Cider's ?safer? gun free home.

[Acebird]

Those things that held us together regardless of our political ideology are gone and it is the left that has destroyed them.

If you come to a conversation pointing fingers what do you expect?  That is like saying all divorces are a result of one person.

The unfortunate thing is tragedies bring people together.  Wars where we were attacked bring people together (none since WW2).  So I guess we need more tragedies and wars.  We will just have to wait until Putin or the nut in Korea shoots something at us.

[iddee]

"Who's hypocritical?  He got impeached didn't he?"

Impeached only means tried. He didn't get convicted nor punished, even tho he admitted wrongdoing, and it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. How much more politically biased can you get?

[cidersabuzzin]

To an ostrich with it's head in the sand.  You already admitted he is immoral.

By my standards, he has committed immoral acts.  If we made lists of those presidents who have and those who have not done the same, the have not list would be shorter.  Most of us understand this and know we are not hiring a celibate clergy member as president.  Not an excuse for immorality, but a recognition that SH and they are human.

Probably have asked before, but please list the thinks you think he has said or done that point to him being a white supremacist?  My take on this is that it is the left screaming RACIST as they always do when someone on the right does something they don't like. 

No doubt in my mind that they are equally tired of your spin.

The comment was mine.  I will talk to someone all day and all night if we are having a conversation that is rational and factual.  What I am getting from my leftist friends is hate filled crap.  It is not factual, civil, or anything on which a dialogue can be built.  And in the next breath they accuse anyone who disagrees with them as being divisive, RACIST, or whatever other leftist tag lines come to mind at the moment.
This is what has put me off even trying to have that dialogue.  While I agree that conversation is important and sharing points of view is important, I have become convinced that the left does not feel the same.  We have reached that divide that has been coming for a long time and there is no cure for it. 

Those things that held us together regardless of our political ideology are gone and it is the left that has destroyed them.  I see no future for a united country.

So what do you see, a civil war and the country split? After a split what would be left of the country? Arms after all have moved on somewhat. What is surely needed is a rise of the centre ground to leave the left and right zealots behind to fight it out amongst themselves.
cider 

[Ben Framed]

quoting cider

''So what do you see, a civil war and the country split? After a split what would be left of the country? Arms after all have moved on somewhat. What is surely needed is a rise of the centre ground to leave the left and right zealots behind to fight it out amongst themselves.
cider ''

What I see is the country is split already. We in America are now in a time of reprieve. Our economy is booming, oil, coal, and natural gas industries are thriving, making energy, (the ability to do work). Our industries are once again on the move. Our farmers are producing crops and are thriving.  Things are once again on the move and folks are on the go. This is once again a Nation who is making, against all odds, a substantial comeback. But, the folks on the left are so brainwashed, blinded, or just don't care, All they seem to see is hate, hate put out by the propaganda of the New World Order by whatever means or tools the leaders can find or use, which may be handy for their agenda, to divide AMERICANS.  I have heard it said hate is blind. I now see it. Just look at the shape this country was in up until this last Presidential election. Most on the left and, many powerful leaders on the right, had us going down a one way road, leading to a DEAD end, over a cliff scenario, which lead straight to a bottomless pit, hypothetically speaking.  How quickly this generation of people forget, or are blind, or perhaps brainwashed, or simply just do not care........   YET
A cilvil war would mean every American looses. There will be no winner here. The winner will be ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT.  The World Order hates the values of America and its God fearing base, which has protected the rights of ones that do now even agree with said. Hates also Americas Freedom Proclaiming Constitution.  No Cider, it will not be the extreme left and extreme right that fight it out. It will the America hating world order pitched in with the left that fight it out with every one else and AMERICA will be theirs. The winner Will be the World Government aka United Nations, or vise versa; unless; God himself intervenes.  The looser will be the Right and Left, all Americans, as all who are left will be slaves to the NEW WORLD ORDER. This stated is my opinion weather agreed or not.

