Internal regulation in a winter nuc hive

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Beepro, question, what is a ?tf? queen.  I don?t know that abbreviation ?tf.?

Anyway, I wish you luck trying to save the hive.  I would like to more about the queen your trying to save.  I raise queens and enjoy the challenge of grafting for hobby use, just trying to improve or better stated maintain traits of my favorite hives.
Blessings

[beepro]

"Does it matter what I think?"

Definitely, Ace!  I respect and value everybody's input on this forum.  This is how I learn about beekeeping.
The more test I do, the more potential for another similar one.  Somehow they are all connected because one little test, if successful, will lead to
a bigger experiment later on.  An example would be to track 7 nuc hives in a similar dwindling hive situation over an entire winter to see
how they do here.   Then I will have the data to back up my little experiment.    Yes, I agree, I don't have an experiment yet with
only one nuc hive now.  There will be no conclusion drawn until it is a repeatable experiment with the same result.

For now maybe someone with this situation in a similar bee environment can use the information to keep the hive alive.   Doing little test is my way of speeding up the learning process on beekeeping.    Maybe I can save this hive over this winter.   Hive survival come first for now!

[beepro]

Van, even though I only have 5 short season of beekeeping experience, I've learn a lot about beekeeping on nutrition, queen rearing, genetics and now the II process.  I'm fortunate enough to find the many generous mentors with the right information to show me the how to. To further speed up my learning curve I've design many small bee tests on the many related bee topics I want to know more about.  I have also invented my homemade oav gadget to effective kill off the mites. They no longer have to use the oav wand anymore!  After that was done, I realized that the other side of beekeeping does not use any form of chemical treatment for the bees to survive.  Many often mention about the feral bees that do not need any treatment that are still surviving.  So while searching online for queens to buy for my next little bee test, I found this term "tf" or treatment free (queen, bees, or beekeeping) to start my next topic of beekeeping exploration.  In it I have discover the method of mite removal management (IPM) without using any form of chemical.  Simply more time devoted to take out the mites right after the main honey flow.  Because in my local bee environment there are the main Spring flow and a mini-Autumn flow, I take advantage of that to clean off the mites inbetween the two.  On further net research I found that a beekeeper from Canada already discovered this IPM method of mite removal 6 years ago.  He's happy to give presentation about his findings and even wrote a book about his process.  I have not read his book and see what I can discover in my little bee test. It is all about finding a method to keep bees alive until I can find the more resistance genetic.  So far I've stumble on 2 potential queen sources that have compatible tf genetics that I can further explore next season. One source is the Cordovan bees that have 98% purity.  It is good for my new II process to study about bee genetics because majority of my local bees are the carnis out there.  I'm still a student trying to learn more about the tf bees.  And how they can survive our bee environment in case one day I cannot be there to tend to their needs anymore.  Trying to build a sustainable apiary is not that easy these days!  The queen that I try to save now is from a tf source.  I only source queens from tf apiary for my II process because mites and bees test goes hand in hand.   Been going on for 3 seasons already.   

[Acebird]

I found this term "tf" or treatment free (queen, bees, or beekeeping) to start my next topic of beekeeping exploration. 

tf Treatment free is essentially observing a hive in the woods, no intervention, just observing.  ctf Chemical treatment free is having a hive survive without using pesticides.  That is what I am.  Some people in the IPM group use mechanical means to control mites.  Things like SBB, sugar dusting, culling drones, brood breaks, I guess you could include heat treatments and more.  I do a little of this too.  Depending on where you got this tf queen it may not have come from tf stock.  It could just be a marketing spin that you paid a lot of money for.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

95% of my hives have a Cordovan queen.  I have two II instruments: Loc and a Latshaw.  My goal is treatment free in the future; if I can breed true resistant with queens & drones from different hygienic hives.  As you may or may not know inbreeding in honey bees leads to lethal condition.  Just thought I I mention.

