it was so pissy.

[rast]

Bull (carpenter) ants are the nemesis here, they can kill a hive. Thank goodness fire ants , being protein eaters, have not found larva to be a food source yet.

[The15thMember]

That's really neat, Alan.  It's true, we often underestimate or don't truly understand the ecological relationships between creatures. 

[TheHoneyPump]

I read somewhere awhile ago that the largest concentration of biomass on land on the planet is supposedly .. ants.
Ant levels around the beeyard is fairly easily controlled with granule type bait poison that they can take back to the satellite nests and ultimately the main mother nest.  It is not immediate.  Takes 2 - 3 weeks to effect. Then you are left wondering where all the ants went.
As for the wasps. They are opportunistic carnivores. Whatever is there and easy they will take. Eventually when other meats is depleted the easy pickings will become your beehives.
A predator of the wasp is the baldfaced hornet. (Big black and white). If you have a wasp problem and seeing the hornets, try to devise traps that leave the hornets unscathed.  Though, when wasps become scarce the hornets will be in the beehives.
It appears that the new giant hornet is eating mainly wasps and other hornets.  Good-bad?  Eventually when those are harder to find surely the gh will be onto beehives.
At the beehive:  ants are a problem, wasps are a problem, hornets are a problem .. which is most prominent in your beeyard is just a matter of which of those there are more of.
I have many dead wasp and bf hornets on piles on the ground out front the hives this year.  No ants round though, because they were baited and wiped out early in spring.
I suppose my ramblings are merely saying this is example of natures constant shifting of the balance between predator-prey populations.

[CoolBees]

@ HP ... I've been meaning to post what I watched this summer - regarding Honey bees, Yellow jackets, and Hornets. It's hard, for me to explain in a concise manner. (I was actually hoping to get photos next year and maybe some videos - to help with the explanation). It happened at my newest apiary which sets in a thick forest along the edge of a large river.

basically, I watched Hornets chowing down on YJ's, and occasionally also eating dead honey bees from around the hives - what was particularly interesting, is that I could watch the Hornets and YJ'S interact at the distance of a few inches away - for hours. It was as fine a slaughter as any military command could hope for. Those Hornets are amazing hunter/killers, and so much fun to watch ... hopefully next year I can post some videos.

@ 15th - yes. I feel that for all our human scientific arrogance, we know SO LITTLE! Nature and it's interactions are so poorly documented imho.

[NigelP]

As for the wasps. They are opportunistic carnivores. Whatever is there and easy they will take. Eventually when other meats is depleted the easy pickings will become your beehives.

Not quite true, adult wasps are sweet  nectar feeders.....although they appear to have carnivorous habits. The prey they catch  is for their larvae which digest them and then produce a sweet nectar that wasps feed on. They also get their sugars from flower nectar and honeydew produced by aphids same as bees (Wasps, by J.Philip Spradbery).
Yes they will, as well as other insects/larvae, kill bees for protein for their larvae. What usually happens is that after the larvae have all emerged and new wasp queens mated etc there are no larvae left in nest to produce any nectar for the adults.....and sugar/nectar  sources are getting few and far between...So wasps get desperate for nectar sources and beehives become magnets for them as a place with rich resources of nectar/honey. 
Big problem levery autumn here in the UK with many hives getting over run with wasps desperate for their sugar resources. Best solution is big hives with lots of bees that resist their attempts to invade them.

[The15thMember]

As for the wasps. They are opportunistic carnivores. Whatever is there and easy they will take. Eventually when other meats is depleted the easy pickings will become your beehives.

Not quite true, adult wasps are sweet  nectar feeders.....although they appear to have carnivorous habits. The prey they catch  is for their larvae which digest them and then produce a sweet nectar that wasps feed on. They also get their sugars from flower nectar and honeydew produced by aphids same as bees (Wasps, by J.Philip Spradbery).
Yes they will, as well as other insects/larvae, kill bees for protein for their larvae. What usually happens is that after the larvae have all emerged and new wasp queens mated etc there are no larvae left in nest to produce any nectar for the adults.....and sugar/nectar  sources are getting few and far between...So wasps get desperate for nectar sources and beehives become magnets for them as a place with rich resources of nectar/honey. 
Big problem levery autumn here in the UK with many hives getting over run with wasps desperate for their sugar resources. Best solution is big hives with lots of bees that resist their attempts to invade them.