[cidersabuzzin]

quoting cider

''So what do you see, a civil war and the country split? After a split what would be left of the country? Arms after all have moved on somewhat. What is surely needed is a rise of the centre ground to leave the left and right zealots behind to fight it out amongst themselves.
cider ''

What I see is the country is split already. We in America are now in a time of reprieve. Our economy is booming, oil, coal, and natural gas industries are thriving, making energy, (the ability to do work). Our industries are once again on the move. Our farmers are producing crops and are thriving.  Things are once again on the move and folks are on the go. This is once again a Nation who is making, against all odds, a substantial comeback. But, the folks on the left are so brainwashed, blinded, or just don't care, All they seem to see is hate, hate put out by the propaganda of the New World Order by whatever means or tools the leaders can find or use, which may be handy for their agenda, to divide AMERICANS.  I have heard it said hate is blind. I now see it. Just look at the shape this country was in up until this last Presidential election. Most on the left and, many powerful leaders on the right, had us going down a one way road, leading to a DEAD end, over a cliff scenario, which lead straight to a bottomless pit, hypothetically speaking.  How quickly this generation of people forget, or are blind, or perhaps brainwashed, or simply just do not care........   YET
A cilvil war would mean every American looses. There will be no winner here. The winner will be ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT.  The World Order hates the values of America and its God fearing base, which has protected the rights of ones that do now even agree with said. Hates also Americas Freedom Proclaiming Constitution.  No Cider, it will not be the extreme left and extreme right that fight it out. It will the America hating world order pitched in with the left that fight it out with every one else and AMERICA will be theirs. The winner Will be the World Government aka United Nations, or vise versa; unless; God himself intervenes.  The looser will be the Right and Left, all Americans, as all who are left will be slaves to the NEW WORLD ORDER. This stated is my opinion weather agreed or not.

Time to calm down Ben, what has the UN got to do with this? My question was to Kathy re "I see no future for a united country" was she forecasting civil war, a no win no win situation which would end up with an authoritarian government after the war was over. Time to dig a foxhole in the back woods.
Still think you need to see the centre rise (after all I believe most Americans are of a moderate, decent, law abiding disposition) I suppose its all about candidates. Someone who will not pander to the left or right.

[iddee]

""Someone who will not pander to the left or right.""

Add "far" and I agree totally. FAR left or right will never be successful. Like Cider and I, all have to give in just a bit.

[Ben Framed]

""Someone who will not pander to the left or right.""

Add "far" and I agree totally. FAR left or right will never be successful. Like Cider and I, all have to give in just a bit.

Oh I am calm Cider. Just saddened to see my countries citizens so blinded by hate.  I also agree with you two that it would be good if the middle would rise up and vote in sanity.  And really that is what has already happened during the last election. The folks in the middle, the sober minded Americans rose up, elected neither the far left candidates nor the far right candidates which were running. Americans took a chance and voted for a non politician , a man who promised to leave his lushest way of life in order to take on the many great problems here in America. A person who promised to do his best to help EVERY American have a better chance of prospering, and at the same time honoring our Constitution. Yet The left now calls such Americans, in the middle Deplorables, Racist, Nazis, Even our kids whom we love dearly are attacked by the left, some, while on a once in a life time class trip visiting our Nations Capital.  Young patriotic students who love America, simply for wearing a cap that says Make America Great Again were demonized by the leftist. This saddens me. I DO NOT want to see a even a scratch on anyone, be he from the left or right. Unfortunately, the Powers behind the scenes will not let up. I love my country and ALL it?s citizens and am saddened to see my fellow AMERICANS pitted against one another like game roosters at a gamecock fight,  for the pleasure and greed of the extremely powerful, behind the scenes, world leaders. I am not upset but saddened. I certainly hope there will be no such war, It is my hope the New World Order will he stopped. And it (seems) there is only one fleshly man who has the chance to do this. And to be honest I do not put an overly amount of faith in him. There is only one that can be trusted and he is the King of kings and Lord of lords.

[Acebird]

I also agree with you two that it would be good if the middle would rise up and vote in sanity.  And really that is what has already happened during the last election. The folks in the middle, the sober minded Americans rose up, elected neither the far left candidates nor the far right candidates which were running. Americans took a chance and voted for a non politician , a man who promised to leave his lushest way of life in order to take on the many great problems here in America.

Man I don't know what you are smoking Ben but I could enjoy a puff.

