Tricks to locate a queen that seems to like to hide?

[GDRankin]

I've got a semi-hot colony I'm wanting to re-queen and the new queen arrived today. However, I've searched all the frames for the last few days (when time allows) and have not been able to locate the queen that needs to go. I'm pretty certain she's in there somewhere, because the are fresh eggs in cells, but she is elusive as heck. I've checked ever frame multiple times during each inspection and can't seem to find her.
This is a fairly full hive body, one deep with 10 full pretty frames with comb (rubber banded in) from a removal, so there are odd places throughout with a lot of workers around. There are often several workers gathered on the screened bottom board and the side walls, so I look through those groups as good as I can . . . still nothing.
So I'm wondering if there are any tricks of the trade that anyone may be willing to share to locate a "hiddie" queen?

The only thing I can think of to do (and it would be a pain) would be to add another hive body and try to move as many workers into it as possible, then put a queen excluder between the two boxes and try to isolate her somehow.

Any suggestions will be most appreciated.
Meanwhile, I'm going to go search again.  :police:
Thanks,
GD

[BeeMaster2]

GD,
You are on the right track.
Add a second super, shake the frames and put them in the new super. Leave one empty drawn super in the bottom box. Put the excluder on the top of the single frame super and inspect the frames as you put them in the top super to make sure she did not fly to it. The bees will move to the top super making it easier to find the queen. Within a day or so she will bee laying eggs for you to verify she is down there. You can then just remove the top super and place it in a new location if you still cannot find her. Then 24 hours later, re queen.
Do not use a brush, just shake them off the frames. Brushes really irritate your bees and cause them to get hot. I have one that I rarely use. I used it on my first honey removal. It took them 3 weeks to calm down.  
Jim

[GDRankin]

Ahh okay, that makes sense. I figured there had to be an easier way and thought using the excluder made sense . . . I just wasn't sure the best way to work that all out.

By the way, I actually found the one I was looking for shortly after I posted the above message. Once I found her, on a frame full of workers, I watched her for a few minutes and realized why she was so hard to find before. She was keeping to the edges and rounding the corner every time I spun the frame to check the back side, so she must have just been getting out of my field of vision each time I inspected the frame she was on.

At any rate, I'm sure I'll need to use the method you described again in the future, so thanks for sharing!

As far as the part about just moving the upper (queenless) super to another location and adding another queen 24 hours later . . . how far away should that be to prevent the workers from wanting to return to the previous spot to rejoin their old queen?

I guess the same would apply to re-queening a box when making a split? Just wondering how far is a comfortable distance? 

Thanks again,
GD

[BeeMaster2]

GD,
Moving it was a last resort. 4 feet would probably be enough but you were just doing it to find the queen. The field bees are going to want to return to the original location. Causes a lot of confusion. If you have a lot of hives, the field bees will probably end up in other hives. If you only have one, and you remove the empty box, they will find your hive on the same property. For about 3 weeks you will see your existing field bees fly back to the old location and then loop back around and then go to the new location.

With a split, the trick is to shake enough house bees into the hive that is being moved and put the old queen in that hive. Most of the field bees are going back to the old location.
Another way to do the split is to move both boxes just a little and face the openings towards the old location. The idea is that half will go to one and half will go to the other.
Jim

[Chick]

Queens do not like the light, so they hide from it. They also will get off the frames, and get on the inside of the brood box. I keep a flashlight in my pocket, for looking through the bees inside the brood box.

[Michael Bush]

Finding queens:
http://bushfarms.com/beesqueenspotting.htm

Requeening a hot hive:
http://bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm

Another trick is to put an excluder between each box and come back in 4 days.  The one with eggs is the one with the queen.  If you still can't find her in one box, then split it into two five frame nucs while you requeen the main hive.  In four days you can put one of them back on and look through the one with eggs for the queen again.  If you still can't find her, split it into two and repeat the process...

[GDRankin]

Great stuff guys . . . thanks for all the info and tips as well as the links to the help pages.

I appreciate all the help I can get on this subject, as I'm doing removals down here in south Texas and most are a bit on the hot side. So re-queening is in order for the most part.

Thanks again,
GD

[RayMarler]

Take a frame of youngest larva from a different hive and shake most of the bees off of it, and place it into the hive you are needing to find the queen. Come back in five minutes and pull that frame out real quick and inspect it. Most of the time the queen will be on that frame, checking out the open larva with a strange scent and spreading her own pheromone scent onto it to claim it as her own. Works most times, not all times.

[GDRankin]

Heya Ray,
That's an interesting trick and it makes sense . . . I'll be giving that one a try as well.
Thanks for the tip!