I did not know that wasps feed on their own larvae's honeydew, that is incredible!  I really need to get a book on wasps, I've been wanting to learn more about them.  Too bad the one you referenced is mostly focused on the UK.  I'll have to see if I can find one for America. 

[CoolBees]

I did not know that wasps feed on their own larvae's honeydew, that is incredible!  I really need to get a book on wasps, I've been wanting to learn more about them.  Too bad the one you referenced is mostly focused on the UK.  I'll have to see if I can find one for America.

I think there is more to it than that. There are many types of "wasps", and each has its own unique ways.

As an example: I was at a friend's ranch over the summer. I noticed numerous Paper Wasp nests above my head on the underside of the veranda. I commented that I could help take them down. "No" he says, "they eat all the flies". He went on to say that he used to take them down, and used to have a fly problem. Then he read a study regarding this, and left them up for a year - no more flies. He's left them up ever since. Sure enough - not one fly bothered us thru the afternoon (very unusual for a California ranch in the summer).

This was news to me.

Also, there's a wasp out here that lays it's eggs in spiders. And ... well ... there's a lot of Wasp types ...

[NigelP]

Like many things in America you'll find many wasps and hornet's like Vespa crabro etc and were illicit immigrants from Europe. Most have same nutritional requirements and are sweet feeders.  One confusing aspect of their behaviour is observers seeing  (for example) a hornet picking over its recently killed bee. It's not actually eating it, it's removing all the non essential parts (like legs) to make it easier to fly the carcass back to it's nest for their larvae to feed on.

[NigelP]

I think there is more to it than that. There are many types of "wasps", and each has its own unique ways.

You are not wrong, there are many wasp econiches involving different survival tactics. There are wasps in  Mexico (Brachygastra mellifica) that produce honey. But the majority of the adults in most species are sweet feeders. Yellow jackets are typical of them.
A possibility for your lack of flies scenario is the wasps killed them as food for their offspring.

[BeeMaster2]

I did not know that wasps feed on their own larvae's honeydew, that is incredible!  I really need to get a book on wasps, I've been wanting to learn more about them.  Too bad the one you referenced is mostly focused on the UK.  I'll have to see if I can find one for America.

I think there is more to it than that. There are many types of "wasps", and each has its own unique ways.

As an example: I was at a friend's ranch over the summer. I noticed numerous Paper Wasp nests above my head on the underside of the veranda. I commented that I could help take them down. "No" he says, "they eat all the flies". He went on to say that he used to take them down, and used to have a fly problem. Then he read a study regarding this, and left them up for a year - no more flies. He's left them up ever since. Sure enough - not one fly bothered us thru the afternoon (very unusual for a California ranch in the summer).

This was news to me.

Also, there's a wasp out here that lays it's eggs in spiders. And ... well ... there's a lot of Wasp types ...

Allen,
Here in Baker County, we have a lot of mud Dobber wasps. They get their name from carrying around a dob of mud to make their nests with. Their are several different types, you can tell because the nest are shaped differently. When you take the nest apart, they are full of spiders that the Dobbers have stung, inserted an egg and put them in the nest. One good thing is that despite their size, they are not defensive of the nest and rarely ever sting people.
The biggest problem is that they love to make their nests on garage ceilings and inside of any closed object that has a small hole.
Jim Altmiller

[The15thMember]

I think there is more to it than that. There are many types of "wasps", and each has its own unique ways. 

Oh certainly, that's why I'm in the market for a book.  It turns out that, like bees, there are thousands of different wasps, most of which are solitary and docile, like the mud daubers Jim mentioned, which we also have here.  It's just like native bees, I never knew there was anything but paper wasps and yellow jackets until I started learning about pollinators. 