[BeeMaster2]

Ace,
Ben is as clearheaded as ever. He is just speaking the truth.
Just look at how many people are back at work. Some day, you will wake up and say how did I ever believe all of that nonsense the media was spouting?
Jim Altmiller

[Ben Framed]

I also agree with you two that it would be good if the middle would rise up and vote in sanity.  And really that is what has already happened during the last election. The folks in the middle, the sober minded Americans rose up, elected neither the far left candidates nor the far right candidates which were running. Americans took a chance and voted for a non politician , a man who promised to leave his lushest way of life in order to take on the many great problems here in America.

Man I don't know what you are smoking Ben but I could enjoy a puff.

I noticed that you did exactly as the leftist media does when quoting anyone who does not agree with their agenda. They pick and choose and edit.  Ace, your sure left yourself wide open for what I could say, I?m still chuckling..  Thanks for the private laugh.
Phillip

Ace,
Ben is as clearheaded as ever. He is just speaking the truth.
Just look at how many people are back at work. Some day, you will wake up and say how did I ever believe all of that nonsense the media was spouting?
Jim Altmiller

Poor Ace, I hope he will Jim.

[iddee]

Ace is like Cider. He learned the truth long ago, but is just too proud to admit it. I've seen a few times he "almost" let it out.

[Kathyp]

"I see no future for a united country"

Those things that held us together regardless of our political ideology are gone and it is the left that has destroyed them.

If you come to a conversation pointing fingers what do you expect?

In many ways we already have a civil war.  We'll see what happens in Portland next weekend.  We have groups of people who feel comfortable violently forcing other groups of people to conform to their way of thinking.  Portland is a small scale example of ideological upheaval and on a larger scale, we have seen the results around the world.  None of those results ended up well for the countries. 

Now, to the second bit:  Regardless of right or left, I think most of us agree that society on many levels is crumbling.  Why?  Because foundations are crumbling.  Why?  Because leftist ideology destroys foundations.  They redefine everything from family to gender.  Each society is built on certain things and those things must remain more or less constant.  You can make adjustments around the edges, but wnen you undermine the base, the whole thing loses stability.  Here we are. 

[Michael Bush]

It's obvious that mass shootings are CAUSED by gun free zones.  Every one of them has taken place in a gun free zone.  The culpable parties are the ones that keep the people unarmed so that mass shooters can kill them with impunity until the police show up, and the news media who make them famous, and the pharmaceutical companies who won't admit that the SUI are the cause of this behavior and the doctors who keep handing it out like candy...

[Live Oak]

It would seem that 99% of "Amerika" just does NOT "get it".  I totally agree with Micheal on the "Gun Free" (read "predator/murderer empowerment zones").  Patrice Lewis recently wrote a very on point article in the WND that hits the nail square on the head but due to our squeamish communist cultural "values" does not drive it down flush. 

https://www.wnd.com/2019/08/why-the-mass-shootings-will-continue/

I suppose and for politically correct pressures on her the other part that should go along with her excellent article is that none of us should be living in a feral world.  The world I long for and I DO realize will probably NEVER happen is the one where I can staple a $100 bill to my fence and it would stay there until the weather and nature dissolved it.  A world where I can leave my key in the ignition of my truck, leave my doors unlocked, my gates unlocked, our children can play on their OWN without being under guard or watch, a world in which government is barely an after thought in its reach, size, and scope, a world in which my Natural Born Rights surround me uninhibited but are reined in by ME voluntarily out of respect and value for the Natural Born Rights and sensibilities of my neighbors.  I think you get the point. 

Unfortunately, with over 7 billion humans roaming the world, many doing whatever they please, there MUST be a point at which Free people must draw a line of intolerance of evil conduct in that some criminal acts deserve NO redemption and the perpetrators are put down to prevent them from any further criminal acts.  Sadly, therein lies the rub.  Just WHO decides and how this gets implemented without human nature corrupting the process???

[Kathyp]

Just WHO decides and how this gets implemented without human nature corrupting the process???

Which is exactly the question the founders asked and the answer was that the government was not the solution and that this freedom given was suitable only for a religious and moral population.  It was not that they thought everyone should tromp off the church 3 times a week, but that the foundation had to be the morality of the Judeo-Christian belief system.  A people free of government oppression must still have a regulating force or we have Mad Max and Lord of The Flies going on. 