I was looking at honey bees Queen adds in a popular bee journal, yesterday.  Almost all adds say the same thing, hygenic or mite resistant queens.  But not a single guarantee of resistance is offered.  A simple question:  why so many mites when almost all major queen producers are selling hygenic queens?  I could answer this question, but I chose not to.
Blessings

[beepro]

I have a method of screening the tf queens that I bought from the tf apiary before using them for the II process.  The drones have to show true resistance first before the semen is collected.  I've also order a centrifuge to consolidate the semen because popping the drones to collect the semen is too time consuming for me.  So I have to invent another more efficient method to collect instead.  I will be doing a series of small test to see which method is the most effective this coming season. I also bought a 10 lbs. CO2 tank connected to the clear small aquarium air hoses.  My first time at the CO2 store, I asked the female clerk do you have the 20 lbs. tank?  The male clerk standing next to her responded, do you want an upgrade now?  Then I told them no no no after picking up the 10 lbs. metal tank.  I would imagine a 20 lbs. tank all fill up will be much more heavier than that.  It will be a long while before I have to refill again.  After 20 II the tank is still very heavy.  I don't bother with the small CO2 cartridges anymore.

My goal is the same as yours.  That is why I've put together my homemade version of the II station using locally sourced materials from the dollar store.  And pick up a humongous glass syringe to hold the collected semen.  Other than the CO2 tank which is the most expensive of all most of the materials for the homemade II station are cheap here.

why so many mites when almost all major queen producers are selling hygenic queens?

If you don't feel comfortable posting about this topic then send me a PM.  I'm happy to hear your version of it.  Ever since going tf for 3 seasons now, following the mites and bees cycle with a small pair of tweezers, I have learn a lot about this issue.  My opinion so far is that the queen producers did not have an isolated yard when they raised these queens.  There are too many variables that the queen producers cannot control.  Their claim of a hygienic queen has not been evaluated yet.  Because on open mating they cannot control the outcome of which drones the queen get to mate with. The neighbor's hives a few miles down the road could be all treated bees with drones going to the local DCAs. This will affect how the bees handle the mites too.

Besides, hygienic is just another tool as part of the total outcome.  Within a batch of open mated queens there are many variation affecting their ability to resist the mites. To get the compatible bees for true resistance you have to pick the right drones and queen also.  Both have to show good sign of resistance in order to produce the next generation of the resistant bees.  That is why you mention about the decline in vigor on II.  To get around this issue I also sourced compatible queens from different apiary through out the bee season.  After evaluation then the queens and drones can be use for II.  It is going to be a long process over several seasons before you will see the final outcome.  If you just randomly pick drones without isolating the resistance genes then the outcome will not be as effective.  I don't want to waste anymore time so will evaluate the bees very carefully before using them. This is what I've learn so far.  The sellers can claim but we have to evaluate them first! 

[beepro]

An update:    Moving the 100 watt black ceramic light bulb closer


Just a small update.  The nightly temp. has now dip down to the 30s.  The bees responded by hoovering closer to
the ceramic light bulb.  Since the start of this little test, I've put the light bulb on the far left side of the hive box.  On night
inspection many of them are next to it to keep themselves warm.   So it was not good that they were away from the
cap broods at night time when it was that cold outside.

So today I put the 100 watt ceramic light bulb right on top of the brood nest.   Tonight on a quick peek I saw that the bees
have all moved to the center of the hive where the cap broods are.  With the nightly temp. so cold and a chance of frost tonight, I
also up the controller setting a bit.   So I set the controller temp. LB at 92.3F and UB at 94F tonight.  Too high a setting will also create a
condition that is too dry inside.  In region with high winter moisture a small ceramic light bulb with lower wattage can solve this issue.   The comb on the frames are drying out leaving a white grayish film.    So to correct this low moisture issue, last night I made a batch of the hydrated water absorbing crystals.  These crystals are also use in the baby diaper.  Then stuff the hydrated crystals in a tube made out of wire window screen and put it inside the hive.   The heat from the light bulb will warm up these crystals releasing more moisture into the hive.  That will solve the low moisture hive condition for now.   So if you are worry about excess moisture inside your hive this winter consider installing a small ceramic light bulb.  Heat and excess moisture will not mix!   My next controller setting will be around the time of the arctic chills which is coming soon.....

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

{I've also order a centrifuge to consolidate the semen because popping the drones to collect the semen is too time consuming for me.}

This process is called ?inverting drones.? 

For CO2, an aquarium CO2 kit with small thread tanks will work.  These CO2 tanks fit in your hand, disposable and are not expensive.

Centrifuge drone semon,,,,,,, forget this, the G force would kill.

II is a delicate process, classes start at over $1,000 a day to be trained by an expert and it usually takes more than a day.  To describe the details of II, is way beyond this forum.  Entire books are written on this subject.

