How do honey bees survive without water?

[CoolBees]

Last weekend I found one of the ways they do it.

I was hiking high up in some mountains. It's very remote. I was there for several days with a backpack. On Saturday morning I slipped quietly into a small meadow - and I heard Bees, thousands of them. It took me several minutes to locate them - up, up, up in the tops of the short needle pines. The bees where in every tree.

I lay down on my back, took my binoculars and watched them closely for 30 mins or so. They were honey bees. And each bee was going to a dew drop caught at the base of 2 needles, and drinking it dry. The dew had collected in the needles over night.

The nearest water (that I know of) in that area (this time of year) is a large river about 2.5 miles line-of-sight away, and much lower in elevation. It's been a really dry year here - below 40% of the 30-year average annual rainfall. As a hunter, I have studied the water sources in the area (and I was hunting). All of the deer in the area are making the long trip to water every night, or every other night. The deers tracks tell the story of the water. If there was any other eater in the area, the deer would have told me.

I don't know how long these honey bees have been living up there. I don't think they are a swarm from one of my hives (about 3 miles away, and 5,000 ft lower in elevation). ... but I don't know. I suspect these bees have been there for a while.

Anyways - I found it quite interesting, and thought I'd share.

[CoolBees]

I should add:

I could see each bee drinking each small droplet dry.

The rains came finally on Sunday. The bees should have alternate water sources from now till next summer.

I love to wander the woods/mountains/etc. But, with responsibilities and what-not, I can't bring myself to go unless there's an alternative reason. A valid hunting tag gives me the reason. I quite often find that I don't care in the least if I fill my tag ... it's things like this that catch my interest.

[Ben Framed]

I am glad you posted this sharing of your first hand information. This type of enlightened revelation is very interesting. We are still learning from nature just as you have demonstrated. Alan, this also gives me hope for the bees themselves. From much of what I have read, It would seem the honey bee has a severe struggle to survive without our help here in our country. With small hive beetles, mites etc. they have a tough go at it. There are some who suggest the bee can not make it here for very long without our help. Your observation shows there is a hardy bee here, alive and well making it on their own!  Thank you Alan.

Phillip

[Acebird]

I could see each bee drinking each small droplet dry.

I always thought they were after sap to make propolise to seal up the hive for winter.  Bees get water from honey that they stored for the winter.  I guess they do different things in different areas.  Adaptability...

[NigelP]

Not sure they get water from their winter honey. Most water comes into a hive in the dilute nectar they collect.
Sealed honey is less than 20% water and if the biologists are to be believed,  bees can only utilise honey at 50% honey/50% water. Above 50% its too concentrated for them to absorb it (something to do with osmotic pressures etc). Capped or stored honey needs to be diluted with water  before bees can metabolise it. One of the first signs of spring in the UK is bees out collecting water to dilute their winter stores into food. We presume that during the depths of winter their is sufficient moisture/condensation within a hive that they have no need to go out collecting.
Although Thomas Sealey has an article originally published in ABJ describing water foraging activity of bees in Scotland in mid winter whenever the temp got up to 5C or above.

[Ben Framed]

NigelP it is my understanding that our bees here, in winter, obtain water by condensation inside the hive itself. Off the hive ceiling as well as the hive walls. Much in the way Coolbees described what he observed of his recent finding of dew on the pine needles during summer.

By similar revelation 'by some', I have the understanding that in colder weather, "really cold", this same condensement can drip and wet the bees to the point of freezing them. Which in a way, seems to be a contradiction yet in a way also makes sense. If the bees heat the inside of the hive, warm  enough to cause condensation, then they should be warm enough to survive the same? Perhaps this broad statement will bring some interesting discussion? We shall see. lol  Nature has a way of balance, Perhaps even inside a hive in winter with what was just described?

[The15thMember]

Last weekend I found one of the ways they do it.

I was hiking high up in some mountains. It's very remote. I was there for several days with a backpack. On Saturday morning I slipped quietly into a small meadow - and I heard Bees, thousands of them. It took me several minutes to locate them - up, up, up in the tops of the short needle pines. The bees where in every tree.