Last year I put up a mason bee can on my sisters' swingset so they could watch the bees while playing on the swings.  The bees didn't take to the can though, I think it was too shaded, but these tiny little potter wasps built several nests there instead.  They would sit in the tubes and peer out, and if you got too close they would scoot back into the straws so you couldn't see them anymore, like little wack-a-moles!  They were so cute.  I didn't get any nests from them this year for some reason.   

Two years ago I had the privilege of watching a great golden sand digger wasp dig out a nest.  I love these wasps, the females are solitary and and dig nests in the soil, and they are huge and strikingly beautiful. 

[CoolBees]

That is so cool 15th!!

... a hornet picking over its recently killed bee. It's not actually eating it, it's removing all the non essential parts (like legs) to make it easier to fly the carcass back to it's nest for their larvae to feed on.

It's interesting that you mentioned this Nigel. I know it's true. .. but I witnessed Hornets eating whole bees from head to toe this summer - both honey bees and yellow jackets were consumed. I'm not sure what exact type of hornet - the were very similar to the Bald Faced, but with less white on the face, just 2 stripes on the sides, and a longer narrower abdomen. Very elegant to watch up close. (Full disclosure - I haven't seen a Bald Faced since I was a kid in the north-east US - so I could be wrong. An Internet search didn't help.)

This is what I'd like to get videos of next summer. It's was highly entertaining (to me) to watch the Hornets snatch the YJ'S out of the air, tumble to a landing place, kill them, and then move to an eating perch and chow down. Then they'd "clean up" thoroughly. ...

Inside my bear-proof apiary cage - I watched the same hornets eating whole honey bees. They did remove the wings and legs on the honey bees. They then ate on the spot. ... didn't seem to have much impact on the attitude or qualities of my hives.

[NigelP]

Now that is some bear proofing.......non over here ,thank goodness, but we still have ratty bees.
Many hornets will scavenge and feed on anything they can find particularly late season. Some do masticate their prey and then regurgitate it back up for their young to feed on. But eusocial wasps are definitely nectar feeders.
But as in most things there are bound to be exceptions to the norm 

[Acebird]

I feel that for all our human scientific arrogance, we know SO LITTLE! Nature and it's interactions are so poorly documented imho.

I doubt it that is the case if you studied entomology.  There are people that know.

[Acebird]

Inside my bear-proof apiary cage -

Has it been tested?

[The15thMember]

Inside my bear-proof apiary cage -

Has it been tested?

I was going to ask this too.  That is a really neat idea, Alan.  I've never seen anything like that before for bear protection.

Now that is some bear proofing.......non over here ,thank goodness, but we still have ratty bees.
Many hornets will scavenge and feed on anything they can find particularly late season. Some do masticate their prey and then regurgitate it back up for their young to feed on. But eusocial wasps are definitely nectar feeders.
But as in most things there are bound to be exceptions to the norm 

Another interesting wasp fact that I didn't know! 

This reminds me of an episode of the Pollination podcast I was listening to last week.  There was a scientist on there who was doing research on bees in trees, like she was doing sampling in treetops and then dissecting to see what the bees were eating to discover how much of their diet was tree nectar/pollen.  She caught a bunch of males and decided to dissect them too and found that surprisingly they all had a significant amount of pollen in their guts, even though it's been thought that male bees eat very little or no pollen, since they don't need protein to make eggs.  Another example of how much we don't know.             

[CoolBees]

Inside my bear-proof apiary cage -

Has it been tested?

Yes. Here's one of the many that tried.

.... Some do masticate their prey and then regurgitate it back up for their young to feed on. ...:

Very interesting. Now I'm determined to video next year. The information exchange here is always excellent - a video might draw out far more details & knowledge.

[CoolBees]

I was going to ask this too.  That is a really neat idea, Alan.  I've never seen anything like that before for bear protection.
     

Per usual - it was something I dreamed up - for a location with lots of bears, and no electricity. The bears chewed and scraped the entrances some - and I ate one of the bears.  But no other harm came than that. ... it actually worked better than I expected.

The cage provides the Hornets with landing places at my eye-level - above the hives. Makes it easy to watch them.

