Re-queening from a nuc

[Aroc]

I have a decent hive that I?m pretty sure is queenless.  There are no eggs or brood whatsoever.  I believe she swarmed and a queen never developed.  I purchased a queen with the idea I wanted to re-queen this hive since it tends to be a bit hot.  Not fun to deal with.

I discovered the swarm issue last week so I was reluctant to just add the new queen.  I put her in a nuc where she is doing just fine. 

The original hive still has no eggs.  I?m going to assume there is no queen. I want to put the queen from the nuc in there.

Question is what?s the best way to do this?  Should I catch her, put her in a cage and introduce her as a store bought queen?

I was thinking of just combining her with the frames she?s on now but really don?t want to add another box on top and have brood on the top box.  Is it possible to put her in the middle with newspaper on both top and bottom?

Thanks for the input

[moebees]

First are you sure you have waited long enough to establish there is no queen?  It can take up to a month to raise a new queen have her get mated and start laying. 

If it has been long enough I would think a newspaper above and below could work but have never done it myself.  Why not have the nuc on top? 

What size nuc is it and are you adding it to 10 frame boxes?   

The other option would be to introduce with a push in cage but since she is laying and has frames of bees and brood the combine is probably better option.  I would definitely not put her in a cage and do a candy release.  She is a laying queen and more likely to be accepted in that state than if you make her a non-laying queen and put her in without any of her brood or bees.   Just make sure the hive your combining with is really queenless.  People often assume queenless too soon.

[Aroc]

I was in 7 days ago and there were no eggs at that time.  Figured from that time I?d give her at least 4 days to return a mated queen. 

Still no indication of any eggs.  My fear is waiting too long and getting a laying worker.

[moebees]

Laying workers take awhile.  You have time.   You can give them a frame with open brood and that will stop laying workers.  If they make a queen cell it will also tell you they are queenless.

[beepro]

If this queen is a strong queen then I would just put her entire box with bees and all on top of this queen less hive.  I've never
use newspaper before.  So if they want a laying queen then they will accept her.   Make sure that the queen right box have more
bees than the queen less hive.  This will make acceptance less complicated.

[Aroc]

That?s the problem.  The queenless hives is huge.  Like 4 boxes.  The queen I want to add is in a nuc.

[Waveeater]

What did you decide to do or have you yet?

[Aroc]

What did you decide to do or have you yet?

Weather here is real crappy.  Cold and rain for next couple of days. 

I think I?m going to put a frame of young open brood in to see if they start any QC?s.  Once I?m sure there isn?t a queen, I will do a paper combine on the top. If everything works like I?d like I?ll just move the frames down to a lower box and take unused ones out. 

[cao]

I think I?m going to put a frame of young open brood in to see if they start any QC?s.  Once I?m sure there isn?t a queen, I will do a paper combine on the top. If everything works like I?d like I?ll just move the frames down to a lower box and take unused ones out. 

If the queen is doing well in the nuc, why move her?  If you take a frame of eggs from the queen in the nuc and they start a new queen you get her genetics and you still have her in a nuc.  If they don't, they could have a queen and would be risky to combine. 

[Michael Bush]

>Question is what?s the best way to do this? 

I just take the frame with the queen and her bees on it and put it in the queenless hive.  A queen who is in the process of laying, and is with her bees, is readily accepted.  This was Brother Adam's standard method and it's what I do.

[moebees]

>Question is what?s the best way to do this? 

I just take the frame with the queen and her bees on it and put it in the queenless hive.  A queen who is in the process of laying, and is with her bees, is readily accepted.  This was Brother Adam's standard method and it's what I do.

That's assuming you want the nuc to raise a queen or add a queen to it.  Otherwise you have some extra frames of bees left with no purpose.  I think that is why he was talking about doing the combine although I could be wrong.   Not disagreeing with your advice Michael, just saying that unless you have some other use for the nuc you might as well put them all in.

[Aroc]

I think I?m going to put a frame of young open brood in to see if they start any QC?s.  Once I?m sure there isn?t a queen, I will do a paper combine on the top. If everything works like I?d like I?ll just move the frames down to a lower box and take unused ones out. 

If the queen is doing well in the nuc, why move her?  If you take a frame of eggs from the queen in the nuc and they start a new queen you get her genetics and you still have her in a nuc.  If they don't, they could have a queen and would be risky to combine.

