Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?

[The15thMember]

Yesterday I did a brood nest inspection for the first time in 3 weeks.  On the inside face of the frame nearest the entrance was a strange looking protrusion of comb.  It's not a very nicely drawn frame, so I initially thought nothing of it and was planning on cutting it off, but upon closer investigation I noticed that it was composed of those tiny little semi-hexagonal cells like a queen cell.  It was not really peanut-shaped, it was more like vaguely cone shaped, and it was at almost a right angle to the rest of the comb.  I unfortunately did not get a picture of it.  I saw no other queen cells, or any more of this type of thing in the hive.  My question is, are queen cells always nicely peanut shaped, or in an emergency situation, can they be weirdly shaped?  Also, do the bees construct those teeny little cells on anything other than queen cells?   

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

I have seen many shapes, most at 90 degrees to the comb, that is in a downward position.  Some almost straight out from the comb, some I would call small, while others so large they will not fit in a standard queen cell holder.
Blessings

[BeeMaster2]

Like Van I have seen many shapes. The important thing is the inside cell has to be vertical. In the observation hive they often build a qc next to the glass. Due to lack of space they are often small. Sometimes they are in the comb. The bees will also float the larvae from the back of the cell with royal jelly and then build a vertical cell down the face of the comb. This is usually on old comb.
Jim

[beepro]

Sure, they will construct these out of the regular worker cells too. I've
seen them built QCs on different spot on the frame drawing out existing
worker cells.  Some will built queen cups hanging from the bottom of the
frame too.  Seems like what ever they like they will draw these cups out. They
are not always shape like a peanut as some are V shape or wide bottom rounded
shape also.  I wonder what the Q cell will look like when extra RJ is injected into a
2nd day developing larva.

[The15thMember]

I have seen many shapes, most at 90 degrees to the comb, that is in a downward position.  Some almost straight out from the comb, some I would call small, while others so large they will not fit in a standard queen cell holder.
Blessings

Like Van I have seen many shapes. The important thing is the inside cell has to be vertical. In the observation hive they often build a qc next to the glass. Due to lack of space they are often small. Sometimes they are in the comb. The bees will also float the larvae from the back of the cell with royal jelly and then build a vertical cell down the face of the comb. This is usually on old comb.
Jim

Okay, so you guys are saying that the only real requirement is that there is enough space for a vertical pupa, correct?  I.e. the workers and drones are in horizontal cells on the frame, whereas the queens are in vertical cells.  I'm really just not sure if this thing was the right shape to condone that.  Next time I go in the hive I'll see if I can get a picture of it.  That is, as long as a queen hasn't hatched out of it!     This hive has been acting a little hotter than usual lately, and it's making me doubly suspicious about this potentially being a supersedure.  I'm also speculating we're in a dearth here though, so it could be just that, although my other hive is acting calm as usual.   

[eltalia]

"Okay, so you guys are saying that the only real requirement is that there is enough space for a
vertical pupa, correct?  "
In a nutshell, yes. (no pun)
The sighting of just one weird structure could just be ambitous
(wonky) brace/bridge comb but you are on it to keep an eye on
it for now. If you wanted to really play safe the queen could be
caged for a few days till this plays out.

On a side note?
Anyone taking bets on the Horn V Howard bout tonite (USA time).
I've got 10 bucks to my fav charity Horn comes up trumps!
Again, no pun harmed in this poast. :-)))

Bill

[cao]

The sighting of just one weird structure could just be ambitous
(wonky) brace/bridge comb but you are on it to keep an eye on
it for now.

That was along the lines of what I was thinking.

[BeeMaster2]

Same here.
Jim

[The15thMember]

Alright, so I went into the hive today and got a picture of the suspected queen cell.  Do you think it's a queen cell?  Regardless of whether it's a queen cell or not, something is definitely wrong with the queen in this hive, if she's there anymore at all.  When I went in the hive this morning I saw no eggs, more drones than before, and the hive was not full of bees.  Also they aren't drawing out comb anymore.  I was unable to pull 3 frames in the brood box because they were getting too aggravated with me, but with the exception of those frames I saw no other potential queen cells, and I was able to pull those frames last week and saw nothing (though 2 of them are cross-combed and not able to be separated, so there's the chance there is something between those two that I can't see).  There's still a good bit of capped brood, mostly worker but some drone, and the uncapped larva that are present look healthy and white.  The brood pattern looks a little different than before, the capped brood is sort of a U-shaped crescent, with capped honey sort of scooping down into the brood pattern from the top bar, but the pattern is compact with hardly any cells missed.  They seem to be backfilling some of the empty brood comb with honey.  My previous mentioning of this hive acting testier than usual has continued, with them flying out at me when I just put on a jar of syrup.  When in the hive today they seemed almost panicky, reacting very strongly to being smoked, but I had to smoke them more often than usual, and they were louder and just generally seemed more upset.  There are still foragers bringing in pollen and nectar, but no where near the traffic level of my other hive, which is thriving and growing like crazy right now.  I'm also suddenly not seeing as many hive beetles as I was.  I had been catching about 10 in Swiffers weekly, and today there was only 1, and I saw none running about the hive.  So here's the questions: Given all that information, do you think that this hive is queenless now?  Do you think the thing in the pictures is a queen cell?                 