I lay down on my back, took my binoculars and watched them closely for 30 mins or so. They were honey bees. And each bee was going to a dew drop caught at the base of 2 needles, and drinking it dry. The dew had collected in the needles over night.

The nearest water (that I know of) in that area (this time of year) is a large river about 2.5 miles line-of-sight away, and much lower in elevation. It's been a really dry year here - below 40% of the 30-year average annual rainfall. As a hunter, I have studied the water sources in the area (and I was hunting). All of the deer in the area are making the long trip to water every night, or every other night. The deers tracks tell the story of the water. If there was any other eater in the area, the deer would have told me.

I don't know how long these honey bees have been living up there. I don't think they are a swarm from one of my hives (about 3 miles away, and 5,000 ft lower in elevation). ... but I don't know. I suspect these bees have been there for a while.

Anyways - I found it quite interesting, and thought I'd share.

This is also a really cool behavior to witness.  I wish I was hiking in the mountains and laying under a tree watching bees for a half hour!  It reminds me of John Muir. 

Not sure they get water from their winter honey. Most water comes into a hive in the dilute nectar they collect.
Sealed honey is less than 20% water and if the biologists are to be believed,  bees can only utilise honey at 50% honey/50% water. Above 50% its too concentrated for them to absorb it (something to do with osmotic pressures etc). Capped or stored honey needs to be diluted with water  before bees can metabolise it. One of the first signs of spring in the UK is bees out collecting water to dilute their winter stores into food. We presume that during the depths of winter their is sufficient moisture/condensation within a hive that they have no need to go out collecting.
Although Thomas Sealey has an article originally published in ABJ describing water foraging activity of bees in Scotland in mid winter whenever the temp got up to 5C or above.

That's very interesting, Nigel, I'd never heard about bees not being able to eat straight up capped honey before.  I'll have to see if I can find that Seeley article, I'd like to read more about it.   

[Ben Framed]

Food for thought and fun:
I tend to think, (without research, just a theory), that Nigel is on it.
Let's consider incorporating the line of thinking which we are discussing, adding the mountain camp method of feeding into the equation:
Honey, is usually at or around 17% moisture content which falls closely in line with Nigels' 'rounded off generous figure' of around 20% water/moisture. The way I feed mountain camp, sugar is totally dry when introduced into the hive. The water has to come from somewhere during the non flying time of winter in order for the bees to make use of it, consume and digest it?  Especially if stored honey were to run out, (assuming bees obtain their water from honey), then what? Where does the moisture come from. Wouldn't if have to come from condensation inside the hive as Jim, taught when I first began posting here at beemaster? Which would also explain where the extra 50% needed water for honey consumption as described by Nigel would be found? (That is of course assuming the 50% amount is correct, but really any 'necessary' amount of moisture for that matter no matter the percentage required)?

Reagan let us know what you find with Sealey





 

[CoolBees]

This is also a really cool behavior to witness.  I wish I was hiking in the mountains and laying under a tree watching bees for a half hour!  It reminds me of John Muir. 

It was cool. It took me a while to figure out what they were doing. At first I had "assumptions" about pollen collection  (wrong time of year), some unknown nectar maybe (once again, wrong time of year), sap collection etc. It took a few mins for what I was seeing to sink in past my preconceived notions. ... then I just watched - a little shocked for a while I think.

Interestingly, I wasn't all that far off one of John's trails that he used to hike.

[Ben Framed]

I am going to throw a twist in this. I know nothing of nectar produced by pines. Could it be that nectar eases down the pine needles to the point of easily collection and what we see is actually not just water but actually a nectar substance? I have read that cotton stalks produce a nectar like moisture substance called honey dew, that bees collect to make an excellent honey.
I really don't know. Just more food for thought...

Phillip

[The15thMember]

I am going to throw a twist in this. I know nothing of nectar produced by pines. Could it be that nectar eases down the pine needles to the point of easily collection and what we see is actually not just water but actually a nectar substance?

Not possible.  Pine needles simply do not have nectaries, and if you think about it, it wouldn't makes sense that they would.  Needles are the pine trees' version of leaves, not their version of flowers (that would be cones).  You'd be as like to find a nectary at the base of a pine needle as you would at the base of any leaf.  Many plants, including pines, can and do secrete oils and resins which the bees collect, but nectar is found only in flowers.  Edit: Actually some plants do have extrafloral nectaries, nectar produced outside of flowers, but pine tree aren't one of them.    