I am at capacity with hives.  I can only have 10 without getting into a reporting and fee issue.  Also in Montana it?s getting late to try to raise new queens

[beepro]

Right now is the perfect time to raise new queens in your area.  In time for the
early Autumn flow there.  Maybe it is time to find another out yard somewhere. Once you find out that this hive is queen less then put the entire nuc on top with a piece of newspaper underneath it.  If you have confirmed that
this nuc queen is a strong laying queen then you can skip the newspaper altogether.  I just did a combine by swapping out the dinky queen with a newly mated large thorax queen in my 5 level deep nucs hive.  I put in 4 frames of bees one of which has the laying queen from the nuc hive into the booming 5 level hive.  Then check on the new queen the next night.  No issue so far with acceptance.

In a cold weather environment you needed more laying queens in case of a dead out.

[yes2matt]

I think I?m going to put a frame of young open brood in to see if they start any QC?s.  Once I?m sure there isn?t a queen, I will do a paper combine on the top. If everything works like I?d like I?ll just move the frames down to a lower box and take unused ones out. 

If the queen is doing well in the nuc, why move her?  If you take a frame of eggs from the queen in the nuc and they start a new queen you get her genetics and you still have her in a nuc.  If they don't, they could have a queen and would be risky to combine.

I am at capacity with hives.  I can only have 10 without getting into a reporting and fee issue.  Also in Montana it?s getting late to try to raise new queens

Not to derail, it's a good question.
But if somebody tells me "ten max" I automatically start plotting how to get 12 or 15. And I start thinking "well maybe they mean ten towers of boxes" ... and then, there's lots of fun ways to divide a tower of boxes to house several colonies. :)

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

[moebees]

Not to derail, it's a good question.
But if somebody tells me "ten max" I automatically start plotting how to get 12 or 15. And I start thinking "well maybe they mean ten towers of boxes" ... and then, there's lots of fun ways to divide a tower of boxes to house several colonies. :)

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

And that's how beekeepers get a bad reputation and municipalities start implementing ever more restrictive regulations.  In my area around Chicago in the last 15 years we have gone from almost no regulations to almost every community implementing regulations and several communities have outright banded beekeeping.

[Ben Framed]

I am at capacity with hives.  I can only have 10 without getting into a reporting and fee issue.  Also in Montana it?s getting late to try to raise new queens
[/quote]



I am just wondering, is this some type of city order me a state ordinance?

[Acebird]

I am at capacity with hives.

This would influence my decision to gamble because next year what are you going to do if all your hives make it through winter?  I would put the queen right nuc on the bottom board and newspaper combine one box at a time.  If the first box doesn't kill the queen I don't think the successive boxes will.  If the first box does kill the queen I would shake the bees out and take all the honey at the end of your flows.

[Aroc]

I am at capacity with hives.  I can only have 10 without getting into a reporting and fee issue.  Also in Montana it?s getting late to try to raise new queens

I am just wondering, is this some type of city order me a state ordinance?
[/quote]

It?s a Montana reg.  There is another thread here about different state regs that explains it in more detail.

I can have more than 10 but it puts me into a different category that requires me to report my hives and pay a fee.  Really don?t want to do that.

[yes2matt]

Not to derail, it's a good question.
But if somebody tells me "ten max" I automatically start plotting how to get 12 or 15. And I start thinking "well maybe they mean ten towers of boxes" ... and then, there's lots of fun ways to divide a tower of boxes to house several colonies. :)

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

And that's how beekeepers get a bad reputation and municipalities start implementing ever more restrictive regulations.  In my area around Chicago in the last 15 years we have gone from almost no regulations to almost every community implementing regulations and several communities have outright banded beekeeping.

I'll disagree about where the bad reputation comes from -- swarms, stings, and swimming pool encounters more likely.  Seriously tho, that sucks. How do you get thru swarm season? I'd also wonder about the verbiage of the ordinance: how are "hive " or "colony " defined and counted?

Attached pic: that's "two"  :)

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

[moebees]

Not to derail, it's a good question.
But if somebody tells me "ten max" I automatically start plotting how to get 12 or 15. And I start thinking "well maybe they mean ten towers of boxes" ... and then, there's lots of fun ways to divide a tower of boxes to house several colonies. :)

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

And that's how beekeepers get a bad reputation and municipalities start implementing ever more restrictive regulations.  In my area around Chicago in the last 15 years we have gone from almost no regulations to almost every community implementing regulations and several communities have outright banded beekeeping.

I'll disagree about where the bad reputation comes from -- swarms, stings, and swimming pool encounters more likely.  Seriously tho, that sucks. How do you get thru swarm season? I'd also wonder about the verbiage of the ordinance: how are "hive " or "colony " defined and counted?

