Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: omnimirage on January 12, 2018, 03:04:25 am
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I've come across some people arguing to use bee swarms, rather than to buy queen bees. The argument was that, bee swarms have grown strong enough to be able to split off and adapt to one's local environment, whereas queens are often enough not suitable for such and tend to under perform in comparison.
At least here in my part of Australia, people like buying queen bees from the local bee sanctuary, Kangaroo Island, which houses a pure strain of Ligurian Bee.
Now I'm wanting to split a number of my hives to expand my operation. I have one hive that's probably the most productive of the lot (could just be because it's the oldest most established), and it's also by far the most aggressive hive. I figure that, in spite of how productive they are, I don't wish to duplicate such aggressive bees and if anything, I should try to replace the queen with more gentler genetics. I've thought about finding the queen and squishing her, then take out all the frames that have eggs/young larvae in them, and replace them with eggs/young larvae from hives that have more desired traits. I figure I can do this with any beehive that has undesirable characteristics. A number of my hives don't ever seem to perform too well. It's difficult to tell if it's just due to their current circumstances, that they just need more time, or whether the genetics of the bees is not as strong.
This is all a pretty fascinating topic. How do you guys manage the genetics of your bees?
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I prefer swarms, hopefully from feral hives that have not had to have chemicals to keep them alive.
Jim
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One of the gems from Brother Adam - for the amateur beekeeper - was to 'divide' your apiary into two, and breed each time from those queens in the best half. Which I think is good advice in the absence of a better plan.
He didn't qualify what was meant by 'best' - presumably whatever qualities the beekeeper is looking for. For me, good behaviour is the number one priority. Disease resistance comes second. Everything else then lines-up in a queue.
When re-starting beekeeping after decades away, I first collected numerous local swarms (around 20 ?), ALL of which were ferocious - and so I took to importing queens of known proven stock in order to obtain a stable base-line from which to work. But - no sooner had I done that, than one swarm arrived which turned out to have highly desirable behaviour. (Murphy's Law, aka Sod's Law in action ...)
Which is why I still have two distinctly different lines of bees here - which I fully expect to morph together at some point in the future - but can still be identified apart due to their different colouring.
Faced with your situation, I'd be inclined to raise a new queen first (in a nuc) in order that you can make a provisional assessment of her quality before squishing the undesirable queen and replacing her. If you raise the new queen over your existing problematic colony, replacement should then be a trouble-free procedure.
LJ
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The Ligurian Bee. I think I have read about this bee line, world famous, if it is the one I am thinking of. Does the bee keeper of this line put his hives on tracks, and therefore controls the breeding by confining and releasing his queens and his drones, only after the local drone congregation has returned to their hives. Is this the same bee line as I speak of?
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Ligurian Bee, mirage, are you referring to species name, I.e. the common itialian?
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Interesting about testing the queen in a nuc before using her to replace other queens.
I'm not sure Van. In Kangaroo Island, it's a bee sanctuary, besides the native Australian honeybees (which are much smaller), the Ligurian bee is the only bee on the island, so even all the feral bees are pure strain Ligurians.
And yes I am referring to the common italian bee.
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Behavior: I am with LJ, behaviors is number 1. I define gentle bees as bees that I can approach the hive in short sleeve and observe without problems. If the bees chase me, then genetics, the queen, is going to change.
In US, some breeders offer proven queens at a premium (about additional $20.00)...!That is the queen is bred, placed in a nuc, (not a small mating nuc) and the laying pattern is observed for 21 days.
This year, I have ordered survivor queens and Caucasian queens. Survivor bees defined as the parent hive was not treated with chemicals the previous year.
In 2017, I focused on Cordovan queens, I am still evaluating this type,,,,,, so far I will say I am not overly impressed.
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Around here the feral bees tend to be very dark and a bit more aggressive while the domesticated bees are usually of the Italian variety and much lighter. Over the past couple years my bees have darkened up it seems.
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I manage the genetics of my bees by the II method using the Cordovan bees.
Then find out yards to expand them choosing the strongest queen available. I also source
tf queens to evaluate them before putting the daughters into my breeding program. All new
queens have to be evaluated against the mites before using them as breeders. In the end I'm
hoping to find some gentle mite fighting bees without the need to treat them.
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bwallace23350, I'm guessing that's because your virgin queens are breeding with the feral drones.
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Van, what problems have you had with the Cordovan bee's. I have had two Cordovan queens I like them both, one did swarm with no queen cells left in the hive. that's why I got the second one. A year or so after that I got a Russian queen from the same breeder. He has one yard for each breed and are several miles apart. He puts his queens in the nucs and you can see, if you go there, what kind of laying pattern she is doing. So far I have got them for $20. each. I haven't talked to him lately, haven't been over in his neck of the woods, and he has become the Mayor of his town. I like both the Cordovan and Russian for the gentleness. I have worked the Cordovan with shorts and a tee shirt.
Good luck to you and your bees,
Joe D
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Beepro, the problems I am experiencing with Cordovans is small winter clusters and subsequent freeze kill. The Cordovans are incredible gentle. I purchased some Cordovan queens in August from warm California. Maybe the queens were banked to long, maybe they are not used to single digits.?? I have 6 Cordovan queens this date, 01/17/18.. However the temp is 2 degrees F for low and I fear more winter kill. It?s not the low temp that I am worried about killing my bees, it is the humidity of 70% and subsequent condensation. I have open up the entrance to my hives for ventilation to reduce condensation. Two degrees F ang high humidity of 70% is very unusual for North Arkansas. Normal is cold dry air from the North.
Blessings
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I've come across some people arguing to use bee swarms, rather than to buy queen bees. The argument was that, bee swarms have grown strong enough to be able to split off and adapt to one's local environment, whereas queens are often enough not suitable for such and tend to under perform in comparison.
At least here in my part of Australia, people like buying queen bees from the local bee sanctuary, Kangaroo Island, which houses a pure strain of Ligurian Bee.
....errrm, "populist poppycock" to quote one attendant's comment at a QBA gathering
in 2017. A view I would struggle to argue against as that would mean accepting two
-at least - known contradictions, being;
1. No european honeybee existed on KI prior to 1884 despite the prolific takeup of Apis
for 60 years prior to.
2. Since 1884 not a single 'rogue' strain of Apis has been introduced into
the local genetics despite the known pecularity of beekeepers to always
seek "better bees".
At best one could say there is a very good chance any Queen from KI owns
unique characteristics - whether those be superior genetics to your local
is highly subjective opinion.... possibly bordering on jingoistic fervour?
Regardless, there is no justifiable case to mount in defending the pricing structure
of these or those others from like 'sancturarys' in West Aussie.
Well, certainly no outstanding attributes logged in commercial use.
Makes good press for the SA and WA g'mnts tho'... heh ;-)
(ref)
https://www.island-beehive.com.au/ligurian-bee-history
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/aen.12124/abstract
This is all a pretty fascinating topic. How do you guys manage the genetics ..... (edit)
In strongly disagreeing with the use of swarming colonies as a strain I would suggest they
provide an excellent resource in building whole apiaries. Did plenty of that, back in the day,
using queens from selected breeders.
Today I run two lines from breeders well separated geographicly, bringing those queens to
two locations more than 30km apart. Their progeny is then allowed to mix with the localised
bush "mongrels" giving up what could be known as a "Red Kelpie Mongrel". Whether they
are the best - or better than the local mongrels - cannot be known, but they sure standout
when one sees bees foraging.
Bill
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Van - you know what you were saying about having as many feet of snow as we get in inches ? Well, I'll trade you snow against humidity.
70% humidity is a dry winter's day in this area. Frequently it's well up in the 90's. And, the water table here is often only a foot below the ground during winter. My driveway becomes covered in moss, and I've even seen moles wearing life-jackets (ok ... in my imagination). Bees don't seem to mind these conditions too much though.
LJ
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Good to hear from both you beeks, Bill and LJ
LJ, yes, we have all heard of LONDON FOG, translates to humidity. You are on a big island surrounded by ocean. I wish I could trade snow, every night I have to clean entrances so the hives can breathe. Gonna be another night of 4F , Tuesday 1/16/18...... I believe our water well is 600 ft, beautiful water though.
Etailia, Bill, you have red bees??????Red, counter striped I am guessing. That would be cool. Thanks for input on Kangaroo island. I like to know stuff even if you are across the planet. Enjoy the warm temps,,,, flowers that I long to see.