I have read that cotton stalks produce a nectar like moisture substance called honey dew, that bees collect to make an excellent honey.
I really don't know. Just more food for thought...

 
Honeydew is actually not a secretion of the cotton itself, but of insects like aphids which feed on cotton (or whatever else they happen to be feeding on).     

[Ben Framed]

Not possible.  Pine needles simply do not have nectaries, and if you think about it, it wouldn't makes sense that they would.

I see your point but does that mean nectar can not be dropped from pine needles?  " Pines don?t have flowers and yet honey can be produced from them. (see honeydew honey)"

Honeydew is actually not a secretion of the cotton itself, but of insects like aphids which feed on cotton (or whatever else they happen to be feeding on).

'How is cotton honey?
It?s a combined honey. Made from the nectar of the flower and also from the honeydew the honey bees find on the plant. Or, as a beekeeper puts it: "Honey bees forage cotton on both its internal and external nectaries."

All from the article below.
How is cotton honey?
https://healthywithhoney.com ? how-is-cotton-honey

[The15thMember]

'How is cotton honey?
It?s a combined honey. Made from the nectar of the flower and also from the honeydew the honey bees find on the plant. Or, as a beekeeper puts it: "Honey bees forage cotton on both its internal and external nectaries."

All from the article below.
How is cotton honey?
https://healthywithhoney.com ? how-is-cotton-honey

The terminology of the phrase is bold is not correct.  It's true that honey bees collect nectar from inter- and extra-floral nectaries on cotton (from nectar producing structures inside and outside the flowers), but nectaries do not produce honeydew, they produce nectar.

This is from Savannah Bee Company:
"Honeydew is a sugary liquid that is produced by aphids when they feed on plant sap or phloem. The aphid's tap into the plants sugary phloem (liquid inside the plants vascular system) with a long, straw-like proboscis. Honeydew is actually the sugary waste product produced by the aphid after feeding on plant phloem.  It falls to the forest floor or onto leaves near by. Certain types of moths, bees and birds will then gather the honeydew. Honeybees use it to create honeydew honey, which is much darker in color and stronger in flavor than honey from nectar. It is less sweet and much more aromatic than typical honey and it commands a high price in certain parts of the world. In the US, we rarely see honeydew honey. However it is much more abundant in Europe."

I see your point but does that mean nectar can not be dropped from pine needles?  " Pines don?t have flowers and yet honey can be produced from them. (see honeydew honey)"

Pine honey is a type of honeydew honey, the bees make it from insects which feed on the pine trees.  Bees, to my knowledge, cannot make honey from pine resin, I'd imagine because its sugar content is too low. They make propolis from it instead. 

From Savannah Bee Co. again:
"Pine honey is a style of honeydew honey commonly found in the Middle East and Greece, however it can be found in Germany and Norway as well. Pine honey is produced when honey bees collect honeydew from insects that live on the sap or phloem of certain species of pine trees. Also called "forest honey" or "manna honey", it is generally much more dense than nectar honeys given its lower water content."

[Ben Framed]

>The terminology of the phrase is bold is not correct.  It's true that honey bees collect nectar from inter- and extra-floral nectaries on cotton (from nectar producing structures inside and outside the flowers), but nectaries do not produce honeydew, they produce nectar.

This is from Savannah Bee Company:
"Honeydew is a sugary liquid that is produced by aphids when they feed on plant sap or phloem. The aphid's tap into the plants sugary phloem (liquid inside the plants vascular system) with a long, straw-like proboscis. Honeydew is actually the sugary waste product produced by the aphid after feeding on plant phloem.  It falls to the forest floor or onto leaves near by. Certain types of moths, bees and birds will then gather the honeydew. Honeybees use it to create honeydew honey, which is much darker in color and stronger in flavor than honey from nectar. It is less sweet and much more aromatic than typical honey and it commands a high price in certain parts of the world. In the US, we rarely see honeydew honey. However it is much more abundant in Europe."