[The15thMember]

Per usual - it was something I dreamed up - for a location with lots of bears, and no electricity. The bears chewed and scraped the entrances some - and I ate one of the bears. But no other harm came than that. ... it actually worked better than I expected.

The cage provides the Hornets with landing places at my eye-level - above the hives. Makes it easy to watch them.

[Ben Framed]

Member do you have bears in your area?

[The15thMember]

Member do you have bears in your area?

This is definitely bear country, but I've never seen any in my immediate area.  I've actually never personally seen any at all, but lots of people I know have.  Our bears around here are still wild enough to avoid decently populated areas.  Over in Asheville, it is another matter.  The bears there, through learning to live around people, have become prolific, bold, and a big problem.  In my area one hot wire or a couple of dogs will do the job, over there you need to do something serious to prevent bears from getting hives.  They could really use something like what Alan has invented.     

[Acebird]

They could really use something like what Alan has invented.     

I think a better solution is to harvest the bears for dog food.  Just clean them out.

[CoolBees]

They could really use something like what Alan has invented.     

I think a better solution is to harvest the bears for dog food.  Just clean them out.

Dog Food? Let me count the ways that statement is wrong ...

1 - the wholesale slaughter of beautiful animals so that man can "get along a little better" is a morally bankrupt thought process.
2 - that would be a violation of Fish & Game laws, and would bee therefore illegal - and carries hefty prison sentences
3 - properly handled bear meat is some of the BEST meat there is - its identical to pork, except with a dark red color, and exchangeable in any recipe.
4 - It shows complete disregard for the ecological impact (that libs always claim to care about)
5 - it is wanton destruction of God's creation

... and I could go on. I'll thank you not to come near my bears.

[Ben Framed]

Friends I remember a discussion we had a few years ago on the TOPIC: "Bear attacked my hives oh no, please no!!!". A very interesting topic started by Mr. Van, (van from Arkansas), remembering it kind of drifted, or became somewhat 'unfriendly' when "someone" 'suggested' shooting bears with a 22. I fear this potentially controversial suggestion of eliminating bears may once again cause a good topic to lead to confusion. Let's be careful not getting too far off track on this topic. Please help keep it on track and friendly.

Thanks,

Phillip 

[Kathyp]

 
Hate to de(re)rail this to the OP, but the YJ issue is one I have had over the years.  In fact, this is the first year in many that I have not had enough of them around to be a problem

In other years they have killed my hives.  You'd think a strong hive could stand up against them, but they are relentless and once they get in and get the queen, it's all over. 

So yes, in my opinion, YJs are the enemy of the beehive.  I don't have ants around that are anything more than a bother.  Swallows??  They are good for a whole 'nother conversation. 

[CoolBees]

Hate to de(re)rail this to the OP, but the YJ issue is one I have had over the years.  In fact, this is the first year in many that I have not had enough of them around to be a problem

In other years they have killed my hives.  You'd think a strong hive could stand up against them, but they are relentless and once they get in and get the queen, it's all over. 

So yes, in my opinion, YJs are the enemy of the beehive.  I don't have ants around that are anything more than a bother.  Swallows??  They are good for a whole 'nother conversation.

Kathy - you can't derail this thread. I've read your horror stories regarding YJ's. They are no friend of the honey bee. ... I just couldn't think of a "catchy" title, for what I observed. I figured you'd be the least understanding, considering what you've been thru. I definitely don't blame you.

BTW - (I'll derail - you might find this interesting) - I got tired of the store bought disposable YJ traps. Put them right next to the carcass of a ground squirrel that my cats dragged home. The carcass is covered in YJ'S - not one in the trap... so, I cut away the trap bags, leaving just the hard plastic "catch" portion of the trap, got a vacuum seal bag ($0.03 ea from vacmaster), placed some red (ground) meat in it (about 1 tablespoon), and duct-tapped the bag to the "catch" part of the trap and added a 1/4 cup of water. Viola - half a bag of YJ'S in an afternoon. I built and placed 9 of these around, using old traps, changing the bag & meat every 3 days - no YJ's after 7 days. ... very successful.