Blessings
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Van; Those small clusters are caused by the queen not laying properly during the months of July and August. If you trickle feed a couple of gallons of sugar syrup to keep her laying usually you will go into winter with sufficient bees to overwinter. I have noticed that the small winter clusters produce much water vapor, more than I see with a large cluster (7 to 8 frames) during the winter. Leaving the screened bottom board open and top insulation removes the problem with the excess water.
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Interesting eltalia. So how come you decided to invest money buying queens, instead of using the queen that came with the swarm?
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Interesting eltalia. So how come you decided to invest money buying queens, instead of using the queen that came with the swarm?
"invest money"..????.. now don't get me started on the status of that historical fiscal fist of the
backyard bee-owner, but really..??.. 20 odd bucks plus postage, and that's an order of one (1) at
retail...uhh..??..having bought in lots of 50 plus I would call that "invest money" ;-))))
Seriously.
We do know swarms are bulging packages of bees ripe to explode into production, of all resources.
So it makes sense to me to swing that through as fast as over investing maybe up to three (3)
months of time and effort in assessing what you actually have as a colony. And then there is the
element of apiary consistency to consider. Personal choice of mine is to know know which line is
where, as in location.
All that said I am guilty of spending > 6 man-hours filling and sanding a 40yr old whiteant ridden
box... just because I can ;-)
Bill
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They cost about $28 from what I've seen including postage. That's a decent sum of money for my poor self especially if I start to think of having one for all my hives, we're talking a good $800 or so.
The swarms can be slow to start up and there is some guess worked involved with them. I don't really know what kind of genetics I'm dealing with, and their tendencies are different as a young swarm hive compared to a fully established honey production hive.
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Good to hear from both you beeks, Bill and LJ
... back@ya Van :thumbs up:
(edit)
Etailia, Bill, you have red bees??????Red, counter striped I am guessing. That would be cool. Thanks for input on Kangaroo island. I like to know stuff even if you are across the planet. Enjoy the warm temps,,,, flowers that I long to see.
Blessings
.... more orange than red Van, I am very sure you guys up there would have similar as essentially they are
merely golden italians with some colloquial language thrown in. It's our "new age" b'keeps naming them
so, and ya know us ol' furtz just gotta go with the flow, so to speak ;-)))
The younguns own a ginger coloured hairy thorax and are quite striking to the eye in resembling tbe collar
ruff on a Kelpie dog, hence the "red kelpie" thing. As foragers they do own a darker wider band of yellow
with very defined black markings.
I don't like to read weeping so I'll stay quiet about our 360+day b'keepin' only to say it was an excellent
2017 with 2018 starting out with what may turn out to be our dryest wet season yet... the bees are
reeling in blossom from all over. Happy Days ;-)))
Bill
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(Van; Those small clusters are caused by the queen not laying properly during the months of July and August.)
ARbeekeeper,, thank you for input, from a local that is most important,,,refer to above paste: that was my point, sorry I did not make that more clear. I use plastic
insulated tops, screened bottom boards that are closed, not sealed though. One dead out in more detail: my cordovan queen was replaced, supersedure in Sept. I suspect as I did find an open queen cell. The new queen did not get mated, gin clear spermatheca upon necropsy. Obviously she could not lay workers and made no attempt to lay drones in September. Yes, this hive had a small cluster void of a laying queen and freeze killed.
The other hive, freeze killed had a small cluster, for reasons I could not determine. Cordovan queen was fertile, milk white spermatheca upon necropsy, there was froze brood in the hive with workers spread out trying to warm, again, not enough bees.
Due to such a fall dearth in N. Arkansas, I feed 2X in Sept,,, not every day as I did not won?t to initiate a laying frenzy. All hives currently have adequate stores, full frames of untouched honey as of last week and the 60F day?s just prior to this negative 1F days.
I made one alternation, after discovery of a condensation kill, I have full open entrance, 10 frame std. Lang, screen bottom closed. Hope this was in favor of the bees and evaporated moisture.
Stay in touch neighbor.
Blessings
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Van,
Sorry for your losses. I know how it feels.
Jim
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Here in the northern US the biggest selective pressures are winter and Varroa. Secondary selective pressures are tracheal mites and viruses. I would rather get bees that have taken those losses and been selected for resistance to those things that buy treated southern bees that have not been. Feral bees are severely selected for all survival traits. In Australia you aren't really dealing with those life and death survival issues. Small hive beetles seem to be you biggest pest. I prefer feral bees here. If I was there I might prefer gentle domestic bees...
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MB (would rather get bees that have taken those losses and been selected for resistance to those things that buy treated southern bees that have not been.)
Agreed, I purchased some survivor queens for 2018 with your above quote as basis of thought for my purchase.
Blessings
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MB, is that because feral bee swarms are likely to be more resistant to the weather and varroa?
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Here in the northern US the biggest selective pressures are winter and Varroa.
Granted Michael... and therein lies a scientific approach to restoring
ye days of olde for the Americas - ban the beekeeper :-))
Like, put some thought to campaigning for the removal of ALL managed Apis
for say 3 years (?) with a restocking program to begin then, using
only the local mongrels with transport across borders being highly selective.
Within 10 years you guys would be back where y'all were prior to '87..!
And just think of the global good a pulsating import market for honey
the USA could create..?.. win win, hey ;-)))
Bill
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Bill,
3 years with no bees in the US!
We would put our fruit growers out of business. We would only have imported fruit at a very high price.
Won't happen.
I did hear that India could not afford to treat their bees when varroa first hit them and it took 3 years to get their hives back to full level with no treatment.
Jim
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Bill,
3 years with no bees in the US!
No panic..
... not so bad when you consider the boom in the moonshine business, as
withdrawl kicks in, for some :-))))
We would put our fruit growers out of business. We would only have imported fruit
at a very high price.
I know... "global good" and all that like, yeh :-))))
[polishes up the Aussie dollar]
Jim
maaaaate, I say maaaaaaaate, the ferals will save y'all ;-))))
Bill
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[...] put some thought to campaigning for the removal of ALL managed Apis
for say 3 years (?) with a restocking program to begin then, using
only the local mongrels [...]
As the European Honey Bee isn't a native species within the Americas - from where do you think the local mongrels/ 'ferals' originated ... from managed colonies perhaps ?
LJ
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[...] put some thought to campaigning for the removal of ALL managed Apis
for say 3 years (?) with a restocking program to begin then, using
only the local mongrels [...]
As the European Honey Bee isn't a native species within the Americas - from where do you think the local mongrels/ 'ferals' originated ... from managed colonies perhaps ?
LJ
THey did of course originate from managed colonies. I think we can bring back feral bees and even managed bees without the use of treatment at least on the local level. I now have a hive that was booming with orientation flights yesterday, that has had no treatment in years. I am glad I managed to snag that hive. It is pretty gentle also. I plan on making splits and such from that hive and moving the splits to different locations just to see how that affects the honey taste even though they will be less than one mile apart.
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Feral bees are severely selected for all survival traits. In Australia you aren't really dealing with those life and death survival issues. Small hive beetles seem to be you biggest pest. I prefer feral bees here. If I was there I might prefer gentle domestic bees...
The biggest advantage I can see with feral bees is they have evolved to survive in the local climate. We have areas of Australia that can receive snow 12 months of the year and large parts that rarely see temps below 70, parts that receive 12" rainfall annually and areas that receive that in a week. Bees were introduced to Aus 200 years ago so you could be looking at 200 generations of evolution to suit the local climate. To reproduce they need to successfully over winter or get through a extended summer dearth depending on location and then build up sufficient numbers and stores to allow successful swarming. The only trait really missing in the natural selection process is gentleness.
If you are a migratory beekeeper, moving bees every few months chasing the flow 12 months of the year then I doubt there would be any advantage in feral bees. In a stationary yard then local feral bees could have 200 years of selection to best survive in the local conditions.
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There is some miss understanding about evolution, honey bees and the so called survivor bees also called feral swarms. Apparently there is an understanding or rather misunderstanding that feral swarms have obtained through evolution superior traits to apiary breed bees.
By definition the history of a feral swarm is unknown. Did the swarm originate from a local apiary or did the swarm originate from a feral hive that has been in existence for 100 years or maybe only feral for a couple of years. There is an assumption that the feral swarm is superior. This is not a correct assumption.
