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Author Topic: Drone laying queen? A follow-up to my post a month or so back  (Read 1888 times)

Offline AustinB

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After leaving it alone for a while, I went back to hive #1. This was the large swarm I hived on April 21st. Early on I was concerned the queen had died or absconded. I saw her when I hived the bees and gently put her inside the top board. 1.5 weeks later I had 5 frames of drawn comb, nectar, pollen, no eggs. At a little over 2 weeks I saw about 5-10 eggs total. Yesterdays inspection showed lots of eggs. Singles, doubles, triples, most all at the bottom of the cell. I didn't spend a lot of time in it, but I didn't think I saw any capped workers, only capped drone cells scattered about in different locations. Developing larvae, some have more than 1 larvae in a cell. The bees are very calm and seem happy. There are about 5 seams of bees. I was concerned because I didn't spot any worker brood. That is until I started looking at the pictures, and maybe I see a couple? Also, during all of the inspections I have performed I have yet to see the queen, and I have been looking.
I'd love to hear suggestions from the experienced crowd on what you would suggest. I'm going to try to attach some pictures showing the frames and eggs.
https://postimg.cc/gallery/rRf19zV/c3d9f1da

**UPDATE**

One very important piece of information that I accidently left out was that around week 2.5  I added a frame of young brood with eggs to help boost the colony and see if they would raise a queen, which they did not. So here is what I have currently:
From what I can tell it ALL looks like capped drone. There are 4-5 capped cells that look smaller and flatter like worker brood
Laying pattern is fairly consistent
Still have many cells with 2 eggs, some with 3, but also many with just one! All eggs are at the bottom of the cell, no cells with more than 4, no eggs on the side of cells anywhere
Bees obviously aren't growing and expanding, but also aren't really drawing anymore comb, just sort of existing. Plus I still can't locate a queen

Here is my dilema; based on the single eggs, laying pattern, calmness of the bees I feel like I may have a drone laying queen and just can't find her..?
On the other hand, based on the multiple eggs and the amount of drones, coupled with the fact that I have suspected this hive to be hopelessly queenless for many weeks makes me think I may have laying workers.
I have a small swarm that I hived a few weeks ago. They are still small, but looking great! Beautiful laying pattern with nice solid oval of capped workers, honey at the top. Beautiful plump queen scurrying around. I suspect they will grow to be a nice colony over the summer. I would love to combine this one with my subject colony somehow. Only I don't want to risk my queen being killed.
Is there a good option to merge? Could I shake all the bees out of the "suspect" hive, move my small hive over to the original location of the "suspect" hive in the hopes that flying bees will move in?
I feel like a newspaper merge is probably risky. I hate to let the "suspect" hive continue down the road to destruction, is still has a good amount of bees (about 5 good seams)

« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 07:25:28 am by AustinB »
The just man walketh in his integrity: his children are blessed after him.
Proverbs 20:7

Gracious words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones. Proberbs 16:24

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Drone laying queen? A follow-up to my post a month or so back
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2021, 11:29:10 am »
Austin I learned from iddee here that when you find more than one egg in a cell, as long as it's in the bottom you are probably ok as young queens beginning to lay sometimes do this. But, when you find the same on the sides of a cell, drone layer. As far as why you have only drone brood and now, some worker brood, I do not know. Your pictures did not come through for me. It says [Invalid Attachment].
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline AustinB

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Re: Drone laying queen? A follow-up to my post a month or so back
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2021, 11:58:49 am »
Austin I learned from iddee here that when you find more than one egg in a cell, as long as it's in the bottom you are probably ok as young queens beginning to lay sometimes do this. But, when you find the same on the sides of a cell, drone layer. As far as why you have only drone brood and now, some worker brood, I do not know. Your pictures did not come through for me. It says [Invalid Attachment].

Ben - nearly every egg is on the bottom, and looks like its a queen who is new at this vs laying workers. My concern is that there seems to be no worker brood. Maybe I need to give it more time? There are a good number of bees, but it hasn't seemed to increase much at all. I have seen the queens multiple times in my other 2 hives, but I have never spotted this one since I hived them. That time I found her easily, she was plump and light colored. But I haven't seen that same queen any other time.
I'm having a hard time getting picture to work, trying to resize etc. Will post once I do.
The just man walketh in his integrity: his children are blessed after him.
Proverbs 20:7

Gracious words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones. Proberbs 16:24

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Drone laying queen? A follow-up to my post a month or so back
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2021, 12:31:28 pm »
It may be a case of supecedure where the old queen died or was killed off and the new queen just recently mated and is getting started. Or that the queen you originally saw was virgin, which leads to the next possibilities ?.
Perhaps:
Is now a case of hive gone to laying workers due to no brood, no queen.  Same scenario of a supercedure, but the new queen did not make it back from mating flight and the hive ended up hopelessly queenless.
Looking at the pictures at the 3rd party site is difficult on the phone app.  But what I could see suggested to me laying workers situation.

