Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

MEMBER & GUEST INTERACTION SECTION => THE 2ND AMENDMENT => Topic started by: Dallasbeek on July 01, 2016, 03:42:24 pm

Title: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Dallasbeek on July 01, 2016, 03:42:24 pm
A shooting range in Houston responded to the Orlando terrorist attack by offering free license to carry traing for members of the LGBT community, expecting to get a few dozen applicants.  To their surprise, more than 550 applied and after a big gulp and OMGs, they agreed to hold more than 10 traing sessions (FREE).  This is a family-owned and operated range.  So far, 94% of the applicants have shown up for the training in two class sessions.  This can't help but bring more supportters for the Second Amendment.  And these additional armed citizens may thwart a future attack.  If just half the shooting ranges in the country would follow the example of the Shiloh Shooting Range, it could make a difference.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Michael Bush on July 01, 2016, 07:56:17 pm
Maybe it will bring more people to the Libertarians as well.  The Republicans have not been their friends and the Democrats are not supporters of freedom.  The Libertarians have no anti-gay agenda and no anti-gun agenda... in fact their only "anti" is they are against loss of liberty...
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Eric Bosworth on November 29, 2016, 04:00:22 pm
Maybe it will bring more people to the Libertarians as well.  The Republicans have not been their friends and the Democrats are not supporters of freedom.  The Libertarians have no anti-gay agenda and no anti-gun agenda... in fact their only "anti" is they are against loss of liberty...
What a great comment... Most people are libertarians... They just don't know it.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: iddee on November 29, 2016, 06:30:58 pm
So how many straight people went to the classes for free. Did they have to bring their SO and demonstrate they were qualified? If a range advertised that in this area and I wanted the class, I would go. How are they verifying their status?
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Dallasbeek on November 29, 2016, 08:45:13 pm
Maybe it will bring more people to the Libertarians as well.  The Republicans have not been their friends and the Democrats are not supporters of freedom.  The Libertarians have no anti-gay agenda and no anti-gun agenda... in fact their only "anti" is they are against loss of liberty...
What a great comment... Most people are libertarians... They just don't know it.

Have you ever talked with a "Progressive?". Not one drop of libertarian in a room full of them.  My stepmom is a lifelong "Progressive" and doesn't have a clue about the programs that movement generated.  Look up the history of eugenics and you'll find it originated with the "Progressives" and was adopted by a lovely fellow named Adolf Hitler, who thought it was a great idea.  After they saw their ideas carried to the inevitable end, the "Progressives" dropped eugenics from their agenda.  Thaks, Adolf.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Michael Bush on November 30, 2016, 06:24:49 pm
>If a range advertised that in this area and I wanted the class, I would go. How are they verifying their status?

They are assuming you won't want to be considered gay unless you really are I guess... but verification does seem problematic...
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Hops Brewster on December 02, 2016, 10:50:05 am
Maybe it will bring more people to the Libertarians as well.  The Republicans have not been their friends and the Democrats are not supporters of freedom.  The Libertarians have no anti-gay agenda and no anti-gun agenda... in fact their only "anti" is they are against loss of liberty...
What a great comment... Most people are libertarians... They just don't know it.

Have you ever talked with a "Progressive?". Not one drop of libertarian in a room full of them.  My stepmom is a lifelong "Progressive" and doesn't have a clue about the programs that movement generated.  Look up the history of eugenics and you'll find it originated with the "Progressives" and was adopted by a lovely fellow named Adolf Hitler, who thought it was a great idea.  After they saw their ideas carried to the inevitable end, the "Progressives" dropped eugenics from their agenda.  Thaks, Adolf.
No, they did not drop it from their agenda.  They merely hid it within other "Me First" scams.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Acebird on December 03, 2016, 09:05:47 am
iddee, you can go.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: iddee on December 03, 2016, 09:10:21 am
I'l let you go, Ace. I already have mine.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Acebird on December 03, 2016, 09:27:53 am
If a range advertised that in this area and I wanted the class, I would go.
Who said this?
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Hops Brewster on December 03, 2016, 12:11:04 pm
I am not at all surprised there was a huge response to that store's offer of training.  You likely won't hear anything of this on CNNMSNBCFOXCBSABCBBCNBC; there is an entire subset of liberals that believe in and participate in gun ownership for self defense.  Commonly, these citizens adhere to the left wing party line in everything except gun control.  Many of these people believe that if they want to retain their alternative lifestyle, they must be prepared to defend it. 