These were the traps I pulled down once I figured out the YJ'S were eating the ants. Way too many YJ'S down here this year - didn't lose a hive to them thankfully.

[NigelP]

This may or may not be of help to YJ sufferers but here in the UK we do a couple of things. One is to reduce the entrance size right down to 2 or 3 bees widths. I should add we all pretty much use bottom entrances over here.
It makes it easier for the bees to defend against the yellow perils. However, as Kath has said even strong hives can get overwhelmed. In this case we make a tunnel entrance that is about 6 inches long. You need a 6 inch deep plank of wood the same height as your entrance and cut to the same width so it can slide inside to make a new entrance.  Using a chisel etc cut a tunnel about half the height of the wood and about 2-3 bee spaces long. Now the YJ have to negotiate a long tunnel that bees find a lot easier to defend. It also means any getting through end up in the middle of the hive that is also full of bees.
In worst case scenarios even this may not be enough....so we move the hives to another site and pray 

[Acebird]

The bears there, through learning to live around people, have become prolific, bold, and a big problem. 

Alan, I didn't say anything about your bears.  Bears and people don't mix and one way or another the bears will be gone.

[Ben Framed]

The bears there, through learning to live around people, have become prolific, bold, and a big problem. 

Alan, I didn't say anything about your bears.  Bears and people don't mix and one way or another the bears will be gone.

Brian you have some interesting ideas and thoughts about contact of bears and humans. This might be an interesting topic in its own right. Perhaps you might consider starting a new topic in the coffeehouse, discussing your ideas and views of bears and humans in close proximity..

Thanks,

Phillip


I did not have problems with Yellow Jackets this season. It seemed they were scarce in comparison to previous seasons with my bees..

[Kathyp]

placed some red (ground) meat in it (about 1 tablespoon), and duct-tapped the bag to the "catch" part of the trap and added a 1/4 cup of water. Viola - half a bag of YJ'S in an afternoon. I built and placed 9 of these around, using old traps, changing the bag & meat every 3 days - no YJ's after 7 days. ... very successful.

I have tried both the homemade traps using rotten meat, cat food, etc.  For some reason, the ones that work best here are the bag type that are sold commercially.  They seem to be good at getting queens too if I time it right. 

We got lucky this year and they were not bad.  Don't know why and not going to question a good thing   

The only ants we get in the hives are sugar ants.  A PIA, but don't really do much damage unless the hive is going down anyway. 

Using a chisel etc cut a tunnel about half the height of the wood and about 2-3 bee spaces long. Now the YJ have to negotiate a long tunnel that bees find a lot easier to defend. It also means any getting through end up in the middle of the hive that is also full of bees.
In worst case scenarios even this may not be enough....so we move the hives to another site and pray 

This is a really interesting idea.  Worth saving for next year!

[Bill Murray]

kathy I feel for you after what I saw yesterday I have a newfound appreciation for the yellowjacket.

[CoolBees]

kathy I feel for you after what I saw yesterday I have a newfound appreciation for the yellowjacket.

As the OP of this thread - I feel the need to confess - I aquired an apiary site in Norcal last year (much nearer Kathy than where I live - right next to the Oregon border, on the banks of a large river). This year I ran a full-season test on the site, using 12 hives. Lots of Madrone and Blackberries at this location for spring honey. Also thick with surroundimg forests.

I've been watching many YJ'S and Hornets at this location all summer. I did inspections at least every month. In the 1st week of October, inspections revealed nectar coming in, so I opted to wait another month to pull the hives out. ... in the 1st week of November, all hives were dead. No exceptions. Lots of dead dismembered bodies on the bottom boards. Cappings pulled. Honey gone. No wax moths or SHB's. Just empty boxes of comb. I figure YJ's and Hornets.

My sympathies go out to anyone who experiences this ... Kathy. Next year I'll be pulling the hives out after the Blackberries.

[Ben Framed]

Thanks for this Alan and concurring Kathy's warning. I suppose it could happen anywhere if the Yellow Jacket population is strong enough. Sorry for your loss and disappointment my friend. May we all learn from this topic..

Phillip