There is also a lot of text about evolution and a connection is assumed with a feral bee swarm. A feral swarm has an unknown history, do not assume the bees have evolved. If you obtain a feral swarm such as Wallace and maintain this colony chemical free then then you have a thriving colony and by all means make splits. Breed for the best bees.
Evolution takes thousands of generations, so with honey bees understand this could take a lifetime. Yet I see beeks text of evolution as if this takes a few years. Yes evolution caused by mutation can be created within a single breeding. But to disseminate this positive mutation through the apiary and eventually the world will not happen in a lifespan. We are talking, Varroa and virus a double threat, which completely complicates evolution. Evolution is a slow process, this is why extinction of so many species occurs, they cannot evolve fast enough. The honey bees, well I have hope for due to the fact so many are doing their part. Yes we will opinion the threat and the no treat methods. To me, I can see assurance in both methods but that is not what this thread is about. It?s evolution verses apiary bred.
Is there truly a honey bee that has evolved survival techniques that can last from now to eternity, completely inert to Varroa, virus, bacteria foul brood, European hornet, Nosema and approx. over 100 invasive virus, bacteria, mold, and fungus that are not mentioned. The evolution of the honey bee is a continuing process. An organism vanishes when cellular anxiety exceeds evolution.
So in the future when you text of evolution of honey bees, understand maybe not in this lifetime. My point, show me that evolved queen bee and I will buy her, multiply her and give the queens away for survival of the bees.
Blessings
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Thankyou Van...'nother well presented insightful view I can live with. Really I was just pulling
Michael's leg - and then Jim's - as the thought of VD in this Country is just too distressing to
go there. But I do own a serious view on feral genetics in this Country.. read on.
For @220... there are solid flora management reasons behind "no managed colonies within
State forests" policy in Queensland, but the axis it all swings off is found in preserving our
native bees, among them the communal Tets. Myself I am right behind the policy to the point
that were it possible I'd sanction gassing all feral Apis.
That said they are however an excellant resource for building apiaries provided you change the
genetics within a brood cycle. Anything else and your management only contributes to the problem
of feral Apis in this Country as by their very nature they are antsy - to other bees - and swarmy
lil' mothers.
Bill
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While it might take thousands of generations for a breed to evolve in isolation that isn't the case with feral bees.
The fact that just about every recognised breed has been introduced means the genetic diversity is already there. The traits from each breed that took thousands of years to evolve in isolation are all there in the genetic pool and no doubt the traits that give them the highest chance of survival in the local climate quickly become dominant.
I cant speak for anyone else but when I make reference to feral bee evolving this is what I am referring to. I have no doubt if you were to compare truly feral bees from my area of Aus where we have 48" rainfall 60+ nights below freezing and regular snow with somewhere like the north of WA where the rainfall might be less than half and temperatures rarely drop below 20c there would be marked genetic differences. It might not be evolution in the classical sense but no doubt the local bees have evolved to best suit the local climate.
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I think we can bring back feral bees and even managed bees without the use of treatment at least on the local level.
That would be better than doing nothing, sure, but I would suggest that a far better solution than relying on so-called 'ferals' lies in renewed importations from the largest gene pool of Apis in the world - from mainland Europe. Sue Cobey has been trying her level best to do just this, despite obstructions from government.
But any long-term sustainable solution would also require an alternative approach to professional queen-rearing: https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=50385.0
LJ
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While it might take thousands of generations for a breed to evolve in isolation that isn't the case with feral bees.
(edit)
It might not be evolution in the classical sense but no doubt the local bees have evolved to best suit the local climate.
Soooo... following your 'logic' a bloke would be blowing the $1200 against the wall in adding
Kangaroo or Rottnest (Island) genetics to a FNQ* apiary?
Sorrrrry... I struggle in following your thinking, and add it is not for me to know where you get
your information from but I sure as heck do know folk as the fella that wrote the submission
linked to would be among the many hecklers such would draw were you to present your views
among peers, publicly.
http://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=ffdf609f-1574-49b7-b796-0350aeaf200f
Bill
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FNQ* is Far North Queensland as opposed to "Queensland", North Queensland
and Western Queensland, all of which have significantly variant localised
climates.
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Thank you Bill, quote from your generously provided link:
(the Solomon islands there were 2000 hives in 2003 by 2008 there were 5 hives left and no ferals, effectively wiping out the beekeeping industry.)
Eliminating all feral hives, destroying 2,000 colonies and leaving only 5 itialian colonies. Destruction by Asian honey bees and introduction of varroa. Don?t confuse the Asian honey bee with the Asian hornet, the Asian honey bee looks like the typical itialian but smaller.
Think about that, only 5 colonies remain and it took only 5 years to wipe out the entire isolated, ?evolved? honey bee colonies.
Thanks again Bill, thumbs up high fer ya fella.
Blessings
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So how is the introduction of a species that can not successfully mate with the bees that were there relevant. If they could successfully mate then no doubt the asian genes would quickly become dominant in the feral colonies.
I fail to see how the submission you linked in any way counters the arguement that the genetic makeup of truly feral colonies will be the best combination to survive in a area. If anything the fact that to breed the genetics they are after they have to go outside the area and breed in isolation supports it. If the traits they are looking for were the best suited then they would have quickly become dominant in the feral colonies.
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@220 wrote:
So how is the introduction of a species that can not successfully mate with the bees that were there relevant. If they could successfully mate then no doubt the asian genes would quickly become dominant in the feral colonies.
Being fixated on a set view you are missing the message of an example which clearly shows how
dominance works. Populist to near zero in five years is no mean feat.
Find yourself a sunflower field adjacent some bush(scrub) to observe the activity of ferals (ye olde
English Black Bushbee) among the native bees and those from the pollinator's boxes (Apis m*) set
to the field.
I fail to see how the submission you linked in any way counters the arguement that the genetic makeup of truly feral colonies will be the best combination to survive in a area. If anything the fact that to breed the genetics they are after they have to go outside the area and breed in isolation supports it. If the traits they are looking for were the best suited then they would have quickly become dominant in the feral colonies.
The assumption cultured queens would dominate in significant numbers among feral colonies is
the error in your 'logic', historicly the feral queens are installed with their genetics invading the
apiary. It's exactly the case that ferals do not own desired traits which drives a whole Queen
supply industry in this Country. Cut open a few feral colonies to see that for yourself.
As said, the ferals are antsy/swarmy lil' mothers, responsible apiaists select lines denying those
traits.
As much as I loathe Googl'rs you yourself are quite capable of educating yourself amongst the
work of others;
http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/genetics.html
In closing..?.. it is exactly mindsets as yours that place neighbouring apiaries in danger of
unwanted genetic change - and extra work for the apiarist - through what I see as sheer
lazyness in management, deferring to arguement as excuse for that demeanour.
Off topic as it is I have had discussion with a migratory sideliner b'keep justlast Saturday
whereon he claimed SHB built for strong "survivor" colonies.
We had no SHB here and now maybe 2 months after he rocked up with his
3 colonys on the melon patch two of my nursed colonies are riddled with them. Worse, he
hasn't been near them since a check a week after dropping them off and had no intention
of doing so until after the wet season, maybe as late as midApril. I've written the incident
up in snailmail as I'll bet my last buck the fella is not even registered.
Such a management style could be behind the africanisation of colonies in States of the
USA, yet certainly it is such an attitude that will lead to the further degradation of managed
colonies in this Country.
Can I say "Flow [tm]" here??.... ummmm.
Bill
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{So how is the introduction of a species that can not successfully mate with the bees that were there relevant.}. Maybe this post was not directed at me, just clarifying.
I did not mention mating, I didn?t even imply such. The Asian bees robbed and starved the itialian hives to death, all 1,995 hives as well as all known ferals.
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Being fixated on a set view you are missing the message of an example which clearly shows how
dominance works. Populist to near zero in five years is no mean feat.
I still fail to see why you are using the introduction of another species of bee that brought with it the triple threat of direct competition, predation and new parasites to support your arguement that any commercially breed bee is better adapted to local conditions than local ferals.
I didnt think we were discussing the ability of bees to handle competition, diseases and pest they have evolved in isolation from rather the exact opposite.
You mention SHB and your experience is exactly why local ferals are best equipped to thrive in local conditions.