What to do? To confirm if laying worker do this.  Give them a frame of open brood with very young larvae and eggs from a different hive.  Wait one week.  When you go back look at all the frames again:
- if queens cells are being made on the donated brood frame, they are confirmed queenless and laying worker
- if there is still scattered brood and multiple eggs in the cells of other frames, they are confirmed queenless and laying worker.  This is regardless if there are queen cells or not on the donor frame.
- if there are no queen cells made on the donor frame AND the eggs in the cells of the other frames have settle out to singles in a tight pattern, then congratulations you have a new queen that has finally figured out her equipment.

If the hive is confirmed laying worker; do not introduce a new queen to it and do not be tempted to allow them to raise one from cells.  The method to deal with laying workers has been covered here many times.  The assured way is to newspaper combine them with a queenrite hive or shake them out and leave them to beg into other nearby hives.

Hope that all makes sense
Hope that helps.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline AustinB

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Re: Drone laying queen? A follow-up to my post a month or so back
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2021, 12:35:11 pm »
It may be a case of supecedure where the old queen died or was killed off and the new queen just recently mated and is getting started. Or that the queen you originally saw was virgin, which leads to the next possibility ?
OR
Is now a case of hive gone to laying workers due to no brood, no queen.  Same scenario of a supercedure, but the new queen did not make it back from mating flight and the hive ended up hopelessly queenless.
Looking at the pictures at the 3rd party site is difficult on the phone app.  But what I could see suggested to me laying workers situation.

What to do? To confirm if laying worker do this.  Give them a frame of open brood with very young larvae and eggs from a different hive.  Wait one week.  When you go back look at all the frames again:
- if queens cells are being made on the donated brood frame, they are confirmed queenless and laying worker
- if there is still scattered brood and multiple eggs in the cells of other frames, they are confirmed queenless and laying worker.  This is regardless if there are queen cells or not on the donor frame.
- if there are no queen cells made on the donor frame AND the eggs in the cells of the other frames have settle out to singles in a tight pattern, then congratulations you have a new queen that has finally figured out her equipment.

If the hive is confirmed laying worker; do not introduce a new queen to it and do not be tempted to allow them to raise one from cells.  The method to deal with laying workers has been covered here many times.  The assured way is to newspaper combine them with a queenrite hive or shake them out and leave them to beg into other nearby hives.

Hope that all makes sense
Hope that helps.

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much HP! I'll keep posted
The just man walketh in his integrity: his children are blessed after him.
Proverbs 20:7

Gracious words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones. Proberbs 16:24

Offline AustinB

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Re: Drone laying queen? A follow-up to my post a month or so back
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2021, 07:25:50 am »
Update in the main body of the post.
The just man walketh in his integrity: his children are blessed after him.
Proverbs 20:7

Gracious words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones. Proberbs 16:24

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Drone laying queen? A follow-up to my post a month or so back
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2021, 08:44:30 am »
It takes 9 days to see capped worker brood from the time the egg is laid. Have you given a new young queen enough time for her eggs to reach this stage? If so and the single eggs are still becoming drones then yes, you may very well have a drone laying queen. If you have not given it more than nine days since you are finding single eggs in the bottom of these cells, what will a few more days of patience, waiting to see how things develop, hurt? Some young queens are (runners and hiders). Some can be difficult to spot or see. I still say since you are finding single eggs with all eggs in the bottom of the cells, and no eggs on the side, you may have a young queen. Give her the nine days and more. If you are still seeing almost all drone brood after that then you will know.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline AustinB