I came across this fact about a couple years ago while in a local gun store shopping for reloading supplies.  After I had chosen my components I was wandering around the store to see if I wanted anything else.  I bumped into a local 2A advocate with whom I am acquainted, along with 3 people he was helping to choose personal arms.  These 3 were all transgender.  I became curious and stood by to listen in, I learned that this advocate was giving classes for not only these 3, but dozens of other people in the alternative society. 

I had a chance to talk with Mr. 2A a few months later.  He told me that there are "underground" 2A organizations within the LGBT community all across the country.  Many in these groups are terrified of "coming out" to their liberal friends as 2A supporters.  Some who have let out the secret have been hounded, threatened with death, and beaten for not toeing the leftist line.  But they are determined to never be victims and to take responsibility for their own safety.

I applaud them.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Acebird on December 03, 2016, 02:09:41 pm
there is an entire subset of liberals that believe in and participate in gun ownership for self defense.

I know a lot of liberals and democrats that have no problem with gun ownership whether it is for self defense or not.  Although in my 63 years I have never heard of a case where an individual was successful in protecting themselves with a gun unless it was someone in law enforcement.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: iddee on December 03, 2016, 02:42:45 pm
""If a range advertised that in this area and I wanted the class, I would go.

And who can't read it?
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Dallasbeek on December 03, 2016, 07:15:48 pm
there is an entire subset of liberals that believe in and participate in gun ownership for self defense.

I know a lot of liberals and democrats that have no problem with gun ownership whether it is for self defense or not.  Although in my 63 years I have never heard of a case where an individual was successful in protecting themselves with a gun unless it was someone in law enforcement.

Depends on what you mean by protecting themselves.  I've done it several times that I can think of offhand.  Usually, just letting them know I was armed made them back off.  Only once did I have to point my gun at a man to make him stop beating a woman.  I guess that doesn't count, since I wasn't protecting myself.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: BeeMaster2 on December 03, 2016, 07:15:59 pm
there is an entire subset of liberals that believe in and participate in gun ownership for self defense.

I know a lot of liberals and democrats that have no problem with gun ownership whether it is for self defense or not.  Although in my 63 years I have never heard of a case where an individual was successful in protecting themselves with a gun unless it was someone in law enforcement.

Ace,
The reason you have not heard of it is because the liberal media refuses to put it in the news.
Jim
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Dallasbeek on December 03, 2016, 07:42:01 pm
The other reason is that many successful defenses are never reported to the police.  I know I never told the police and doubt my opponents did (although on one occasion, my opponent was the chief deputy sheriff of the county, who later served time for perjury involving cases in which I was opposing him and his crew in federal court -- and I don't think he filed a formal complaint).

Bad guys don't report things like this to the police and good guys don't need to, unless somebody gets shot.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Dallasbeek on December 03, 2016, 07:51:14 pm
BTW, being a hard-ass cost me a lot of time and money and my crusading endeavors cost what was once a good marriage, so I don't recommend it to anyone. 

There was a day when I made the decision to take on what I felt were bad guys, knowing there was no going back.  After it was all over and my life was a shambles, I moved to another state, started over, stayed away from politics and criminal law and have so far lived a pretty happy life for the last 35 years.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Acebird on December 03, 2016, 08:56:59 pm
So the bottom line is very few people who have guns protect themselves with the gun with out getting their ass in a sling.  Everyone that is a citizen has the right to have a gun but when it comes to using it on another human being the laws get muddy and the result is not so black and white.  I rest my case.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Hops Brewster on December 03, 2016, 09:03:48 pm
there is an entire subset of liberals that believe in and participate in gun ownership for self defense.