Attached pic: that's "two"  :)

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

Not surprising you would disagree since you advocate "plotting" to circumvent the law.  Swarms, stings, and swimming pool encounters can occur without beekeepers present.  Many of the encounters may involve hornets, bumble bees or other insects that people simply describe as bees because of their ignorance.  But when a dispute arises and it is found that the neighbor beekeeper has 15 hives instead of the mandated 10, well then the non-beekeeping public can be justifiably upset.  So plot away because you are so clever.

[Acebird]

Moebees it is hard for people who live with little restriction to understand areas of restrictions.  They would never live there.  I don't think Matt is going to change the view of folks around him about beekeeping, he just doesn't understand the value of restrictions in other areas that he has never lived in.  Let's be friends.  We all like bees.

[moebees]

Moebees it is hard for people who live with little restriction to understand areas of restrictions.  They would never live there.  I don't think Matt is going to change the view of folks around him about beekeeping, he just doesn't understand the value of restrictions in other areas that he has never lived in.  Let's be friends.  We all like bees.

I didn't realize that understanding the necessity of laws and regulations was only applicable to people that live in certain locations.  Thank you for educating me.  I also thought that advocating breaking the law was a negative rather than the other way around.  My bad I guess.  Also didn't realize I was being unfriendly.  I'll try not to disagree with anyone in the future.

[Acebird]

I'll try not to disagree with anyone in the future.

I would hate to see that happen.  Discussions of different views is what forums are about.

[yes2matt]

Moebees it is hard for people who live with little restriction to understand areas of restrictions.  They would never live there.  I don't think Matt is going to change the view of folks around him about beekeeping, he just doesn't understand the value of restrictions in other areas that he has never lived in.  Let's be friends.  We all like bees.

I didn't realize that understanding the necessity of laws and regulations was only applicable to people that live in certain locations.  Thank you for educating me.  I also thought that advocating breaking the law was a negative rather than the other way around.  My bad I guess.  Also didn't realize I was being unfriendly.  I'll try not to disagree with anyone in the future.

You're not being unfriendly; we just disagree. I am somewhat of a scofflaw. I wish there were more like me; we wouldn't have so many laws.

@Aroc and the others who have contributed. I'm sorry I derailed the thread. It was imprudent of me. Could we get a followup on what you actually did? and the result?

[Aroc]

I don?t like laws limiting laws either.....that is a different thread though.

The jury is still out on this one.  The hive in question now has eggs and young larvae.  I?m going to check in a couple of days to see if they are worker brood or drone brood.  My bee math is terrible so I may have been off.  We have had some very crappy rainy weather so if it is a mated queen it may have taken awhile to get mated.

In the meantime I have another hive I believe has a drone layer in it as it is full of drone brood.  I see eggs but they are single in the cell and slightly off to the side.  Not sure what to do with this one.

[moebees]

I don?t like laws limiting laws either.....that is a different thread though.

The jury is still out on this one.  The hive in question now has eggs and young larvae.  I?m going to check in a couple of days to see if they are worker brood or drone brood.  My bee math is terrible so I may have been off.  We have had some very crappy rainy weather so if it is a mated queen it may have taken awhile to get mated.

In the meantime I have another hive I believe has a drone layer in it as it is full of drone brood.  I see eggs but they are single in the cell and slightly off to the side.  Not sure what to do with this one.

If it is a drone layer you will need to find her and get rid of her before adding brood or a new queen.  My experience is that they usually won't make a new queen or accept and introduction with the drone layer in there.

[Acebird]

It would seem like if a queen wasn't performing and the colony had a way to replace her they would.  I wouldn't put a queen in because they may do battle and the good one lose.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Aroc, sorry your having a difficult time with queens.  I realize Montana has a shorter bee season than most states.  Hang in there, you will get it worked out, Im hoping you drone layer is a bonafied queen that just happens to lay drones at the moment and she start to lay worker brood soon, like today.  Anyway so much for wishful thinking, time will tell with your queen and if she is a true drone layer then replace her.  Best of luck to you, Aroc.

I might add, I am having difficulty rearing queens, about 50% never return from a mating flight.  I have a pair of Cat Birds and a pair of Tanangers living close to my apiary.  I see the tanangers swoop down at my hives everyday.  I have neighbors that tell me to shoot em, well, I cannot shoot the birds, no way.  The tanangers are just beautiful so I?ll donate a few bees,,,,,,and apparently some virgin queens too.