I know all to well,,,,, I and a med. doc, produced and published the first paper on micro-manipulation techniques, bacterial.  My colleges said ?it could not be done.?  Well we succeeded.  I taught these techniques to pathologists.

So I have experience in biological systems, genetics, and delicate equipment, but how can I possiblly explain the details:  oviduct value fold, (the oviductduct has a bend and will tear) aseptic techniques, biological gentle chemicals, ph maintainable buffers.  Are you aware of stretch receptors in the queen oviduct that when activated cause cessation of mating flights by the queen....

There is just so much info my friend.   Better stated II is a delicate involved process.
Good luck.
Blessings

[beepro]

I have to do more small test before concluding that the centrifuge method will not work.  It works on human semen so it might work for
the bee semen too.  This is an exploration topic for me.   Yes, inverting drones is a time consuming
process.  That is why I'm going to try the centrifuge method.  Many people will say it is not going to work like my little test on using the
ceramic light bulb.  Of course, they are not the explorer type like I am.  I'm always on the look out to find better method to improve on my
beekeeping experience.   When others said it cannot be done then I said let me try it first.   Then through a feedback and refining process I can usually find a better solution to obtain the final result.   Sometimes I have to consult others with more experience to give some constructive pointers.  If Edison has this idea that it is not going to work after so many failure on his little test then we will not have the LED light bulb today. Somehow a person with a scientific mind to explore will not think of "it cannot" be done but rather let's see what I can find out.   One new generation of computer will build on the architecture of the last while improving on it.   Think of the Apple computer when it got started compare to today's model.  This is how company is build up and this is how it is already done through II to maintain the resistant genetics.  I already found such beekeepers selling their expensive open mated queens through the II process initially then stabilized it in an isolated mating yard.   All I have to do now is to improve on what they already have in my local DCAs using the II process.   Finding compatible genetics for the improvement is the hardest part now.  Where can I find more resistant bees with compatible genetics?

I will update you on the centrifuge process this season.  All I have to do now is to find a better way to bypass the valve fold.   Thinking of using a tiny wire to push it aside first before inserting the capillary tip.   This is the part that I really have to practice on this coming season.  Because my mentor did not give me much tips on bypassing the valve fold so you tube vids come to the rescue.  I did not have any one-on-one training  on II other than what my mentor taught me through writing.  He also taught me to use the bigger CO2 tank that way I don't have to refill it all the time.  All I have to do is to turn on the small know connected to the tank to use it.   One large tank goes a long way!

[beepro]

Update:   Many bees emerged today


On an early hive check today I found many newly emerged bees from the Nov. cap broods.  The newly emerged bees also free up the
foragers for their normal duty.  No mite to be found.
There are more foragers flying now because we still have nice weather for them to gather from the nearby Loquat trees. 
Some trees are still forming their flower buds now.   This should last until the end of Dec.   And the hive moisture is stabilized now with the water absorbing crystals added.  The comb look normal again as the white film disappeared.  I still have high hopes that this hive will survive. 

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Beepro, I wish you the best of luck.

Some pointers: drones need to be at least 10 days post emerge.  So do not use fuzzies, newly emerged drones.

You will need lure lock syringe barrels 5-20 ml and disposalsble syringe filters 0.2 micron.  This will provide you with sterile solutions.  You will need 1.0 molar fructose, 7 molar nacl, table salt.  The fructose will provide energy to the semen and the queen.  The salt is for sterility, to kill bacteria, the salt must?ve not to touch the semen, just to form a sterile barrier in the needle as an air pocket is between semen and salt.  The salt is expelled between single drone loads.

A new trend is super mated queens.  Pooling semen from 40-50 drones, mixing carefully then disperse 10 ul to a single queen.  A queens spermatheca(holding chamber)  holds 10ul.  Typical queens produce offspring, from about 10-16 dads, producing 10-16 workers, a super mated queen will produce 40-50 different workers.  Diversity with honeybees can be a blessings, Natures way.

However for genetic testing, usually one drone is chosen.  I don?t have the resources for this so I am leaning towards super mated drones.  Venereal disease of honey bees is common, Nosema, chalkbrood, trypanosomes( gut Protozoa) Virus.  So drones from the healthiest hives are essential.