If you kill God, your only other force for regulation is the government. 

[Acebird]

If you kill God, your only other force for regulation is the government.

When people of a military background start talking religion my butt twitches.  God is not a regulator.  He might be judge and jury at day of reckoning.

[Kathyp]

When people of a military background start talking religion my butt twitches.  God is not a regulator.  He might be judge and jury at day of reckoning.

It is about what regulates behavior.  There is a reason communist countries ban religion, especially Christianity.  You don't have to advocate for a particular belief system to recognize that the belief system has value in a society.  Historically, societies have been built around them.  Doesn't matter whether it's live human sacrifice, or something else.  It is the glue.

Not sure why there is a problem with military and religion?  You seem not to have read much of what the founders or even past presidents have said.  Ever read FDRs d-day announcement?

Text of Radio Address - Prayer on D-Day, June 6, 1944:
"My fellow Americans: Last night, when I spoke with you about the fall of Rome, I knew at that moment that troops of the United States and our allies were crossing the Channel in another and greater operation. It has come to pass with success thus far.

And so, in this poignant hour, I ask you to join with me in prayer:

Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our Nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity.

Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith.

They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph.

They will be sore tried, by night and by day, without rest-until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war.

For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and good will among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home.

Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom.

And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters, and brothers of brave men overseas -- whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them--help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice.

Many people have urged that I call the Nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts.

Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces.

And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be.

And, O Lord, give us Faith. Give us Faith in Thee; Faith in our sons; Faith in each other; Faith in our united crusade. Let not the keenness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose.

With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogancies. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister Nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil.

Thy will be done, Almighty God.

Amen."

[Acebird]

A politician and religion is even more of farce.  That is what you have with Trump and the rest of the swamp.
God = Thou shalt not Kill.  Military = Kill or be killed.
God = Thou shalt not steal, lie, or commit adultery.  Politician = rob, lie like hell, and screw anything that walks.
For self preservation all religions teach "we are the way to heaven".  Most have killed to prove it.
Religion is not the glue.  They all suffer from the problem of "do as I say not as I do".  Every major religious organization is run by the swamp of its own.
The true glue of any society is the family unit.  The family today is torn apart by economic times.  The biggest difference between my parents generation and my children's generation is it takes 2 to 3 jobs to provide for a family.  That leaves no parent home to rear their own kids.  This has nothing to do with God or religion.

[iddee]

"" The biggest difference between my parents generation and my children's generation is it takes 2 to 3 jobs to provide for a family.""

No, it takes 2 to 3 jobs to provide 5 to 6 times the lifestyle today's family demands. Go back to 1 car per 3 families, carry buckets of water from the spring, raise half or more of your own food, no air conditioning, ETC. and a family could easily make it on one job.

[Kathyp]

A politician and religion is even more of farce.  That is what you have with Trump and the rest of the swamp.
God = Thou shalt not Kill.  Military = Kill or be killed.
God = Thou shalt not steal, lie, or commit adultery.  Politician = rob, lie like hell, and screw anything that walks.
For self preservation all religions teach "we are the way to heaven".  Most have killed to prove it.
Religion is not the glue.  They all suffer from the problem of "do as I say not as I do".  Every major religious organization is run by the swamp of its own.
The true glue of any society is the family unit.  The family today is torn apart by economic times.  The biggest difference between my parents generation and my children's generation is it takes 2 to 3 jobs to provide for a family.  That leaves no parent home to rear their own kids.  This has nothing to do with God or religion.

You miss the point and I think you miss it intentionally.  No society exists without controls.  Those controls either come from a common belief system or they come from the government.  It is not about the practice of religion.  Communist countries kill off religions because they want the only controls on behavior to come from the government.  They want the only belief to be a belief in the government. 

Iddee is correct.  The issue is not money, but lifestyle.  You can raise a family on one income if you choose well where you live and if you do without things...as our parents did.  I don't think most of us grew up wealthy, but I bet most of us grew up with only one parent working.  WE worked when we wanted something extra.  We earned it.