I know a lot of liberals and democrats that have no problem with gun ownership whether it is for self defense or not.  Although in my 63 years I have never heard of a case where an individual was successful in protecting themselves with a gun unless it was someone in law enforcement.
If you have never heard of a case of anyone successfully defending themselves with a gun you are either not paying attention or intentionally ignoring the stories you do hear.  It happens much, much more that you claim to think.  Every single day.  My ex-wife is one of those people who successfully defended herself with a gun.  The MSM is loathe to report successful stories, and they are quick to scream out their reports of a defensive failure, however, if you make a basic google search you WILL easily find many stories in the local news purveyors of common citizens successfully defending themselves and/or family or friends with a gun.
You must also accept the fact that most defensive uses of a gun do NOT result in a shooting, and so will not be reported to the police or to the news. 
Here, a favor to you. The search engine took .35 seconds to find a pile of recent stories from around the country. I picked one at random for you to "hear about".
http://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/police-gwinnett-homeowner-shoots-and-kills-intruder/0AZEvV1Kuecf3COXzvdk7K/
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Hops Brewster on December 03, 2016, 09:12:31 pm
Here's one where no one got shot;
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=24585827

There are stories like these all over the place, for those with eyes.  Shall I continue to bring you more, or shall I rest my case? 
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: iddee on December 03, 2016, 09:16:13 pm
You need to rest your case, as you don't seem to comprehend English. What Dallas is trying to tell you, a gun is used for self protection 1000 times or more without firing it for each time it is used by firing it. As for you never hearing of a case, maybe you could google George Zimmerman. It may jog your memory. If not for the anti gunners, he would have walked away clean, as he should have. With the help of anti gunners, he was nearly railroaded. That kind of situation is exactly why we want guns fully legalized and left alone.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Hops Brewster on December 03, 2016, 09:21:53 pm
So the bottom line is very few people who have guns protect themselves with the gun with out getting their ass in a sling.  Everyone that is a citizen has the right to have a gun but when it comes to using it on another human being the laws get muddy and the result is not so black and white.  I rest my case.
Actually, the laws are generally very clear.  And it is very unlikely that you will get your tail in a sling if you are actually defending yourself or a defenseless person whose life is in danger.  It's a different story if one injects himself into a situation, playing cop, or shoots a fleeing bad guy. Your conclusion is based solely on one man's experience, an experience which you were given very little information to form a conclusion.
You have made no case to rest.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Acebird on December 04, 2016, 08:40:36 am
Really? Shooting someone when they are running away.  That don't work too well up here.  In both cases a simple dog is enough of a deterrent and better at chasing someone down when they are naked.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Michael Bush on December 04, 2016, 09:12:34 am
>I have never heard of a case where an individual was successful in protecting themselves with a gun unless it was someone in law enforcement.

I've never SHOT anyone, but I have successfully used a gun to protect myself on four occasions.  It usually doesn't require shooting someone to be a deterrent to violence.  I've know a LOT of people who have successfully protected themselves with a gun and only one of them shot the person.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Acebird on December 04, 2016, 09:51:42 am
Folks we live in very different parts of the country and that influences the thinking about guns.  In your neck of the woods people are spread out and more by themselves and it might be 1/2 hr to an hour response from law enforcement when they are needed.  I live in a area with thousands and thousands of people around with three law enforcement agencies to respond.  We are allowed to have hand guns but thankfully not everyone does.  Maybe you can understand that it is not in the best interest for law enforcement if there is a bunch of pistol Pete's around at every crime scene.  What happens here is guns get stolen, family members get hurt by accident, and domestic disputes escalate when guns are around.  The laws are different from state to state for good reason and the laws differ again when you get into metropolitan areas like the big apple.
I am not against guns.  Far from it.
To me it is like dog ownership.  It is not the dog's fault it is the owner.  I see the very same thing with guns.  I wish it weren't the case.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Acebird on December 04, 2016, 10:06:55 am
It's a different story if one injects himself into a situation, playing cop, or shoots a fleeing bad guy.