Beepro, how do you select, test drones?  Please advise, Sir.  I have much to learn.
I wish you success, for the bees.  Remember, Obtain syringe barrels and filters, not expensive at all.
Blessings

[beepro]

Like you I still have a lot to learn about beekeeping and explore more on II.
Here is my beekeeping time line so far:
First year kill off 2 aggressive AHB hybrids hives located on top of an ant hill.
Second year started grafting to learn more about the bees without using any type of treatment.
Third year got a hive crashed situation because the hives got over load with mites. At the same time found the mite removal method and started testing on the mites and bees cycle using a pair of small tweezers. 
Fourth year continue to refine my mites and bees cap broods removal method (IPM) with more testing. Success at last!
Fifth year explore on the II process.

"....how do you select, test drones?"

This is the easy part.  One beekeeper that I learn from said if you're going with the tf route then you must obtain breeders from the tf apiary.  This was what I did after the 3rd year hive crash. The next process is going to be much easier.

Since the seller already isolated the tf genetics for me before, all I have to do next is to continue from where they left of using the II process.  All of their bees are from isolated mating station so the drones are 98% pure already.  The other 2% I just don't select these drones for II.  Different drones have different color let's say the Cordovan and the carnis, for example.  So if you want the Cordovan bees then only select the Cordovan drones as they are already stabilized.  And if you want the 2% mixed bees then only select for the grey color drones for your II process.  Then it is evaluation time for mite resistance. 

In a season I can go through 4 generation using the II process to back cross the different lines.  Which ever hives (lines) have the most resistant I will select drones from that line to back cross.  This will further purify the resistant genes on subsequent II generation.  If you find that a lost of vigor is occurring then use compatible bees to diversify your gene pool a bit.  Then start selecting again but make sure that the compatible bees you obtain are also from the tf apiary.  Did you know that after 2 generation you can obtain purity in genetics through II?  Take the Cordovan bees for example.

I'm lucky with only 2 bee species here, the carnis and Cordovan.  I chose the Cordovan because 95% drones in the DCAs are the carnis genetics.   If you choose a melting pot of drones then isolating and stabilizing the resistant bees will take you a long long time. Yes, you might have genetic diversity but how do you know how resistant they are?  Just for isolating this traits will take you along time.  How can you have so much time to evaluate them all once the II is done?  In Europe there was a test done using a single drone for II that carry the VSH genes.  After that they are able to make more VSH bees.  From their success I've learn that first you must isolate the resistant bees then select for the traits that you want to further propagate.  This is where I'm at now.  I saw allogrooming and vsh traits in the heater nuc hive that I'm trying to save now.  It is not the hive that I'm going to use for II but rather it is the compatible bees for back crossing in case the Cordovan lost their vigor down the road.  I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here just simply following what other have success with so far.  Luckily, my II mentor is very close to the owners of a large bee operation.  They taught him the II process and he show me what I need to know.  He also took a hands on class with Sue Cobey.

To further simplify the II process, we use the single use disposable 5 ml .9% sterile saline solution order online.  And no filter use because it is already sterile. If you want to save the semen overnight then use the antibiotic solution.  I order them but did not use since I only harvest enough drones for one day II use.  I just use it to sterile my syring and II instrument.  I also use 90% rubbing alcohol to spray my II station before and after each use.

Because I built my own II station, I don't use the standard instrument like you do.  I made one for less than $100 with parts mostly from the dollar store. Because of this I don't use the luer lock syringe but use the luer slip syringe instead.  They came in 50 per pack order online and not that expensive either. I made 10 syringes at a time for the II process in case of an accident like a broken cap. tip.  More backup is easier on the job after an accident.

Also, the drones have to be 16 days post emergence.  Using drones earlier than that will not produce much semen that I found out.  You can read more about drones and queen selection on the Glenn site.  Drones from day 19 is better I think.  Select the drones that are robust and healthy.  The tiny ones cannot give you much.

The spermatheca can only hold so much semen.  So make sure that the different drones that you use are from the resistant genetics also.  Using different drones from the treated apiary will not give you much success through II.  II is good for isolating traits and genetics (resistance) of the bees.  It will give you bee diversity but not necessary mite resistant because you still have to find and isolate the genes. Can you guarantee that using a diverse drone pool for II will give you resistance?  I rather use the resistant first and then diversify to maintain it through II.   I need to run more test to learn more!

[beepro]

Update:   An Ahh-Ha moment!