Tomorrow, Wednesday, I have to do a newspaper combine due to another missing virgin queen.  Oh well, that?s beekeeping, got to enjoy it.  I realize I could present a frame of eggs but I have to many hives anyway, so a combine will do just fine.

Blessings

[moebees]

It would seem like if a queen wasn't performing and the colony had a way to replace her they would.  I wouldn't put a queen in because they may do battle and the good one lose.

It would seem that way to me too but I have tried to replace drone layers with frames of brood and purchased queens  and they always kill the queen and won't make queen cells from the introduced brood even though they build queen cups all over the place.  The "bee logic"  could be that if young larva shows up, hay maybe the queen is getting her act together?  And when introducing a caged queen they may say a drone layer is better than a non layer.  I have not tried it with a laying queen but suspect they would accept a laying queen.

[Acebird]

I have a pair of Cat Birds and a pair of Tanangers living close to my apiary.  I see the tanangers swoop down at my hives everyday.  I have neighbors that tell me to shoot em, well, I cannot shoot the birds, no way.

LOL conflicting hobbies, bird watching and beekeeping.  I guess you are destine to just buy mated queens.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Thanks for the text, Ace, you see the humours side of things, I appreciate that.  Kind of fun to watch the tanangers: they swoop down grab a bee then remove the stinger and eat the bee.  They catch wasp too, in fact bees and wasp make up the main diet of these beautiful birds.  Tanangers males are bright red with very yellow beek, females are yellow and green.  They are bee eaters for certain.  They make a nest that hangs down from limbs of the canopy.  I think I will name the male ACE in your honor.
Blessings

[Acebird]

Thanks Van now my screen name is associated with bee killer.  LOL Although I probably already earned that without your help.

[Ben Framed]

Thanks for the text, Ace, you see the humours side of things, I appreciate that.  Kind of fun to watch the tanangers: they swoop down grab a bee then remove the stinger and eat the bee.  They catch wasp too, in fact bees and wasp make up the main diet of these beautiful birds.  Tanangers males are bright red with very yellow beek, females are yellow and green.  They are bee eaters for certain.  They make a nest that hangs down from limbs of the canopy.  I think I will name the male ACE in your honor.
Blessings

Mr Van, I had looked up tanangers from your earlier comments on this post and could not find a description. I was just about to ask you, and read this last comment that describes them. Sounds like a beautiful bird. I don't know that I have seen this bird here in my area.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

>Question is what?s the best way to do this? 

I just take the frame with the queen and her bees on it and put it in the queenless hive.  A queen who is in the process of laying, and is with her bees, is readily accepted.  This was Brother Adam's standard method and it's what I do.

MBush, I just tried this: added 2 frames of eggs and larva with the queen to a nuc with 3 frames of bees from different hives; a 5 frame nuc.  I was a little nervous, but I have learned I can trust what you say.  Yes Sir, the queen was readily accepted and a week later all is well.  Brother Adam is a man I highly respect, both for bee and spiritual knowledge.  The bee world lost a good man, may Brother Adam Rest In Peace.  This is a bit off subject, hope ya don?t mind Jim, I would just like to say I also appreciate M. Bush Biblical knowledge.  Mr. Bush, Sir, we may differ on treatment of mites but I respect your position.
Blessings

[Ben Framed]

>Question is what?s the best way to do this? 

I just take the frame with the queen and her bees on it and put it in the queenless hive.  A queen who is in the process of laying, and is with her bees, is readily accepted.  This was Brother Adam's standard method and it's what I do.

MBush, I just tried this: added 2 frames of eggs and larva with the queen to a nuc with 3 frames of bees from different hives; a 5 frame nuc.  I was a little nervous, but I have learned I can trust what you say.  Yes Sir, the queen was readily accepted and a week later all is well.  Brother Adam is a man I highly respect, both for bee and spiritual knowledge.  The bee world lost a good man, may Brother Adam Rest In Peace.  This is a bit off subject, hope ya don?t mind Jim, I would just like to say I also appreciate M. Bush Biblical knowledge.  Mr. Bush, Sir, we may differ on treatment of mites but I respect your position.
Blessings

Mr Van, I keep seeing brother Adams name mentioned, who is brother Adam? I am sure I could google it but I am guessing there are other new beekeepers who are wondering the same thing. Thanks Phillip Hall

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Brother Adam was a Chatolic priest in England who devoted his life, over 90 years to beekeeping as a sideline to priesthood.  The church needed beeswax candles and the honey also brought in funds.  He traveled the world collecting queens trying to breed the perfect honeybee.