So in your second example if the naked guy pulled the trigger as he said he was going to do then he becomes a criminal.  There is no way to know if this man he overpowered was a harmless mental person that the state has dumped on the streets over the last 20 years.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Psparr on December 04, 2016, 11:42:30 am
And a whole mess more.
http://crimeresearch.org/2016/09/uber-driver-in-chicago-stops-mass-public-shooting/
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Hops Brewster on December 04, 2016, 05:39:22 pm
Really? Shooting someone when they are running away.  That don't work too well up here.  In both cases a simple dog is enough of a deterrent and better at chasing someone down when they are naked.
What the devil are you talking about?!? Didn't you read a single word?
Of COURSE shooting a retreating BG is a bad idea, no one has ever suggested any different. But blasting the SOB when he is shooting at you is a GOOD idea, and is very legal, even in the Soviet of New York.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Hops Brewster on December 04, 2016, 06:04:02 pm
Folks we live in very different parts of the country and that influences the thinking about guns.  In your neck of the woods people are spread out and more by themselves and it might be 1/2 hr to an hour response from law enforcement when they are needed.  I live in a area with thousands and thousands of people around with three law enforcement agencies to respond.  We are allowed to have hand guns but thankfully not everyone does.  Maybe you can understand that it is not in the best interest for law enforcement if there is a bunch of pistol Pete's around at every crime scene.  What happens here is guns get stolen, family members get hurt by accident, and domestic disputes escalate when guns are around.  The laws are different from state to state for good reason and the laws differ again when you get into metropolitan areas like the big apple.
I am not against guns.  Far from it.
To me it is like dog ownership.  It is not the dog's fault it is the owner.  I see the very same thing with guns.  I wish it weren't the case.
You described your area as a hell-hole where responsible, honest and free citizens do not exist.  You state that you are  "not against guns.  Far from it",   Yet you have not made a single statement in this forum that I can find which demonstrates that you are far from being anti-gun.  Exactly the opposite.  You're fast with your false assumptions, and even faster with your tired, worn out old anti-gun clich?s.  You live in a bubble, where you expect the government to save you from the bad guys and to tell you how to think, and to protect you from yourself.  You think it takes a half hour for police to reach me, assuming I live 30 miles from the nearest village. In fact, 911 response in my town is less than 5 minutes.  Just enough time to die.   You live in a bubble where the government has trained you that you will be prosecuted if you defend your own life and property, that you must trust them to get there just in time to conduct the investigation if you're murdered.   You have no concept of what the world is like outside of your protective bubble.  And you living so near the birthplace of the American Revolution, that is a travesty.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Dallasbeek on December 04, 2016, 07:15:30 pm
"When there are seconds between life and death, the police are only minutes away."
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Psparr on December 04, 2016, 08:08:56 pm
I just wanted to chime in and say I really enjoy these conversations. It's fun to debate differing points of view.
So let's keep it going!
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: gww on December 04, 2016, 08:23:59 pm
I knew a guy that shot a guy in the butt while he was running away.  He told me he told the cops he had been robbed three times and was tired of it.  They aparently didn't do anything to him cause he moved out of the city and lived in a small town and was appointed the town judge for their small court.  He was a gun collector and had a pretty interesting collection though that was back in the late 80s and if you ask me about spicific guns, I was just sitting here trying to remember them and am drawing a blank.  Mostly I reamember the feeling of thinking they were pretty cool but must be getting old because the individual items are not coming back.
I am guessing the cops must have agreed that it was a bad guy that he shot cause he apparently wasn't a felon with all his guns and his openness of telling his story.

I did believe what he told me.

I did know another guy that killed a guy through a bathroom door.  He didn't get in trouble but I do think it screwed up his mind a bit.

I knew another guy that shot a guy in his house and did serve some time for it. 

Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Acebird on December 05, 2016, 08:30:51 am
You described your area as a hell-hole where responsible, honest and free citizens do not exist.  You state that you are  "not against guns.  Far from it", ...

Wow.  Apparently you see what you want to see.  I am not against guns.  There is one in my bedroom closet right now.  It belongs to my wife and she is a bleeding heart liberal to the Nth degree.  When I was younger I had a double barrel shot gun.  I no longer have a need for it.
I believe certain types of guns should be registered and even permitted.  I have a hard time seeing what the objection to that is and it is in no way an infringement of the second amendment.  This fear of the "government" (we are the government) is blown out of proportion.  Governments have rules to protect it's citizens.  We have a say in how that is done.  The individuals desires are not as important as the majority in our society.  Keep in mind that it is not the government that is asking for gun laws it is the people.  The people will rule in the end.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: iddee on December 05, 2016, 08:49:19 am
Items that should require background checks and permits......

Hammers
Knives
Chain saws
 Ball bats
Tire irons
Shovels
Ax or hatchet
Bow and arrow
Short lengths of chain
Bar stools
Guns
Large walking sticks
and any other normal daily use tools that can be used as a weapon.

Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Dallasbeek on December 05, 2016, 10:23:50 am
"The individuals desires are not as important as the majority in our society."


The majority would not burn an American flag (except as provided for an old, tattered, soiled flag), but despite Donald Trump's belief, the Supreme Court has ruled burning a flag is protected under the First Amendment.  There are all kinds of things like that that are protected under the Constitution that are unpopular with the majority of people.  What you suggest is mob rule.