Your hives have been overrun with their arrival yet the hives you think they came with are doing fine. No doubt due to SHB being endemic to the area the hives came from and the bees having time to evolve and deal with them.
Yes I have cut open feral colonies, I have a couple I am comparing to my more cultured queens. Under the same managed so far they have not proven to be any more predisposed to swarming, they are probably the calmest colonies I have. Honey production is on par and the only noticeable difference being they were more frugal with their winter stores and slightly slower building up coming out of winter.
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@220
"I still fail to see why"..
Of course you do... and there is why so many @ncient b'keeps an' the current commercial
(business) operators are so inclined to be often scurriously fearful of the "new wave"... by
far the majority of whom are focused on that $12 jar of honey on their market table.
Right here is where we shout "FlowHive [tm]... hey!
There are times I an' others do wish apiary managment was indeed "rocket science".
I mentioned SHB only to reflect the attitude, one you yourself project.
The fella does not know the state of those three colonies, and could care less. "If there is
honey in them it is all good".. direct quote.
I would know more than he... just driving by!
No way could I hope to persuade folk to better manage their apiary genetics around
hygenic prolific passive productive strains, it is all I can do to look quizzically upon that
'b'owner' who laments the cost of a selectively bred queen from under the hood of
their $250+ bee suit.
Well may there bee evidence around USA and European colonies which
indicates a way forward using ferals in reducing VD - and nosema etc, I
own no "on the ground" experience to know either way. But I do know in
this Country it is a fool's game to capture and sustain feral bee genetics
within any apiary planning as a line of "new" genetics.
Bill
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Great discussion guys. Could you elaborate more on why it'd be a fool's game eltalia to capture and sustain feral bee genetics? I ask because all of my beehives are from feral beeswarms and I'm now considering what to do with them.
I'm an amateur doing the best with the limited information that I've got to make the best decision. It seems that, I shouldn't be too hung up over the genetics of my bees and their origins, more so I should be focused on how well the hive is actually performing. Some of my feral hives are of great stock; they produce ample amounts of brood and honey, and they're rather gentle. I imagine that, regardless of their origin these are good bees and I'm considering breeding queens from these hives. Some of my hives, are aggressive. Some don't seem to produce much honey. I'm too inexperienced to easily know to what extent this might be some genetic thing with the bees themselves, or maybe over factors that's causing a few of my hives to pretty much always be struggling and just pulling through, to never be booming. I figure these hives might do better if I replaced their queen.
I could also import some queens and start my own breeding program, to replace all my queens with. I'm quite unsure of the advantages of doing this.
If all my hives came from swarms, am I, to some extent, selecting bees with genes that encourage swarming behaviour? Is swarming behaviour influenced by genetics?
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Omni,
Keep in mind that bees are super organisms and swarming is how bees reproduce. If you have a queen who swarms from a small hive with lots of room to grow, that is a problem. If the hive is 5 deep boxes high or bigger and it swarms, that is nature doing its job.
Why pay for someone else to raise queens if you are able to do it your self and you can choose the queens that have the genetics you want for your location.
Jim
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[..] If the traits they are looking for were the best suited then they would have quickly become dominant in the feral colonies.
Reading that gave me a good chuckle. Every now and again somebody displays such an ability to see through the fog generated by fashionable enthusiasm.
In order for Natural Selection to proceed, a genetic mutation must occur which confers some kind of survival advantage (otherwise there will be no selection) - and this advantage must be expressed by an organism prior to mating in order that this advantage be passed on to it's offspring (otherwise such selection will not be conveyed onwards to others). Such selection (as we understand it) has been taking place for millions of years, and therefore without human involvement.
The Treatment-Free Beekeeping movement engages in a process of actively selecting colonies which are considered to have survived to a greater or lesser degree from a varroa mite infestation and then propagating from these, claiming that this process employs the principles of Natural Selection - but it does not - such action is that of Human Selection.
If indeed some kind of advantage prior to mating had been created, then that advantage would already have begun to steadily and progressively sweep throughout a whole geographical region without any requirement for human involvement - i.e. it would have taken place 'automatically' and 'in the background', so to speak. The fact that this has not yet happened is, I think, evidence that an advantage by genetic mutation has not yet occurred. Hopefully one day it will.
LJ
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LJ,
I beg to differ with you.
If what you are saying were true then old feral hive would not exist. I have removed lots of feral hives with very black comb, lots of honey and lots of bees.
If we did not have SHBs and wax moths, you could say a new swarm moved into d comb but around here the comb is destroyed pretty quickly if it is not protected.
Black comb doe not happen in one season.
Jim
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LJ wrote:
> Reading that gave me a good chuckle....
Likewise, for all of the reasons you cite and then some, despite
the obvious typo which also had me chuckling ;-)
Bill
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(edit)
I ask because all of my beehives are from feral beeswarms and I'm now considering what to do with them.
You know this for fact at your location?
Bill
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lj
If indeed some kind of advantage prior to mating had been created, then that advantage would already have begun to steadily and progressively sweep throughout a whole geographical region without any requirement for human involvement - i.e. it would have taken place 'automatically' and 'in the background', so to speak. The fact that this has not yet happened is, I think, evidence that an advantage by genetic mutation has not yet occurred. Hopefully one day it will.
I am not sure this is true. There are pockets out there that people are keeping bees off treatment and some have lower losses that those in those same areas that are treating. Everything seems to be fluid.
There are places where one year or every other year treating was enough that now require 4 treatments a year to get the same or worse results. Papers like this show that it is being studied and that the sientist still don't know how and why some stuff works and some does not but that it is not all due to gene changes.
http://elsakristen.com/docs/LopezUribe_2017_Apis_diversity_immunity.pdf
So if they don't know why some bees are able to say, "reduce mite reprodcuction" then to make an arguement that it is purely gene change is just a theory along with all the other theories like small hive and spread out hives. The truth is something is differrent with some bees compared to others and that can be seen but the why is a guess. That it takes thousands of years might depent on if you are talking resistance or tollerance, learned behaviour or genetic change.
Nature is in a constant battle even in humans and that is why flue shots are only 30 percent effective and have to be developed each year for what is new.
I am more with jims position on this and am not so convinced that things can't adapt to pressure like mites or virouses in a very fast rate and even if adapted things can change just like the mite changed its host. In the war there are times that one side wins and the other side loses but on the bees there is enough evidence that there are places where they are holding thier own when compared to places that are treating and those places getting worse. It is not much of a strech to say that it is pretty simular for both depending on the enviroment and what stress factors are around at the time. If trees are studied, they could be genetic mirrors but a florida maple still may not do as well in montana as a montana maple will do though it might not take a thousand years for any root shoots from said maple to get better in montana pretty quick.
I know I don't know how it works but have sure read a lot of studies from smart people that spend full time on knowing and the still are not sure of the how and why either but can measure things like mite reproduction being reduced in certain hives and it making bees strong enough to live with mites. And they know it happened in 20 years and not a thousand years.
Cheers
gww
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>MB, is that because feral bee swarms are likely to be more resistant to the weather and varroa?
Yes.
>As the European Honey Bee isn't a native species within the Americas - from where do you think the local mongrels/ 'ferals' originated ... from managed colonies perhaps ?
I've never understood using the "non native" argument for anything. Who cares where they came from? Are they surviving? Then they are able to survive under the current circumstances. People were still discussing whether or not they were native in the 20's in the bee magazines here and no new evidence ever came to light to prove it one way or the other. So MAYBE they weren't native. Maybe the were introduced by the Vikings (I can't imagine them not bringing bees if there were none here... you can't be a Viking without mead...) or maybe the Chinese in 1421 when they brought the chickens that are now in South America and the bones that are in California...
>By definition the history of a feral swarm is unknown.
It's actually quite obvious by their size. Feral bees that are swarms from feral bees are quite small. 2/3 the size of domestic bees.
>Evolution takes thousands of generations, so with honey bees understand this could take a lifetime.
Evolution in animal breeding is irrelvant. It won't happen in our lifetime. Selection, on the other hand can take as little as one year of selective pressure. In one generation of humans we went from breeding horses the majority of which did not trot to breeding horses the majority of which would trot. It's just selection, not evolution.
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michael
I've never understood using the "non native" argument for anything.