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Re: Drone laying queen? A follow-up to my post a month or so back
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2021, 09:23:56 am »
It takes 9 days to see capped worker brood from the time the egg is laid. Have you given a new young queen enough time for her eggs to reach this stage? If so and the single eggs are still becoming drones then yes, you may very well have a drone laying queen. If you have not given it more than nine days since you are finding single eggs in the bottom of these cells, what will a few more days of patience, waiting to see how things develop, hurt? Some young queens are (runners and hiders). Some can be difficult to spot or see. I still say since you are finding single eggs with all eggs in the bottom of the cells, and no eggs on the side, you may have a young queen. Give her the nine days and more. If you are still seeing almost all drone brood after that then you will know.
Ben - yes at this point its been nearly 2 weeks. The first time there seemed to be a lot of drone cells, but I thought I'd wait and see. Now there are even more capped drones popping up, and I still only saw a handful (3-5 maybe) that I thought might be capped workers on this last inspection.
I think I'm going to give it another week (which will amount to about 3 total since regular eggs started appearing, and over 4 weeks since the first egg was spotted)
If I don't see any capped workers and see even more drone brood, I'll have to intervene.
The just man walketh in his integrity: his children are blessed after him.
Proverbs 20:7

Gracious words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones. Proberbs 16:24

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Drone laying queen? A follow-up to my post a month or so back
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2021, 09:52:37 am »
To cut through the.chase, You can set up a shaker box to find the queen. It is almost guaranteed that you will find the queen using this method. If so remove and replace her in the proper method. If you have no replacement. Mark her with a bright easy to spot color. Order a new one and replace her using the proper method when the replacement arrives.

If no queen is found by using the shaker box, you will need to make your own choice as what to do next, (which option to take). Personally I would follow HonePumps advice and shake out this hive by following his instructions, that is if I was positive no queen is there.

Again if you have a drone laying queen, you should find her with a shaker box.




2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline AustinB

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Re: Drone laying queen? A follow-up to my post a month or so back
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2021, 11:24:21 am »
To cut through the.chase, You can set up a shaker box to find the queen. It is almost guaranteed that you will find the queen using this method. If so remove and replace her in the proper method. If you have no replacement. Mark her with a bright easy to spot color. Order a new one and replace her using the proper method when the replacement arrives.

If no queen is found by using the shaker box, you will need to make your own choice as what to do next, (which option to take). Personally I would follow HonePumps advice and shake out this hive by following his instructions, that is if I was positive no queen is there.

Again if you have a drone laying queen, you should find her with a shaker box.
I have never tried a shaker box, but this might be a good time to give it a go
The just man walketh in his integrity: his children are blessed after him.
Proverbs 20:7

Gracious words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones. Proberbs 16:24

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Drone laying queen? A follow-up to my post a month or so back
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2021, 06:11:32 pm »
You did all the right things and have given them enough time to make a turn around.  Time to end the suffering, for them and for you.
At 4 weeks from first egg(s) seen the colony should 2.5x to 3x bigger now than it was then and looking like the other one you described. All indications given are that it is not. Time to accept that the hive has failed. It happens, it is part of beekeeping.
Cull it out now. Pickup the box of bees and set it aside. Take away bottom board and all hive equipment associated with it right down to the dirt. Take the box of bees 100 feet or more away and shake them all out in the grass. Do NOT reassemble the hive in its old location. Take the resources from the shook hive; the frames of honey, pollen, scattered brood, and donate those to the other hives that are doing well and will benefit.
Then forget about this hive and the shook bees and focus your beekeeping efforts on your good hives.
Yes, the shook bees will fly back to an empty patch of ground where the hive was. Yes they may even cluster there and look like a sad lot. Walk by ignoring them, as hard as that is. Or do not go or look at that spot at all for awhile. They are old bees now and are near the end of their life and their usefulness to any colony. So do not fuss over them, it is natures way. (and the beekeepers way). Over the course of the next few days the youngest and healthiest of the shook bees will dissipate will successfully find (beg) their way into the other nearby hives.
Do not bother trying to find a queen in shakeout clump or the flyback clustering. If you did find her you would be fully intent on killing her anyways. So why bother spending any time at it? If you do happen by chance to see her on the shakeout, do not hesitate to end her then and there.

The bee season is too short to spend week after week on this one. They have been given due care, resources and brood from other hives, and sufficient time to make a come back.  When they don't, we must cull the duds and more wisely spend our time promoting and nurturing the ones showing real results.

Hope that helps!
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 01:15:47 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Drone laying queen? A follow-up to my post a month or so back
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2021, 12:27:43 am »
HoneyPump I am glad you are here. Good advice....
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline AustinB

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Re: Drone laying queen? A follow-up to my post a month or so back
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2021, 08:32:51 am »
Thanks Honey Pump - I agree its time to move on to something better.
The just man walketh in his integrity: his children are blessed after him.
Proverbs 20:7

Gracious words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones. Proberbs 16:24