Brother Adam apiary was known as BUCKFAST ABBEY.  The Buckfast bee is still available to this day.  Brother Adam perfected Honey production, queen rearing, genetic lines of impressive bees.  His techniques of Honey production are employed to this day.  The priest would have double the Honey compared to neighboring Apiary?s, by Brother Adams use of his strongest hives.

Brother Adam book :  BEEKEEPING AT BUCKFAST ABBEY is worth the read, one of several books.   Perhaps the single most important message I learned from Brother Adam was the security of a proven queen, that is the mental aspects of a queen which I had not considered until Adam enlighten me with his books.
Blessings

[Ben Framed]

Thanks Van. He was a real Bee man.  I am just wondering, with all his travels, all his experiments,  breeding and cross breeding, searching for the best possible queens, from the world over, why didn't he also come up with the Africanized bees? Do you know a lot about this?  Thanks Phillip

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Brother Adam did travel to Africa and did witness the vicious African Honey bee., His exact words {I have never seen anything like this.}. He did not collect queen from the vicious bees.  However, Brother Adam did travel into the mountains of Africa and did collect a solid black gentle queen which he took back to Buckfast for breeding.
Blessings

[Ben Framed]

Brother Adam did travel to Africa and did witness the vicious African Honey bee., His exact words {I have never seen anything like this.}. He did not collect queen from the vicious bees.  However, Brother Adam did travel into the mountains of Africa and did collect a solid black gentle queen which he took back to Buckfast for breeding.
Blessings

Wise decision for brither Adam. Thanks for the answer..

[Ben Framed]

Brother Adam did travel to Africa and did witness the vicious African Honey bee., His exact words {I have never seen anything like this.}. He did not collect queen from the vicious bees.  However, Brother Adam did travel into the mountains of Africa and did collect a solid black gentle queen which he took back to Buckfast for breeding.
Blessings

Wise decision for brither Adam. Thanks for the answer..
[/quote

Being Brother Adam found the African bee so vicious, and he did indeed live long enough to see the results of the experiment gone wrong in Sout America, I am wondering if he had any comments or opinions of the (new Africinized bee). In other words, did he find the African bee and the Africanized bee with basically the same or similar trates? Or the New bee even much more aggressive than the bees he found so vicious in Africa?  Anyone read his books or maybe comments on this subject from him?  I realize that this subject has been talked about but Just now learning of brother Adam I sure would like to know his outlook..  Thanks Phillip

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Phillip: reading Brother Adam book, he did mention and did see the viciousness of the African honey Bee.  I can tell you from reading his book, Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey, ,Brother Adam wanted nothing to do with the vicious African Honey Bee.

Keep in mind, not all Bees in Africa are vicious.  In fact Brother Adam collected several queens from Africa but they were from gentle hives.  His prize was a solid black queen collected from a man made hive from the Mountain.  I believe Brother Adam was in his eighties, 80 when he made his last trip to Africa.  Like I said earlier, he traveled the world collecting queens.
Blessings

[Ben Framed]

Phillip: reading Brother Adam book, he did mention and did see the viciousness of the African honey Bee.  I can tell you from reading his book, Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey, ,Brother Adam wanted nothing to do with the vicious African Honey Bee.

Keep in mind, not all Bees in Africa are vicious.  In fact Brother Adam collected several queens from Africa but they were from gentle hives.  His prize was a solid black queen collected from a man made hive from the Mountain.  I believe Brother Adam was in his eighties, 80 when he made his last trip to Africa.  Like I said earlier, he traveled the world collecting queens.
Blessings

Thanks Van, with your information, I can hardly wait to read the book myself!  This sounds like a blessed man as well as a blessing to mankind. Especially beekeeping.. Thank you for sharing your kmodlege of him. Sincerely, Phillip 

[jimineycricket]

Watch this video. It is about Buckfast Bees.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4j9tSneoL4

It will link you four more in the series.

[beepro]

To clean up the drone layer hive, I had distributed the bee frame with attaching bees into other queen
right hive before.    Let's say you have 10 hives with a laying queen.  Then each hive will receive a frame of
bees from the DL hive.   

Since DL hive may or may not be queen right, you have to further inspect this hive.   

[Ben Framed]

Watch this video. It is about Buckfast Bees.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4j9tSneoL4

It will link you four more in the series.

jimineycricket
This is a good video series!!  Thank you for posting. We are very fortunate to have the information available  that has been accumulated and built upon by these pioneers from the beginning until now...