I agree with this. I also wonder how long does it take a bee to become a wild thing that is considered native. Is it one hundred years, two hundred? Bees are not native but then again niether is an apple tree, but it now and they are not going away. In fact, most plants in america that people use were imported and so it does not matter what was started with but more what is now.
It did not take a thousand years to change the landscape but it is native now and the clock can not be turned back.
Lasty, it always amazes me that people say that bees are not wild but are live stock. Bees are a little differrent then a herford cow. Though they are managed, they were wild before being managed and unlike a herford, they have kept a wild population even while their was a managed population.
That wild population has adjusted from when the mites switched its host and even the mite when switching host did not take thousands of years to happen. It happened all most instantainiously. the studies that show that after a pretty hard initial hit when the mite arrived that some wild populations are at the same place they were before the mite. this took what, 30 years total?
Yes, all hives still die of mites but they also die of starvation and queen loss and lots of things and dieing is part of living. The question is not if they die when untreated or treated, cause they do but more can they be managed in a profitable way and enough live that it is still worth doing.
Cheers
gww
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michael
I've never understood using the "non native" argument for anything.
I agree with this.
I can't believe I'm reading this ...
Because the European Honey Bee is non-native to your country, they will have had to be imported, yes ?
And from whom will they have been imported ? Not from your average beekeepers, but from breeders who specialise in exporting - thus your nation's stock will have originated from - what - maybe a hundred suppliers ? But whatever the figure is, you will have imported a relatively small number of lines compared with the number available throughout mainland Europe.
And then your own commercial breeders - in pursuit of 'breeding only from the best' - have proceeded to diminish even that number.
If you don't understand this - then I really don't know what else to say.
LJ
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michael
I've never understood using the "non native" argument for anything.
I agree with this.
I can't believe I'm reading this ...
Because the European Honey Bee is non-native to your country, they will have had to be imported, yes ?
And from whom will they have been imported ? Not from your average beekeepers, but from breeders who specialise in exporting - thus your nation's stock will have originated from - what - maybe a hundred suppliers ? But whatever the figure is, you will have imported a relatively small number of lines compared with the number available throughout mainland Europe.
And then your own commercial breeders - in pursuit of 'breeding only from the best' - have proceeded to diminish even that number.
If you don't understand this - then I really don't know what else to say.
LJ
The first bees to come to America from what I understand came with the colonists and they were of the German type. I think they came with people bringing their own bees back from Europe with them. They brought what they had. Eventually these bees went feral. The Italians and everything else came after that and of course some of them went feral. I would imagine that our wild bees come from thousand if not more lines. Now our domesticated bees that most keep probably come from very few lines.
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(edit)
I ask because all of my beehives are from feral beeswarms and I'm now considering what to do with them.
You know this for fact at your location?
Bill
Bit of an exaggeration, I have about 28 hives, about 21 came from swarms, the others were derived from a beekeeper who abandoned his bees and has unknown origins.
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lj
Maby you will never understand but I think Bwallace covers it pretty good and I don't see it much differrent the from where you are. Our bees are probly your bees plus a few add that got lose from brazil that we wish we didn't have now. You could make the same case in france where abby warre was big on getting Italian stock added to what he had just like britton and germany probly did.
Even if what you imply is true, it would not have anything to do with native or not, African bees were native but have differrent genes. So if you are talking of a gene bottle neck, that is differrent then being native or not. I would say the link I provide covers some gene bottle neck but that happened with all the genes already being here and has nothing to do with native or not. I am sure you have the same where you are.
Cheers
gww
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If indeed some kind of advantage prior to mating had been created, then that advantage would already have begun to steadily and progressively sweep throughout a whole geographical region without any requirement for human involvement - i.e. it would have taken place 'automatically' and 'in the background', so to speak. The fact that this has not yet happened is, I think, evidence that an advantage by genetic mutation has not yet occurred. Hopefully one day it will.
LJ
If we are talking bees developing close to 100% mite resistance in a single generation then a mutation is the only way. Selective breeding with colonies that show a slightly better resistance will eventually lead to a more resistant bee but it certainly wont happen in a few generations and no doubt it is happening in feral hives as well with only those that have survived and thrived for what ever reason reproducing.
Taking mites out of the equation my responses are more aimed at the evolution of feral colonies to local conditions.
In most areas of the world where honey bees were not native and introduced it wasnt a single breed of bee that was introduced but multiple breeds that had all evolved in isolation to best suit their native area.
In the wild you are not going to have 3, 4 or how ever many different breeds that have been introduced surviving as different strains rather a local mutt that has taken on the most suitable traits for the area they are in from the available genetic pool. If a specific trait of a carni gives them a greater chance of survival then if that trait is available in the local gene pool it will quickly become dominant. You are not waiting 1000y for italians to mutate or slowly develop it.
The local mutts will quickly evolve into the most suitable for the location, they obviously wont be the perfect bee for that location as they havent had thousands of years of evolution but they will be as good as the genetic pool will allow them to be for that location.
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Bwallace, I know what you are saying about settlers bringing bees from Europe is true, but I'm just trying to imagine how they were able to transport a bunch of bees on a sailing ship for voyages of months, then jostle them over makeshift roads to wherever they were going without major problems -- with the bees and with fellow passengers. Maybe they were VERY gentle bees.
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{>As the European Honey Bee isn't a native species within the Americas - from where do you think the local mongrels/ 'ferals' originated ... from managed colonies perhaps ?
I've never understood using the "non native" argument for anything.}
LJ was not making an argument as implied, stated by MB.
LJ is an organic chemist, understand this man is kindly offering his expertise. The man across the pond, LJ, could exercise his knowledge in a MARCO, MICRO, CELLULAR, MOLECULAR, or ATOMIC level with specific details to primary, secondary, tertiary, or quaternary structures. I realize this may be ?Greek? MB, however I am trying to point out the expertise is being offered in effort to perpetuate healthy bees for all. Mr. Lil John is most certainly not arguing, ?argument for anything.?
I have read above texts: my, my, there are many, to many well written text brilliantly constructed knowledgable sentences for me to quote made by many on this topic of feral hives or apirary queens. I applaud, impressed by, many, your text, but to many to individually direct to. Well done fella(s).
Blessings
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Dallas, how thought provoking, good catch. I never looked at the migration that way. This opens up new thought for me, the genetics of the original honeybees to America. Ingenious, just ingenious.
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Brother Adam developed the Buckfast line over a relatively short period. Somewhere in this thread I believe I've read language assuming one generation of bees per year. That, I believe, is not the case. Bees can "evolve" several generations in one year by selective breeding, as Brother Adam demonstrated.
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Dallas, how thought provoking, good catch. I never looked at the migration that way. This opens up new thought for me, the genetics of the original honeybees to America. Ingenious, just ingenious.
I in no way thought what I was writing was terribly profound. I was merely speculating how tolerant the fellow passengers may have been or how little bother those particular bees were. Either way, the transport of those bees was fortuitous for the agriculture in the new world and for us.
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(edit)
I ask because all of my beehives are from feral beeswarms and I'm now considering what to do with them.
You know this for fact at your location?
Bill
Bit of an exaggeration, I have about 28 hives, about 21 came from swarms, the others were
derived from a beekeeper who abandoned his bees and has unknown origins.
And you know for a fact that about 21came from local feral swarms?
Bill
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Bwallace, I know what you are saying about settlers bringing bees from Europe is true, but I'm just trying to imagine how they were able to transport a bunch of bees on a sailing ship for voyages of months, then jostle them over makeshift roads to wherever they were going without major problems -- with the bees and with fellow passengers. Maybe they were VERY gentle bees.
Or the method could simply be the beginnings of what is done today, across Australia/USA/Europe
or across the oceans, locked down and fed.
It boggles the mind to imagine free flight bees on the poopdeck - or further on, waltzing
around the buckboard of a prairie-wagon - open-feeding, without being left in the trail of
such journeys, wholly disorientated, quite probably most antsy.
Buuuuut maybe right there is where Bee Keeping 101 was birthed?
Bill
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Dallas, you are a humble man, very good trait. Don?t ya see, the migration would have been highly selective, for bees that could survive being cooped up for the long trip to America. Then we have the wagons as you mentioned, bees don?t like vibration so more selection, culling.
Wallace earlier text, correctly pointed out the German bee was introduced in the 1920, but the German black bee was meaner than a junk yard dog. There were replaced with Italians form limited sources as LJ pointed out.
