Author Topic: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped? (Read 8122 times)

The15thMember · « **Reply #20 on:** June 23, 2018, 02:53:17 pm »

So I did an inspection today and checked on the queenless hive that was given a frame of eggs and young brood a week ago. They did not seem to be making queen from it (no evidence of queen cups), and the hive still appears to be queenless (not full of bees, still not drawing, and no eggs). I gave them another frame of eggs and brood from my big hive (which has exploded in size lately), to give them another chance, and at least try to prevent laying workers with the open brood. What do you guys think I should do? Should I keep giving them the chance to make a queen, or should I purchase a queen for them?

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 23, 2018, 07:32:18 pm »

Member,
What you are doing is probably the best insurance either way.
When you saw the eggs, were they in the bottom of the cell (queen laid them) or on it he sides (laying worker).
Was there more than one egg in each cell. If they are on the bottom of the cells, this indicates a new queen.
Jim

Acebird · « **Reply #22 on:** June 24, 2018, 08:40:45 am »

JMO, if a hive is queenless and you gave them the right aged larvae and they didn't make queen cells then the hive is too far gone and not worth any more resources. In my opinion it is better to use the resources for a split.

moebees · « **Reply #23 on:** June 24, 2018, 12:17:52 pm »

Quote from: The15thMember on June 23, 2018, 02:53:17 pm

So I did an inspection today and checked on the queenless hive that was given a frame of eggs and young brood a week ago. They did not seem to be making queen from it (no evidence of queen cups), and the hive still appears to be queenless (not full of bees, still not drawing, and no eggs). I gave them another frame of eggs and brood from my big hive (which has exploded in size lately), to give them another chance, and at least try to prevent laying workers with the open brood. What do you guys think I should do? Should I keep giving them the chance to make a queen, or should I purchase a queen for them?

Michael Bush always recommends a frame of young brood for 3 weeks in a row. I think that is pretty good advice.

The15thMember · « **Reply #24 on:** June 24, 2018, 04:57:51 pm »

Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 23, 2018, 07:32:18 pm

Member,
What you are doing is probably the best insurance either way.
When you saw the eggs, were they in the bottom of the cell (queen laid them) or on it he sides (laying worker).
Was there more than one egg in each cell. If they are on the bottom of the cells, this indicates a new queen.
Jim

The last time I saw eggs they were properly laid, with 1 egg in the bottom of each cell and I believe no skipped cells. I am currently seeing no eggs.

Quote from: Acebird on June 17, 2018, 09:54:51 am

Quote from: The15thMember on June 15, 2018, 07:45:23 pm
I saw eggs last week, but not her,
The eggs or larvae might have been drones. I would deem this hive as a LW hive and just trash it. Make a split from your other.

Quote from: Acebird on June 24, 2018, 08:40:45 am

JMO, if a hive is queenless and you gave them the right aged larvae and they didn't make queen cells then the hive is too far gone and not worth any more resources. In my opinion it is better to use the resources for a split.

I'm personally not ready to give up on them yet, but I'm curious as to why you are. Why do you feel that they are too far gone?

Quote from: moebees on June 24, 2018, 12:17:52 pm

Michael Bush always recommends a frame of young brood for 3 weeks in a row. I think that is pretty good advice.

That does seem like a reasonable amount of time. I'll probably go with that. I guess I'll start putting out feelers for a replacement queen in case they don't make one.

I'd also like to mention that I went outside just now and this hive was doing something. I initially thought it was orienting, but they were really loud. The bees would run out of the entrances and take to the air, and they weren't doing that sort of lazy circling that orienting bees do. They were flying around in sort of big zig-zags, and some of them may have been flying away. They settled down after a few minutes, but I'm not sure if they all came back to the hive. Any thoughts as to what was going on?

beepro · « **Reply #25 on:** June 24, 2018, 05:22:01 pm »

You have already given this hive too much time and chances of making a new queen. With not that many
bees, at this point I would recommend a combine with another queen right hive. If you figure the time for this
hive to make another queen and the time has passed then it is time to make a new split from your booming hive.
Split the booming hive to make new queen. Then do a combine on this hive and the booming hive. This way you will
reset the time so that they cannot turn into a LWs hive. This hive + booming hive = one hive. New split from booming hive = a new queen hive.
Of course, you can always buy a mated laying queen for a faster process.

cao · « **Reply #26 on:** June 25, 2018, 12:48:07 am »

IMO since you have given them 2 frames of brood then I would give them another next week(or at least plan to). They might start a queen cell with the second frame that you gave them. I have done the brood frame for three weeks before and it does work(I'm doing it now with a hive). Whether you spend the resources or not is up to you. I have also just dumped out a hive earlier this year. I think that it depends on how many bees are in the hive and if you have another hive that can spare the brood. I wish you luck on the hive.