Every totalitarian regime has first had gun registration, then gun seizure, then absolute power.  That's the kind of thing the framers of the Constitution sought to avoid.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Psparr on December 05, 2016, 10:54:10 am
"The individuals desires are not as important as the majority in our society"

Communist much?
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Hops Brewster on December 05, 2016, 11:39:26 am
You described your area as a hell-hole where responsible, honest and free citizens do not exist.  You state that you are  "not against guns.  Far from it", ...

Wow.  Apparently you see what you want to see.  I am not against guns.  There is one in my bedroom closet right now.  It belongs to my wife and she is a bleeding heart liberal to the Nth degree.  When I was younger I had a double barrel shot gun.  I no longer have a need for it.
I believe certain types of guns should be registered and even permitted.  I have a hard time seeing what the objection to that is and it is in no way an infringement of the second amendment.  This fear of the "government" (we are the government) is blown out of proportion.  Governments have rules to protect it's citizens.  We have a say in how that is done.  The individuals desires are not as important as the majority in our society.  Keep in mind that it is not the government that is asking for gun laws it is the people.  The people will rule in the end.
The majority of people DO NOT want more gun control.  I repeat, you live in a bubble.  You live in the shadow and legacy of the Sullivan act, you have been raised to believe that asking the government's permission to exercise a right is normal.  It is not normal! Requiring permits, and even registration is the epitome of infringement!   I once worked to help a liberal democrat get elected.  I learned my lesson fast and never repeated that mistake.   So what?  The fact that you "once owned a shotgun" does not impress me.   Now you are a defenseless victim.

That your wife has a dusty, unused old weapon in the back of a closet is practically irrelevant.  My point is that it is your current actions and statements that matter most. I can't understand how you can claim to be in favor of an unalienable right, and in the same breath call for restrictions, conditions and permits to be imposed on that right.  That is calling for infringement.  I can not comprehend your total, unflagging faith and trust in your totalitarian Rulers. That is the mindset of a Subject, not a Citizen.

A healthy distrust of government is at the heart of liberty.  No man is free that relies upon the government to regulate his daily affairs and person.  A free man must be trusted to be responsible for his personal security.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Dallasbeek on December 05, 2016, 11:50:49 am
The majority of pathetic, brainwashed, dependent, mindless, clueless ciphers may, indeed, want gun control, Hops.  Free men (and women) want no part of it.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Hops Brewster on December 05, 2016, 11:57:19 am
Dallas, I understand your statement, but if the majority wanted more control, there would be more control, but it has been voted down time and time again all over the country,  In fact, many states have been expanding CCW laws and removing old restrictions.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Dallasbeek on December 05, 2016, 12:14:39 pm
Just shows there are more free men and women than that other kind.

Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Hops Brewster on December 05, 2016, 12:15:34 pm
@Acebird, I want to amend my previous post to you.  I believe it is a good thing that there is a gun in your home.  I would not wish that to be different.  What I would wish for, is that you and your wife be proficient with it.  Shooting is a perishable skill.  Proficiency requires practice.  If you don't already, I urge you both to practice often.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Dallasbeek on December 05, 2016, 12:37:40 pm
Even Vermont, which is represented in the United States Senate by that lovable Socialist Bernie, allows open or concealed carry without a permit.  New Hampshire requires a permit only if you're in a motor vehicle.  I find it remarkable that these liberal-leaning states have such enlightened views on firearms.  Maybe it's a carryover from being at the heart of the Revolution?  Their citizens helped throw off the yoke of a tyrant and somehow the they want to "live free or die," as New Hampsire's motto proclaims?
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Acebird on December 05, 2016, 01:22:47 pm
I believe it is a good thing that there is a gun in your home.

It is a small caliber rifle.  You don't need to be proficient at close range and with a double barrel shotgun you don't even need bullets because it is kinda hard to miss at 10 ft or less and a criminal is not going to ask if it is loaded.  However for personal protection I prefer dogs because they can smell a bad guy from 100 yards.  There is no way one is going to break into the house while we are there.  And if we are not there and the perpetrator survives it is law enforcement's job to chase them down with their guns.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Michael Bush on December 05, 2016, 01:24:35 pm
>Items that should require background checks and permits......