When air travel was possible, Queens could have been transported quickly traveling in coat pockets thus avoiding selection (culling) of the bees only capable of being caged for the long ocean voyage. The caged bees most likely located in a dark cold moist compartment of the boat. Yes, Dallas, what you pointed out was brilliant, individualistic thinking.
Blessings
Blessings
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Just to break (My take from it) down what the study in the link I provided that studied gene make up of one area. The managed hives had more variance than the ferals. The ferals with less variance still had a stronger imune system.
The wider the variance that the ferals had, the better thier imune system. The biggest differance to the strength of the imune system was the parisite presure being put on them. The more parisite pressure, the better the bees adjusted using whatever gene variance they had. The more variances they had to work with, the better they did.
We may not have quite as much variance as can be found over europe but. I am sure there are some studies of areas that model this study that could prove that out or disprove it.
This study though seems to show the part that variance plays and the bigger part that putting pressure on those variances brings whatever strenght is there to the fore front. It proves out that it is the pressure bringing out the good stuff as much as it is what is started with though apparrently starting with more variance or adding more may have some binnifit.
Plus, this probly works both ways as they mites evolve differrent base on the differrent enviroment they are also in.
Which means the most in the war? I don't know. I only know that the war as far as mites are concerned has only been going on a short time in the big picture and the adjustments even if not perfect are happening pretty fast.
One other thing. This was only a study of a very small area and there was lots of bottle neck in diversity with not all bees in that area being the same. I am sure that most areas around the world would come up the same. Yes, there might be more starting variance in the origional place where our bees came from before they got here though with world travel, everything sure seems to end up every where. The other thing is, are we managing a wild thing or is a managed thing excapeing and becoming wild. The first hive to ever be managed from a wild thing happened long enough ago that out impact should have been like it was with the cow but unlike the cow, the bees grew wild right along with what we grew by managing.
The guys doing the measuring can measure what each bee has but don't know how the bees are tollerating mites. They only measure that some change has come but are still looking for the how of it.
Cheers
gww
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A little light reading for you.
Articles in the American Bee Journal on whether or not honey bees are native to North America:
https://books.google.com/books?id=29swAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA299&dq=American+Bee+Journal+%22Jeremy+Belknap%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAGoVChMIgJus0IOxxwIVFBKSCh2NFwF7#v=onepage&q=American%20Bee%20Journal%20%22Jeremy%20Belknap%22&f=false
2008 study showing that feral bees are a distinct genetic population:
http://www.dissertations.wsu.edu/Dissertations/Summer2008/d_delaney_070108.pdf
1995 study showing the same:
https://academic.oup.com/jee/article-abstract/88/5/1216/2216395
Another link to the 1995 study in case that one is broken or not available:
http://beesource.com/point-of-view/africanized-honey-bees/southeastern-united-states-honey-bees/
Comparing traits and genetics of pre and post varroa bees:
http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/naldc/download.xhtml?id=27253&content=PDF
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Woah, so there's some proof that feral bees do have different genetic pools than apiarist bees. How interesting.
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Thank you, MB, lots to read, gonna take me a while to read all the info.
{Woah, so there's some proof that feral bees do have different genetic pools than apiarist bees. How interesting.}. Mirage, of course,,,, there are differences from one apiary to another among mitochondrial dna, so it is a gimmy, as they say. Understand, I have no adversity to feral or apiary raised. I am mainly interested in the given traits of bees in my apiary and espically varroa resistance if I can every get my hands on such.
If I have to climb trees or travel, apirary or feral is OK with me. The end game TO ME is a gentle chemical free survivor bee that produces honey and winters well. I think, it?s gonna be a while,,,, but literally any day a queen could emerge or be discovered. The new mite bitter queen sure has my attention.
Thanks again MB for your links.
Blessings
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@omnimirage
.... more like Battle of the Book Binders being tuned into.
Somehow Michael brings to the page an image of that SalvoArmy captain
frothily ranting at the door of the pub during the Friday night "six oclock swill".
https://academic.oup.com/jee/article-abstract/88/5/1216/2216395
"Analysis of mtDNA haplotypes showed that 4% of the 142 commercial breeder queen colonies were maternal descendants of Apis mellifera mellifera , a subspecies that was imported into the United States by the 17th century but is no longer used commercially. The other 96% were probably descendants of A. m. ligustica. or A. m. carnica, subspecies imported in the 19th century which are still sold as commercial strains"
Despite the use of "probably" you now have a guide of sorts to assist
in determining the origins of those 21 swarms. There is bound to be
similar study done around Aussie ferals to be felched outa Guggle.com...
...one I have a faint memory of being a Tassie piece of research claiming
their ferals are the only direct descendants of the English Black Bee, the
starter for our mainland BushBee aka "ferals".
Whatever...
I'd return you to your opening paragraph from your original post to say
yet again the feral bee is not for you, or I, nor for any responsible apiarist
in Australia.
Bill
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van
Maby visit these guys and see if you want what they have. They say they are already doing what you say you want to do. Why wait.
https://www.frosthoneybeefarm.com/
See, I don't think all problims go away with just the right queen. I watched all the guys who are treating this year that lost all their hives on a differrent forum. But these guys are doing good enough to have stuff to sell. Everybody is waiting for the magic pill but there is no such thing and that is why the winter loss rate is in the 20 to 30 percent range no matter what you do. Yet there are some in some areas making six hundred per hive with out treating and with out buying anything from out side thier apary and with out treating. I don't say it works everywhere. There were states last year that had 50 percent loss while treating. But in your state this place is surviving and so maby you could too.
What I do is look around at the possibilities and then try the things others prove out. Even if it does not work for me, I know it can work and so figure it must still be something I don't know yet in management. I then decide what it is worth to me or if there are other routes that seem easier.
I guess my point is.
I think, it?s gonna be a while,,,, but literally any day a queen could emerge or be discovered.
It isn't going to be a while cause people are already doing it with queens that have already emerged. I don't say that means it will work for me, in my area (Though it is so far).
The thing about experiances is that if you look at the stuff collected by state, not even the guys keeping bees in exactly the same way have the same death rates. Go to the bee imformed site and look at the numbers they collect. If it proves one thing, it proves there will never be that perfect queen and that bee keeping is always going to be a little hard.
Cheers
gww
Ps I don't mind if somebody treats and feels like it is helping them. My view is the guy doing the work gets to decide. I just don't discount out of hand those that are doing something differrent then me and being happy with it as it not being true. I believe the guy who I mentioned earlier that made six hundred per hive and does not treat.
Ps ps Hi bill
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Bless you GWW, neighbor. I will obtain this beautiful stock from your link,,, chemical free, yes, yes, yes.
Thank you, Sir.
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[edit]
The new mite bitter queen sure has my attention.
G'day Van.. would you clean this up for us non USA engrish types, please?
Issat "bitter" as in tastes foul...
or intended to read "biter" which signifys a style of personal attack in Australia?
The latter is what I got from reading the article yet little comment has been
made on how the progeny is so effective or whether the queens bitterness
towards mites is the attraction.
Thanks again MB for your links.
Academia is whats binds the thought of the practical into reality but
today's Internet has proved a host for those of bent on fame to complicate
the reality with wads of often dubious reference... if only in the style of
language used. Like, one I quickly read was an abstract for starters and then
used "probably" wrapped as a Fact... those go straight in the bin in my book.
I personally have had a gutful (gripes) of "Black Hole" theorists and
quantum mechanics wannabees to last me what lifetime I have left.. heh ;-)
....rant done.
Thanks maaaaate ;-)
Bill
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Yes Sir, Mr. Bill, please excuse my English, yes I write on an 8th grade level, but standard on the web.
Actually BITTER is an unpleasant taste, however biter would be more correct, but the colloquial term is BITTER as understood as a queen bee that produces worker offspring that attack viciously, biting the mites. The queen does not attack mites to my knowledge, just the offspring.
English is very confusing, George Carlin Circa 2,000;
In English Little is spelled with six letters L I T T L E contrary to big which is spelled with three letters
B I G. So little is twice as big, confused, well now you get an A in English.
More confusion, a standard lid for a 10 frame Lang hive is called a telescoping lid; a flat lid with sides about 2 inches. Telescope is Latin meaning tele (distance) scope (to view) so how in the heck is this lid referred to as a TELESCOPING lid. I dunna no, sumptom funie to me, as spoken in dat dar local tung. Hope to make you laugh. :)
Blessings
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"Hope to make you laugh. "....