The15thMember · « **Reply #27 on:** June 25, 2018, 01:11:52 am »

Ok guys, this hive is now acting really weird. I went out to this hive with my sister at about 8:00 this evening to put in a jar of syrup. (For those of you who saw my questions concerning my rather sever reaction to getting stung yesterday, don't worry, my sister fed them tonight.

) It was getting dark and it was drizzling. My big hive was acting settled for the evening, bearding, some washboarding, with an occasional straggler returning from foraging. The queenless hive however had bees flying around, some coming and going, maybe 10-15 in the air in front of the hive at any given time. The hive sounded louder than normal for this time of day. Some of the bees that were leaving were seemingly beelining, but there were also a few bees just aimlessly flying around in my yard, like they didn't know what to do with themselves. This is going to sound weird, but I swear I saw I bee leave the upper entrance carrying something that looked like another bee. Why would they be leaving the hive at night in the rain!? What do you think is going on?

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 25, 2018, 08:33:23 am »

Member,
The bees were cleaning out the hive. There may have been an attempted robbing and they are removing the dead bees. Queen less hives are prime candidates for robbing. A hive with a feeder is also a prime candidate for robbing. By the way, the first thing the robbers try to do is kill the queen.
Why are you putting feed on at night and worse yet, in the rain? All of the field bees are in the hive, bored and they are not happy with the hive being opened. If you have top feeders with a screen you can add feed any time.
Jim

The15thMember · « **Reply #29 on:** June 25, 2018, 01:55:30 pm »

Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 25, 2018, 08:33:23 am

Member,
The bees were cleaning out the hive. There may have been an attempted robbing and they are removing the dead bees. Queen less hives are prime candidates for robbing. A hive with a feeder is also a prime candidate for robbing. By the way, the first thing the robbers try to do is kill the queen.
Why are you putting feed on at night and worse yet, in the rain? All of the field bees are in the hive, bored and they are not happy with the hive being opened. If you have top feeders with a screen you can add feed any time.
Jim

Oh, no, I'm just feeding through the hole in the inner cover, I know not to open the hive in those conditions unless there is some sort of emergency. Sorry, I probably should have mentioned how I was feeding them.

I've been concerned about the potential of robbing, given the strength of the other hive. I did mention witnessing this earlier in the day:

Quote from: The15thMember on June 24, 2018, 04:57:51 pm

I'd also like to mention that I went outside just now and this hive was doing something. I initially thought it was orienting, but they were really loud. The bees would run out of the entrances and take to the air, and they weren't doing that sort of lazy circling that orienting bees do. They were flying around in sort of big zig-zags, and some of them may have been flying away. They settled down after a few minutes, but I'm not sure if they all came back to the hive. Any thoughts as to what was going on?

Do you think that could have been robbing or post-robbing behavior? I didn't see bees moving from hive to hive or fighting, so I'm pretty sure there was not robbing going on while I was watching, but it's possible that I only went outside after the incident was mostly over. I'm going to see if I can get a robbing screen, but in the meantime, what should I do to try and keep the possibility of robbing to a minimum?

I have another question for you guys, I'm seriously considering getting a queen for this hive, since a supplier near me has queens right now, and I feel like that would be the simplest solution to the problem. In light of the fact that I'm trying to be treatment free, is it a bad idea to purchase a queen from an apiary that treats?

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #30 on:** June 25, 2018, 02:37:11 pm »

Member,
To stop the robbing, remove the food. Going into a hive can also cause robbing.
Why are you feeding? Are you in a dearth? Is there no honey in this hive?
If you buy a queen from a breeder that treats the bees, you will need to treat that hive because they do not know how to take care of themselves.
Jim

The15thMember · « **Reply #31 on:** June 25, 2018, 03:42:10 pm »

Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 25, 2018, 02:37:11 pm

Member,
To stop the robbing, remove the food. Going into a hive can also cause robbing.
Why are you feeding? Are you in a dearth? Is there no honey in this hive?
If you buy a queen from a breeder that treats the bees, you will need to treat that hive because they do not know how to take care of themselves.
Jim

I was just feeding them because I figured they were in a weakened state and I should help them out. I just went and took the jar off. It was still half full and the jar I took off yesterday was about 1/3 full. Is that a good indicator that they were not robbed?

beepro · « **Reply #32 on:** June 25, 2018, 05:38:10 pm »

You don't have to treat if you removed the mite infested brood frames into another strong hive.
After this hive is clean then you don't have to worry about the mites that much. You will see them at
each new bees emergency cycle.