Yes I agree the slain southern phrase might not be the correct scientific name honeydew.😊 Your article does not mention the known ability of cotton to produce nectar externally.  Here is another that I found which states nectar is produced from external and not just of the bloom. I will not use the term Honey Dew lol...

                                                          THE PEACE BEE FARMER
PEACE BEE FARM MASTER BEEKEEPER RICHARD UNDERHILL OF CONWAY, ARKANSAS MUSES ON LIFE WITH THE BEES AND OTHER THINGS.

Cotton is in bloom across the Arkansas Delta. Cotton, grown for fiber, is also an important source of nectar for the production of honey. Honey bees forage cotton on both its internal and external nectaries. Honey bees collect nectar secreted inside the pale yellow flowers on the first day of their bloom. After one day, the flowers change colors, becoming dark pink. The honey bees learn that the change of flower colors means they must move to the external nectaries. The honey bees then collect nectar from the green-colored bracts, leaf-like flower parts on the base of the flower. They also find nectar secreted from the under-side of the leaves. Cotton is a member of the mallow family which includes cultivated hibiscus plants, hollyhock, and okra. Swamp mallow, particularly attractive to bumble bees, is found along the banks of irrigation ditches and bodies of water.

[Ben Framed]

I also agree with you Member about nectar not coming form pines which shoots down the question, the substance that Alan seen might actually be form of nectar. I would not have know if I did not ask. lol Thanks for your research.

"Because they don't have flowers with nectar and pollen, pine trees don't attract bees."
Do Pine Trees Rely on the Wind for Pollination? - Home Guideshttps://homeguides.sfgate.com ? Garden ? Pest Control

[The15thMember]

Yes I agree the slain southern phrase might not be the correct scientific name honeydew.😊 Your article does not mention the known ability of cotton to produce nectar externally.  Here is another that I found which states nectar is produced from external of the bloom. I will not use the term Honey Dew lol...

The article didn't, but I did.

It's true that honey bees collect nectar from inter- and extra-floral nectaries on cotton (from nectar producing structures inside and outside the flowers)

The point I'm trying to make is that pine trees do not have any nectaries.  They wouldn't need to; they are wind-pollinated, so they don't need to attract any insects.  There would be no reason for the plant to possess such a structure or to exert energy producing nectar.

Sorry, we posted at the same time.  I see that we are on the same page.    I think it's great that you ask questions like this, Phillip.  You don't take "just because" for an answer, and I applaud that.  It's a scientific way of thinking, to question everything, and I admire that.         

[Ben Framed]

Sorry, we posted at the same time.  I see that we are on the same page.    I think it's great that you ask questions like this, Phillip.  You don't take "just because" for an answer, and I applaud that.  It's a scientific way of thinking, to question everything, and I admire that. 

Thank you Reagan for you kindness of words. You and I have always "really wanted to know facts on the bottom line". This kind of discussion is what separates the good stuff from fiction and junk! lol and is fun while we learn may I add!! While good observation from our loyal members like Alan feed the knowledge and curiosity..!!

[Oldbeavo]

Ou bees get a drink off the tin lids of the hives after a dewy night.
Water consumption in winter here 10-15C days is very low, 200 hives only using 5-10 liters per day. So they don't need much.

[Acebird]

We presume that during the depths of winter their is sufficient moisture/condensation within a hive that they have no need to go out collecting.

And that moisture / condensation comes from the bees breath as a result of consuming honey.  Nectar would freeze in the winter.  The air is far too dry to get condensation in the winter.  In a lot of areas up north snow actually dries out without melting.

[NigelP]

The air is far too dry to get condensation in the winter.  In a lot of areas up north snow actually dries out without melting.

In some climates perhaps. Here in the UK our winters are mainly cool and damp as opposed to very cold and dry.
Condensation within a hive can be a real problem in winter over here. Open mesh floors were designed to alleviate the problem for many beekeepers. Mine and others experience suggests its the size of the colony and the space it occupies that is one the main factors.E.G a small colony sat in 11 frames will have damp moist sides and end frames, however put that colony inside a nuc and the condensation disappears..or the bees use it up before it's noticeable