Indeed I shalt hauleth my B I G A off to start
my day amongst bees lest I kack* meself laffin'..!
You're a true gem good buddy ;-)
Bill
--
* accidental bowel opening
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I'd return you to your opening paragraph from your original post to say
yet again the feral bee is not for you, or I, nor for any responsible apiarist
in Australia.
Bill
Can you present an argument for why? I'm currently deciding what to do with my beehives. Using the limited information I have available, it seems best to not be concerned what the origins of the bees are, and instead to focus on how well the bees are actually performing. To squish the queens that are from aggressive, or low performing hives, and to split from hives that show the highest productivity.
I could buy some queens from breeders, create some sort of breeding nuc(s) and then replace all of my queens with these. If I did this, any future swarms that I capture I can replace their queen with one of my bred queens so I'd not have any swarmed queens. I'm not sure what the advantages, and disadvantages of doing so would be.
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I'd return you to your opening paragraph from your original post to say
yet again the feral bee is not for you, or I, nor for any responsible apiarist
in Australia.
Bill
Can you present an argument for why?
Sure... some are logged in this very thread. However maybe your
effort in seeking information from your local NP&WS would sway you
way more than any text I put up, that is if indeed you are sustaining
ferals.
I'm currently deciding what to do with my beehives. Using the limited information I have available, it seems best to not be concerned what the origins of the bees are,
And just how are you reaching that conclusion..?.. from absorbing
discussion on USA and British forums?
Wrong boat mate, end of.
As A reality I can - and hundreds of other experienced Aussie b'keeps
with me - tell you that using feral swarms - queen intact - is going to see
you up that proverbial creek in that traditonal barbwire canoe.
You have not yet twigged I am not (yet) arguing the USA thrust in the
thread for what some see as VD resistant 'genetics', but you do seem
to think that argument applies to your yard. It does not, far from it.
and instead to focus on how well the bees are actually performing. To squish the queens that are from aggressive, or low performing hives, and to split from hives that show the highest productivity.
Hey yeah.. but what base knowledge are you using to judge?
Like you have said you are working at night, well.. hello, Aussie bees will
get most aggressive at night, particularly in true summers.
Then you tell us you haven't been near one yard in five weeks, well,
again...hello, how could you know anything about that yard? Your best
producer may well have been robbed out, you would not know.
I could buy some queens from breeders, create some sort of breeding nuc(s) and then replace all of my queens with these. If I did this, any future swarms that I capture I can replace their queen with one of my bred queens so I'd not have any swarmed queens. I'm not sure what the advantages, and disadvantages of doing so would be.
You could be sure if you had a plan to begin with. The number of colonies
you are running, and so the time you have spent doing so, all amount to
nought as productive beekeeping when you cannot even say for sure which
of your 21colonies are true ferals... 'cos those are the ones you could be
posting about in your original question. A question which oddly enough
focuses on growth of more unknowns in doing splits.
Find out if you actually have true ferals and squish those to begin your
new plan... or a plan, any plan per se.
Bill
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Maybe I'll have to reread over the thread. What's NP&WS?
Well, probably the information that's most swaying my decision, came from a lecture on genetics that I found on youtube. The lady doing the presentation said that she deems it silly when people who, have aggressive "evil" bees, ask for her to do a test on them to confirm whether they're Africanized. She said that, in this case it doesn't matter what genes the bees have, if they're aggressive and evil then they're aggressive and evil. I'm applying this to my circumstances to mean that, if my bees are performing well and demonstrating positive qualities, then whether they're feral or not is irrelevant, because they have the traits that I'm looking for. I recognise that a lot of this discussion isn't relevant to my circumstances and that it's a lot different here in South Australia. I've got it a lot easier, from what I'm gathering.
Knowledge that I've picked up mostly from forums and youtube, so a limited amount.
I've been working with these bees for years now. Unfortunately, in my primary yard I didn't document which hives were which, and so in the confusion of changing apiary sites, I no longer know which bees are which. I noticed back then, that some of the hives just perform better than others, and some are more aggressive than others. Since there is uncertainty with these bees, I am unsure how to proceed with it, but there are some hives that seem to just be doing quite well whereas many others are in question. I have another site which I've been working on for years and have gotten familiar with the bees. Out of all those, there's two hives that I can say with a reasonable amount of confidence that they're both quite productive and gentle. One of them I can say with a decent amount of confidence that they're quite aggressive and mean. And it was five months, not five weeks, and that site just had two swarms that I captured two springs ago and I'm not familiar with them and I check on my other bees more regularly.
I need to have an idea of the advantages and disadvantages before I can construct a plan. Why does it all amount to nought? I cannot say for sure if any of the 28 hives are ferals or not. Heck, even the swarms I captured could have came from a beekeeper. Yes, I started thinking about this due to desiring to split colonies, which has got me exploring the genetic side of beekeeping. And I have no way of determining whether any of my 28 hives are "true ferals", or not. How would I know? What is a true feral beehive?
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Maybe I'll have to reread over the thread. What's NP&WS?
National Parks & Wildlife Service.
You have missed or are ignoring a most relevant point I made earlier.
Feral bees are aggressive to other bees on the forage, to the point
it is believed they are responsible for examples of our native flora to
go extinct. How a feral colony behaves for you is irrelevant.
Bill
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>Telescope is Latin meaning tele (distance) scope (to view) so how in the heck is this lid referred to as a TELESCOPING lid.
Things often get more than one step removed from the original. Telescope, of course was a device to see things far away. Since most of them were very long they were cumbersome to carry. Someone figure out that if you made multiple tubes of slightly smaller dimensions and put them together inside each other, you could make a long telescope very short to carry. So the word telescope also came to mean when something fits inside of something else... We have tons of these in English. Some even more steps removed... Why is the sound of someone passing gas a "raspberry"? It has to do with cockney rhyming slang. "Raspberry tart" rhymes with "fart" so "Raspberry" becomes "fart". "Bread and honey" rhymes with "money" so "bread" becomes "money".
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Bwallace, I know what you are saying about settlers bringing bees from Europe is true, but I'm just trying to imagine how they were able to transport a bunch of bees on a sailing ship for voyages of months, then jostle them over makeshift roads to wherever they were going without major problems -- with the bees and with fellow passengers. Maybe they were VERY gentle bees.
By the time colonists began importing bees they had winds and trade routes figured out enough that trans-Atlantic voyages lasted 'only' a matter of weeks. I think it would be a simple thing to transport colonies during the winter when bees were clustered. After that, most road trips were relatively short. The colonies remained close to the sea for decades. There are exceptions, of course.
Domestic colonies would have begun casting swarms the first year. One thing bees do well is multiply.
Transporting European bees to Australia would have been a daunting task, though. Now that's a voyage that took months in the sailing days. When did A. Melifera reach Australia?
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According to Issac Hopkins the first European Honey Bees were landed in Australia in 1838.
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According to Issac Hopkins the first European Honey Bees were landed in Australia in 1838.
Most of what I can find claims the 1820's with 1822 popping up as the year quite often. Regardless it would have been a long slow sea voyage.
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Maybe I'll have to reread over the thread. What's NP&WS?
Commonly known as National Sparks & Wildfires Service, a breeding refuge for all sorts of invasive flora and funa to whom none of the legaslative control requirements that apply to private property owners apply.
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Oh, you mean CONGRESS, Ok I understand now. Thanks
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errr...ummm... is Congress a protected species too?
Get away from the paper shufflers to mix with the actual doers, scientists
and field managers, and they can be a very helpful bunch of people.
Bill
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(edit)
Transporting European bees to Australia would have been a daunting task, though. Now that's a voyage that took months in the sailing days. When did A. Melifera reach Australia?
.... an' an Equator crossing thrown in for good measure.
Oh to bee inside the head of the bee that first realised it was upside down
yet the GPS still read a horizon..!... and the confusion rampant over
the sun on it's back and running water all year around...!...whoaaaa, tis
a wonder the shock diddun kill them..! heh :-)
Bill
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I have read that it takes a little over two weeks for a colony to adjust to the sun being in the wrong location after they have been moved across the equator. It takes me longer than that just to adjust to the change to daylight savings time.