Silly me, I forgot about the protein patty subs while watching one of the you tube vids today.  Suddenly I realized that all this time I've been concentrating on feeding the sugar syrup but forgot that bees need their protein source to make broods too.  No wonder the hive is not growing everyday!  Apparently what pollen stores was left inside the nuc hive did not keep up with the feeding.  Now that the hive is dwindling down to one frame of bees there isn't enough foragers to bring in the hive resources and able to maintain the brood nest at the same time in expansion mode.   This is a mistake that I should thought of in the first place.  One silly mistake can set the hive back significantly as the weather is getting colder at night now.   I'm going to drop in a batch of patty subs to see if they can make some broods this time.  Hopefully this will correct this situation.    Remember, syrup and protein have to be  there at all time if you want to make some new bees!

[beepro]

This is bad!


My hive is in a depleted bees situation now.  Too good a flying weather that the foragers died too fast. They have eggs, some cap broods and a live queen.  But the
population is less than 200 bees now.   They can barely keep up with warming themselves at night time.  What is worse, we're in
the beginning of winter with frosty nights.   Not much of the arctic chills yet as that will be in the middle of Jan to early Feb.
I try to keep the ceramic light bulb on constant so that they will not freeze to death.  There are plenty of food for them inside.
Right now I only allow them one hour for cleansing flight every other day.  It is almost like a lock down situation. 
Anybody has a good option of keeping this hive alive until early Spring time?  No more bees to add at this time!

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Beepro, you tried your best.  I am sorry, sounds like the bees will be lost, but not for lack of effort on your part.  I am inspired at your attempts.
Blessings

[Acebird]

I am inspired at your attempts.

Beepro, I am sorry that you are losing the battle but I am also bewildered why someone with such a small apiary would put so much faith in a single queen.  Happy Holidays anyway.

[beepro]

Van, it is not all lost yet.   They are down to 50 or so bees now.  And the queen is still alive.
I have to be a bit creative now by catching feral bees that wander into my apiary with a small fish net. I bait them
with sugar syrup. Then introduce these bees into the hive that is now under quarantine.   If I leave them flying in this nice
warm weather pretty soon there won't be anymore bees to fly.   Then oops, there goes the queen!

"....I am also bewildered why someone with such a small apiary would put so much faith in a single queen."

Brian, I'm trying to save an expensive tf queen.  There will be bees available only if they can hold on for
another month or so.  More bees to catch to keep the queen alive longer when early Spring is here. The only way to save this queen is to introduce her to a nuc hive.   Sadly, during the winter nobody sells nuc here.  :(   But I still have hopes to keep her alive until then!

[BeeMaster2]

Beepro
Bee sure to provide a little bit of water, in a sponge, to the hive. They use it to digest the honey. Make sure it has no contamination or just use a paper towel.
Jim

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Yes, Beepro, best of luck to you.  Please keep us posted; at least a weekly post.  Again, I admire your efforts.
Blessings

[little john]

I have to be a bit creative now by catching feral bees that wander into my apiary with a small fish net. I bait them with sugar syrup. Then introduce these bees into the hive that is now under quarantine.   

To be perfectly blunt, I would describe that as 'pratting about', rather than grasping the nettle and dealing with the problem which is right in front of you.

Earlier in this thread you wrote: "... I am stuck right now.  I don't have bees from another hive to put in this dwindling hive."  and " ... adding bees from another hive is very dangerous at this time because they might ball on this expensive queen too. A risk that I'm not willing to take this winter."

At one point you said you had 200 bees in this ailing nuc.  That wasn't good.  You say there are currently 50.  Now that's a moribund colony if ever I heard of one.

You talk of 'a risk you're not willing to take' - but again being blunt - you have no choice if you wish to save this queen.

What I would do in your place is - on the very next suitable day - shake-off a couple of combs of bees into a nuc box through a queen excluder, and leave the box with it's entrance open so that any mature forager bees can then return to their home hive.  Then, only the younger 'nurse'  bees will remain.  Place your queen into a mailing cage along with a handful of attendants, and place the mailing cage into the nuc in the normal way.  You can check for acceptance easily enough by running a match, toothpick or similar over the cage.  When the 'hedgehog' of bees lift their legs obligingly to allow the toothpick to pass underneath them without any resistance whatsoever, that's a clear sign that they've accepted the queen.  Then, open the cage and allow her out.  Direct release.  Problem solved.

Just ensure that there's adequate honey and/or fondant available. Some pollen wouldn't hurt if you have it, but it's not essential - those bees will be bringing-in pollen soon enough.
 
LJ