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

I don?t see a queen cell, in either pic, I do see burr comb.
Blessings

[BeeMaster2]

Member,
I don't see a  queen cell. Since your other hive is booming and bringing in nectar I would say this hive is queenless or you have a virgin queen. Add a frame of brood that has eggs for insurance.
Jim

[The15thMember]

I don?t see a queen cell, in either pic, I do see burr comb.
Blessings

Member,
I don't see a  queen cell. Since your other hive is booming and bringing in nectar I would say this hive is queenless or you have a virgin queen. Add a frame of brood that has eggs for insurance.
Jim

Ok, so it's not a queen cell.  Honestly, after seeing it again today, I was pretty sure it was not one, but I've never seen a queen cell before, so I wanted to be sure.  I'm going into the thriving hive tomorrow, so I'll take a frame out of there and put it in this hive.  Thanks for the help everyone.  I wonder what happened to my old queen.  I saw eggs last week, but not her, so I guess it's possible something happened to her accidentally during inspection.  If I did injure her accidentally though, why didn't they make a new queen, since they had eggs and young brood last week?  This seemed to happen pretty fast, at least to me, since they were basically normal last week, so is that indicative that the queen died suddenly?  Based on the evidence, what do you guys think could have happened to her, or is it just impossible to know?   

[BeeMaster2]

You may have queen cells in this hive since you do not know what they look like.

[BeeMaster2]

Do a search on queen bee cells to see what they look like.

[eltalia]

Something went awry with your attachment Jim - see attached.

@The15th Member

Those eggs and brood disappearing read very much as an LW scenario
developing so do a through examination before doing anything else.
Those crosscombs can be cut through so as to lift the frames out,
regardless of whether you have time to correct it now the frames need to
be examined, guessing at this time is folly. The crosscomb may well own
backfills as honey only so have a plan to mop up the bottom board
or better yet lift the box onto another sitting beside the stack.
Also before you start do allow for where you are in your season
planning schedule and so allow actions for that also in your Plan.
Good Luck!

Bill

[The15thMember]

@The15th Member

Those eggs and brood disappearing read very much as an LW scenario
developing so do a through examination before doing anything else.
Those crosscombs can be cut through so as to lift the frames out,
regardless of whether you have time to correct it now the frames need to
be examined, guessing at this time is folly. The crosscomb may well own
backfills as honey only so have a plan to mop up the bottom board
or better yet lift the box onto another sitting beside the stack.
Also before you start do allow for where you are in your season
planning schedule and so allow actions for that also in your Plan.
Good Luck!

Bill

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by LW scenario.  Could you please explain that?

[Bamboo]

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by LW scenario.  Could you please explain that?

LW stands for Laying Worker/s

[eltalia]

"Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by LW scenario. 
Could you please explain that?"

So it is around 28 days since you saw a general behaviour of that colony you
were happy enough with. Now there is some capped brood, no eggs, no larvae
and the remaining bees appear agro, those are some of the charactetistics
which lead to laying workers taking control of regeneration;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laying_worker_bee

It is unlikely that syndrome is wholly installed just yet but time is slipping by
to thwart it so best action is to determine the presence of a queen or
viable queencells.
In your Plan assume the worst and have a couple of frames of brood
handy, one of them to have same day eggs with young bees on the frame.
Inspect again within four days if you put those frames in.
If the inclusion begins a queen production, good... if not post the outcome
as there is a Plan B.

Bill

[The15thMember]

So today I took a frame of brood from the thriving hive and put it in the queenless hive.  The best frame I could find was about half eggs and young larva and about half capped pupa.  Hopefully the girls will make themselves a new queen.   

[Acebird]

I saw eggs last week, but not her,

The eggs or larvae might have been drones.  I would deem this hive as a LW hive and just trash it.  Make a split from your other.