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I have read that it takes a little over two weeks for a colony to adjust to the sun being in the wrong location after they have been moved across the equator. It takes me longer than that just to adjust to the change to daylight savings time.
Here in Queensland DS was trialled back in the '70s... the
dairy cows went the bales to find nobody home, the workers were
all out cutting hay 'cos it was now 9AM not 8AM - milking time.
Sooo.. the cows all got mastitus (blocked tits) and subsequently
died. We then had to resort to soy milk which is why that generation
of Queensland babies today are mostly weedy, allergy ridden, maths
challenged SMARTphone addicts.
DS sucks, bigtime... my story illustrates this, heh ;-)))))
Bill
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As you probably are aware, honey bees have an internal compass and can detect the magnetic poles using such for navigation. Also the three little eyes centered above main pair of eyes affords night vision.
I believe, my observation, NOT FACT: worker bees sometimes return to their hive using other means than simple eye vision. I have been body slammed many times by bees returning to their hive as if they were not looking, not utilizing eyesite at all.
Don?t confuse this with a purposeful bee slam as a warning to get back. I am talking as if a bee were flying blind and this happens all the time. I just ignore the drunk driver and the bee returns to the hive. No harm done.
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Maybe I'll have to reread over the thread. What's NP&WS?
National Parks & Wildlife Service.
You have missed or are ignoring a most relevant point I made earlier.
Feral bees are aggressive to other bees on the forage, to the point
it is believed they are responsible for examples of our native flora to
go extinct. How a feral colony behaves for you is irrelevant.
Bill
I really don't know what to think of this.
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[/quote]
Here in Queensland DS was trialled back in the '70s... the
dairy cows went the bales to find nobody home, the workers were
all out cutting hay 'cos it was now 9AM not 8AM - milking time.
Sooo.. the cows all got mastitus (blocked tits) and subsequently
died. We then had to resort to soy milk which is why that generation
of Queensland babies today are mostly weedy, allergy ridden, maths
challenged SMARTphone addicts.
DS sucks, bigtime... my story illustrates this, heh ;-)))))
So that's why we have all those things here.....i thought it was because they got bit by one of those nose-ringed, tatooed, granola kids at Whole Foods. Thanks for enlightening usand giving us a laugh.
Bill
[/quote]
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I couldn't put my response where it needed to go, Bill. Sorry 'bout that, but thanks again for the laugh.
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I couldn't put my response where it needed to go, Bill. Sorry 'bout that, but thanks again for the laugh.
... no worries DB, glad to read the software allowed the fun through ;-)
Bill
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Domestic colonies would have begun casting swarms the first year. One thing bees do well is multiply.
One thing anything does well when coming to a virgin land is multiply or die. They didn't die so they surely multiplied. Plus the colonist would have moved the hives as nucs or packages. How smooth a ride do you think packages get today?
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Back then weren't they using skeps?
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Back then weren't they using skeps?
For Australia it seems to bee of little worth in noting within
a ship's log but as our lot were Pommies I doubt they were into
skeps... more likely rum casks ;-)
I studied all this stuff back when as part of Ag. quals, so it is only
1826 stuck in my head. Yet the only reference today I can quickly
find says different... and the PDF wont load for me:
https://www.scribd.com/document/16347941/Were-honey-bees-successfully-introduced-into-Australia-in-1822
Regardless.. not only did they survive on landing, they boomed.
As did the colonialists once they sorted the occupants of this Land
out, murdered them.
For those interested today we celebrate Australia Day, a day that marks
the first landing at Botany Bay.. declaring Terra Nullus as British property.
Bill
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Today I've done some research into different honeybee species, specifically focusing on Western honey bees. I found this:
http://beesource.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/table1beetraits.png
It states that the Apis mellifera ligustica, or Ligurian, Italian honeybee is the most productive honey production wise. Is this thought to be true? All things considering, it seems this subspecies would be best for me. The disadvantages of excessive brood reading seems like it could be largely mitigated with some forethought and maybe sugar feeding. Do you guys have much thought on comparing different subspecies of Apis mellifera in environments with winters that don't reach freezing levels, and that don't have Varroa or much pests/diseases in general?
@eltalia
I've done some reading into the impact of feral honeybees on the local Australian environment. My reading did not mention anything regarding certain bee subspecies causing more damage than others. From what I gathered, feral bees cause issues two ways:
1) They set up hives in trees that other animals, mostly birds, need to survive. With feral bees taking up these hallow trees, these other animals are having issues finding a home and with it, surviving. From what I've gathered, this is the most damaging factor feral beehives are having, which isn't relevant to me because my bees are in supers rather than trees.
2) They compete with other animals, mostly native Australian bees, for resources such as nectar and pollen. Wouldn't any species of honeybee do such?
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@eltalia
I've done some reading into the impact of feral honeybees on the local Australian environment.
My reading did not mention anything regarding certain bee subspecies causing more damage than others.
At least two States I have run apiarys in run legislation that
has a basic "find and destroy" clause for ferals. There could be others
I was not made aware of.
Bill
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Today I've done some research into different honeybee species, specifically focusing on Western honey bees. I found this:
http://beesource.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/table1beetraits.png
It states that the Apis mellifera ligustica, or Ligurian, Italian honeybee is the most productive honey production wise. Is this thought to be true? All things considering, it seems this subspecies would be best for me. The disadvantages of excessive brood reading seems like it could be largely mitigated with some forethought and maybe sugar feeding. Do you guys have much thought on comparing different subspecies of Apis mellifera in environments with winters that don't reach freezing levels, and that don't have Varroa or much pests/diseases in general?
In there it says that Italians are just ok on propolis My, at once were pure Italians, had basically glued down the top of my hives. I had to struggle to pull them open.
@eltalia
I've done some reading into the impact of feral honeybees on the local Australian environment. My reading did not mention anything regarding certain bee subspecies causing more damage than others. From what I gathered, feral bees cause issues two ways:
1) They set up hives in trees that other animals, mostly birds, need to survive. With feral bees taking up these hallow trees, these other animals are having issues finding a home and with it, surviving. From what I've gathered, this is the most damaging factor feral beehives are having, which isn't relevant to me because my bees are in supers rather than trees.
2) They compete with other animals, mostly native Australian bees, for resources such as nectar and pollen. Wouldn't any species of honeybee do such?
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In there it says that Italians are just ok on propolis My, at once were pure Italians, had basically
glued down the top of my hives. I had to struggle to pull them open.
....errrrm... there is no reference supplied with that example of work. it could
have been compiled anywhere by anyone.
Propolis is a gathering exercise by the bees and so can and does vary greatly
between sites in quality and definitely in scale of scarcity between colonies at
the same site.
There are reports in those lines I would question, however for Italian over
Caucasian - in respect of propolis - I can live with.
Bill
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Sure eltalia I found the same. From what I gathered, that had more to do with feral bees living out in the wild, and had nothing to do with beee species living domesticated with apiarists.
Struggling to open a hivelid is rather standard. From what I've gathered, the higher proplosis bees coat the insides of the hives with propolis.
Which parts would you question eltalia?
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These are bees from one of my hives. They are predominately dark, but I've seen photos of bees that are dark coloured, and also allegedly Apis mellifera ligustica. Are these Apis mellifera mellifera?
https://imgur.com/a/UsWHa
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Van, I have no issue with keeping the Cordovan here. They are incredibly gentle and great honey
producer. They might shrink a bit during our summer dearth.
Other than that every queen is laying well into the late Autumn. If I continue to feed them patty subs and sugar
bricks (no syrup) the queens will continue to lay in small winter patches. We don't have high humidity here other than
on continuous rainy days which we don't have that much this and last year.
I like them so will try to keep a 3 deep going into winter this season. Then use the Italian mite mauling drones for
the I.I. process with the Cordovan queens. I hope to develop a more mite resistance Cordovan bees here. In any case my
mite removal (IPM) method will continue to reach a final conclusion this season. There are so much to do only when the weather
cooperate.
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These are bees from one of my hives. They are predominately dark, but I've seen
photos of bees that are dark coloured, and also allegedly Apis mellifera ligustica.
Are these Apis mellifera mellifera?
https://imgur.com /a/UsWHa
..... what <apisbees> said, topped up with DNA testing.
https://www.business.qld.gov.au/industries/farms-fishing-forestry/agriculture/agribusiness/grow-help-australia/techniques-costs
Bill