You left off:

Baseball bats
Golf clubs

also in 2012 13 people were murdered by drowning... so we need more water control...

and of course the most common weapon used in violent crime, knives...
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Michael Bush on December 05, 2016, 01:56:43 pm
I was curious how many people are beaten to death by golf clubs and in trying to find that answer, over and over I see two things:

1) Gun control opponents saying that hammers and baseball bats kill more people than RIFLES.
2) Gun control advocates saying that gun control opponents are saying that hammers and baseball bats kill more people than GUNS and then calling them liars.

Nothing quite like being misquoted and then have that misquote called a lie... of course it's a lie!  You made it up!
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Dallasbeek on December 05, 2016, 03:29:10 pm
A study at Johns Hopkins revealed that medical errors are the third leading cause of death each year in the U.S., behind cancer and heart attacks, with more than 250,000 deaths a year attributable to medical error (another interesting term is " medical misadventure").   We can't outlaw cancer or heart attacks.  Maybe we could outlaw doctors, nurses, hospitals?  Seriously, if the medical profession stripped all the "doctor dirtyfingers" of their licenses, it might cut down on the death toll. 
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: gww on December 05, 2016, 03:46:48 pm
Dallas
I think your priorities are mixed up, it is not about saving people it is about saving money.  The push is always to stop or put limits on what doctor dirty finger has to pay through the courts when he gets caught.  How could you get this so confused (just jokeing, you made a good post).
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Kathyp on December 06, 2016, 12:01:51 am
Quote
around with three law enforcement agencies to respond.

Key word = respond

Quote
This fear of the "government" (we are the government) is blown out of proportion.  Governments have rules to protect it's citizens.

We are not the government.  As I believe I pointed out to you before, that's a communist idea.  We hire the government.  They are (supposed to be) our employees. 
governments have rules because that's how they control the masses.  Are you happy to have your government doing all it's been doing to "protect you"?  Been through TSA lately?

Quote
"The individuals desires are not as important as the majority in our society."

Depends.  If you want a place that is a democracy and rules are made for all by the majority....In our case, we have one over-riding law and that is the constitution.  All powers not given to the government by it, are left to the states and the people.  At least that was the design.  We have government by representation so that we do not have a majority rules mob deciding what they want all of us to do. 

Think about how different things would be if we really had majority rule....Most of the things the left holds dear are not that popular with the masses.  Even though there are a lot of people who vote for democrats, when you put questions to them without them knowing which party generally supports what, most people are more conservative than they know. 
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Acebird on December 06, 2016, 09:25:42 am
most people are more conservative than they know.

You are absolutely right Kathy.  My wife is very conservative and a bleeding heart liberal.  Imagine the conflict.
I don't know how people can equate mob rule to majority rule.  Mob rule is Putin.  Something Trump learned from him.  Oppressive dictator who gives orders to the pawns below to exercise his rules.  Majority rule is people thinking for themselves and voting for what they want not necessarily what the party wants.
You don't like the TSA?  How do you envision TSA with Trumps walls in the future?
When Trump removes every restriction on gun control who do you think will have the greatest fire power, law abiding citizens, terrorist, mobs, or criminals in general?  Will it be up to the gun owning citizens to secure, schools, public buildings, mass transit, businesses, and your neighbors?  Sorry but that doesn't give me a good warm and fuzzy.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Michael Bush on December 06, 2016, 10:06:40 am
>I don't know how people can equate mob rule to majority rule. 

How would you distinguish the two?  They are exactly the same thing.  Here's how Majority rule plays out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arginusae
http://branemrys.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-aftermath-of-arginusae.html

They end up killing their best leaders and generals because of emotional reactions to the loss of life from a storm.  But it was pure democracy... later they vote to have Socrates drink hemlock and die.  It was majority rule...  Democracy is organized mob rule.  It's why our forefathers did not set up a democracy and often warned against it and instead set up a republic.

Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Kathyp on December 06, 2016, 12:22:01 pm
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You are absolutely right Kathy.  My wife is very conservative and a bleeding heart liberal.  Imagine the conflict.
I don't know how people can equate mob rule to majority rule.  Mob rule is Putin.  Something Trump learned from him.  Oppressive dictator who gives orders to the pawns below to exercise his rules.  Majority rule is people thinking for themselves and voting for what they want not necessarily what the party wants.
You don't like the TSA?  How do you envision TSA with Trumps walls in the future?
When Trump removes every restriction on gun control who do you think will have the greatest fire power, law abiding citizens, terrorist, mobs, or criminals in general?  Will it be up to the gun owning citizens to secure, schools, public buildings, mass transit, businesses, and your neighbors?  Sorry but that doesn't give me a good warm and fuzzy.