Also, when the hive is weakening, the foragers and bees are dying without many new bees for replacement. At this
moment I would get them a new mated queen. This is the fastest way to keep the hive going because it will take one
month to get the new bees in unless you put in cap brood frames from the strong hive without the attaching bees for
the new queen. Yes, definitely get them a new mated queen. Then you can make splits again later on.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #33 on:** June 25, 2018, 11:30:03 pm »

Member,
The amount of feed they emptied may or may not be an indicator. I very seldom feed due to robbing problems.
How many boxes are on this hive? The best thing you can do for this hive is to reduce the space they have to protect. How heavy is this hive. If it has a lot of honey I would not bee feeding it.
Jim

Dustymunky · « **Reply #34 on:** June 25, 2018, 11:35:58 pm »

How many frames do the bees cover in this hive? If its less than five I would consider downsizing to a nuc box. Best to get a queen asap. Clock is ticking. By the time new queen is accepted and starts laying you are probably looking at 24 days minimum before new bees emerge.

The15thMember · « **Reply #35 on:** June 26, 2018, 02:14:04 pm »

Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 25, 2018, 11:30:03 pm

Member,
The amount of feed they emptied may or may not be an indicator. I very seldom feed due to robbing problems.
How many boxes are on this hive? The best thing you can do for this hive is to reduce the space they have to protect. How heavy is this hive. If it has a lot of honey I would not bee feeding it.
Jim

They are in 2 mediums currently. At last check (Saturday) they had a decent amount of honey, and there are still foragers coming in and out, some with pollen as well. I wish I'd made better notes when I went in there on Saturday as far as what was on what frames, but I had been hoping to just take a quick peek and see a queen cell on the brood frame I'd given them, so I wasn't really in full inspection mode, and didn't take very good notes. If I remember correctly though, they had a decent amount stored, and they were backfilling the empty brood combs with more nectar too, so they are probably alright. Unless of course they were robbed on Sunday.

Quote from: Dustymunky on June 25, 2018, 11:35:58 pm

How many frames do the bees cover in this hive? If its less than five I would consider downsizing to a nuc box. Best to get a queen asap. Clock is ticking. By the time new queen is accepted and starts laying you are probably looking at 24 days minimum before new bees emerge.

I don't have a nuc box, but I could get them down to 1 medium if I had to. When I was in there on Saturday, the population was way more than 5 frames worth of bees, and the 2 brood frames from the big hive that I gave them were approximately 1/2 capped worker and then 1/3 capped worker, so they have had a little bit of a population boost from that. They did undergo some sort of disturbance on Sunday though, and if it was robbing, I don't know what that could have done to the population either.

I'll probably go out and do a heft test later, although I have never done that before, so I don't know how heavy they were, and I don't know how much of a gage it will give me. But at least if the hive is really light, I'll know.

The15thMember · « **Reply #36 on:** June 27, 2018, 01:47:06 pm »

I did a heft test yesterday and honestly the hive seemed really pretty heavy. Obviously I don't have a good gage having no comparison, and I am also a total wimp when it comes to lifting things

but it seemed heavy, like I was having trouble lifting it with only one hand. I was also encouraged by the amount of traffic coming and going from the hive yesterday afternoon, which was really quite substantial.

Acebird · « **Reply #37 on:** June 27, 2018, 08:40:32 pm »

If the weight is noticeable then there is honey in it. If there was not honey in it you would have gotten that ah oh feeling.

The15thMember · « **Reply #38 on:** June 30, 2018, 02:06:06 pm »

HOORAY!! They are making queens!!

I went into the hive today and there were 8 queen cells on the frame of brood I gave them! I didn't want to screw around with the frame so I didn't inspect them super closely, but they appeared to be capped already.

cao · « **Reply #39 on:** June 30, 2018, 02:35:26 pm »

Now comes the hard part....waiting. I would say leave them alone for at least 3 weeks. 1 for the capped queen cells to hatch, 1 for the queen to take her mating flights, and 1 for her to start laying good.