No, Putin is a dictator.  There is no will of the masses with him. 

I envision private security doing the job.  there is no good reason to have a massive government agency doing it.  The tech is the same, the rules are the same, the cost is not with TSA.

Terrorists and criminal already have that firepower.  No laws are followed by them no matter how restrictive they may be. 
While I know we may have forgotten how things are supposed to work after 8 years of Obamas pen and phone, laws are legislative matters.  The legislative branch of government is congress.  The SCOTUS has already left most gun regulation to the states.  That said, the SCOTUS has also left open the door to demand that what one states licences, other states may be forced to accept.  Thank you liberals, because if Trump does the one thing he's talked about with guns and gets CC permits extended to all states, I'll be quite happy with that.   I doubt it will happen.

It should give you warm fuzzies to have your law abiding neighbors armed and ready.  They may be your first line of defense while you wait for your 3 police agencies to respond.

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How would you distinguish the two?  They are exactly the same thing.  Here's how Majority rule plays out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arginusae
http://branemrys.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-aftermath-of-arginusae.html

don't even have to go back that far.  Check Paris and the french revolution.  The French had a populist temper tantrum and the aftermath was the result of the will of the masses. 

Ace, we have one thing that is different than all other countries and that is a constitution that is inviolate, no matter who is in office.  If we can keep the courts from destroying it, its very design is to keep us from both mob rule and the will of a dictator. 




Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Hops Brewster on December 07, 2016, 10:52:12 am
I believe it is a good thing that there is a gun in your home.

It is a small caliber rifle.  You don't need to be proficient at close range and with a double barrel shotgun you don't even need bullets because it is kinda hard to miss at 10 ft or less and a criminal is not going to ask if it is loaded.  However for personal protection I prefer dogs because they can smell a bad guy from 100 yards.  There is no way one is going to break into the house while we are there.  And if we are not there and the perpetrator survives it is law enforcement's job to chase them down with their guns.
I would hate to get shot by a small caliber rifle.  Even a .22LR can be fatal with a well placed shot.  Proficiency.
The myth of shotguns being error-free at 10 yards is just  that, a myth.  at that range the shot spread is still rather narrow.  Proficiency IS required, even with a shotgun!  Besides, you said you "used to have a shotgun".  Where is it now?   A double barrel?  What if there were 3 BGs?  What if there were 2 and your first shot missed?  What if there was only1 BG and you're using quail shot?  You're very possibly the dead husband of a dead woman.

You are assuming that the BG is thinking rationally, while chances are that he is very irrational.  Very likely the BG is high.  He very possibly has a gun, too.  He has also heard of the myth that an empty gun is supposed to be scary.  His gun is loaded.  A meth-head can get to you in less time than it takes for you to load the thing.   He can get to you even before you take the safety off, if you're frozen with fear.  It is foolish of anyone to rely upon a display of falsehood when the life of your loved ones and yourself are on the line.  It might work, but it might not.  You're gambling life and the cards are stacked against you.

I also have a dog.  A large, very faithful hunting dog with lots of big, healthy teeth and loud, fierce bark.  He's part of my security system.  But only part of it.  You see, dogs are mortal beings, too.  The are subject to the same laws of nature that you and I are.   They can make errors.  They can be fooled.  They can be afraid or timid.  They can be killed. 

A loaded weapon in my proficient hands gives me a fighting chance.  An unfamiliar, empty .22LR in your hands is quite possibly a club that will be taken from you and used to beat you, your wife, and your dog over the head, to die long before the police get there to file a murder report.
Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Hops Brewster on December 07, 2016, 10:59:35 am
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Title: Re: Free training for LGBT
Post by: Michael Bush on December 08, 2016, 09:01:01 am
In my experience a long gun is a very poor self defense weapon.  It is too easy for the bad guy to grab the barrel and then you are in a wrestling match.  Also, there is no way to keep it discreetly available while not escalating a situation.  You can have a pistol behind your back or in your waistband (also behind your back) and only bring it into a situation if it gets out of hand.  A rifle or shotgun instantly escalates the situation into a life and death one.  Often the person you are confronting is drunk or stoned and they are much easier to reason with if you don't have a gun in the situation, but if you can't reason with them, the gun may be the only way to reason with them.