Overcrowded?

[LizzieBee]

I added a medium super and queen excluder last Thursday to my two deep ten frame hive. 8 out of 9 frames are plasticell foundation coated in beeswax in the super, and just as an experiment, the 9th frame is foundationless. I opened the hive today and just looked from above at the frames in the super. there are a few bees meandering around on each frame, but none are drawing out the frames. I took the super off and looked at the upper brood box. It is 99.99% full of bees. Every frame has been drawn out in it. There are three queen cells in the upper box that I know about and they don't have anything in them. So I have some time before they attempt to swarm (if they do).  I'm wondering if the queen excluder is discouraging the bees from drawing out the honey super. Any thoughts?

Thanks for your advice in advance.

Lizzie

[Acebird]

First and foremost terminology.  Queen cup = what gets started before there is a larvae present.  Queen cell = cup with larvae inside.
I would first want to know what is in the top deep.  The answer I am looking for is honey.  If there is a band of honey about two to three inches you don't need the excluder.  If you don't see the band then leave it there and be patient.  I assume the super is a medium.

[eltalia]

@LizzieBee

No worries Liz, this is standard stuff, like a common situation.

The optimum 'fix', assuming the QE is in place to produce honey super/s,
is to take the frames of honey stores from the broodnest and move those
only above the QE at positions #4, 6, 8, 9. Those frames of capped brood
and pollon with a honeyband over you set to positions #1, 3, 7, 8 in the
broodchamber using your new foundation only frames as fills.
Having two deeps for a broodchamber only changes verticaly which
position across the broodnest the insertion happens. Broodnests by default
are conical, what you are looking at as an outcome is to build the cone wider
at it's base and also force the bees to populate the super above the excluder.

More if required. :-)

Bill

[beepro]

I would remove the QE at this point.   The queen prefer to lay in the old comb more so than the
newly drawn comb unless there isn't that much cells space left.   Then she will use the new drawn comb to lay in.  At
this point there isn't any drawn frame in the super for the queen to lay in so the QE is not needed.   Take it off to see
what the bees will do next.  When it is time to expand they will.

[LizzieBee]

@Acebird
I thought I was giving it the wrong name. I am going to take a closer look this weekend at the top box. I?ll keep an eye out for the band of honey. Thanks

@eltalia
The frames in the brood box are too deep to fit in the medium super. Otherwise I?d do that. I did that when I added the second brood box. Thanks for the suggestion.

@Beepro
I?m going determine if there is a honey band before I remove the queen excluder. Thanks for the advice.

[eltalia]

"The frames in the brood box are too deep to fit in the medium super. Otherwise I?d do that. I did that when I added the second brood box. Thanks for the suggestion."

Yes, why my intro included "standard".
How b'keeps get around their choice of mixing hardware styles
becomes like "bespoke advice".
You would have a reason for running doubledeep broodchambers
in your apiary - now your management of supering might just require
a rethink in light of your OP highlighting the impetus to build queen cups.

Bill

[moebees]

You can remove the excluder.  I usually move a couple of brood frames above the excluder to get lure them into the super.  If you replace those brood frames with drawn comb you give them more space in the brood area. Win win. 

No matter what you do they will not draw the foundation unless you have a flow on.

[eltalia]

You can remove the excluder.  I usually move a couple of brood frames above the excluder to get lure them into the super.  If you replace those brood frames with drawn comb you give them more space in the brood area. Win win. 

No matter what you do they will not draw the foundation unless you have a flow on.

Liz is not mentioning feeding any sugar so isn't the activity observed
typical of there being a flow of some degree happening?

Bill

[Acebird]

Lizzie they got to have a reason for drawing out all the comb in the top deep.  They are either going to fill it with brood or honey.
Always the best thing to do is seek out local advice on what progression the hive should be in at this time.  There had to be others that started a hive when you did.

[moebees]

You can remove the excluder.  I usually move a couple of brood frames above the excluder to get lure them into the super.  If you replace those brood frames with drawn comb you give them more space in the brood area. Win win. 

No matter what you do they will not draw the foundation unless you have a flow on.

Liz is not mentioning feeding any sugar so isn't the activity observed
typical of there being a flow of some degree happening?

Bill

What activity is consistent with a flow? Queen cups?  They can make them anytime.  The frames in the brood box are drawn?  They would have been drawn during a flow or when she was feeding but there isn't necessarily a flow now and she isn't feeding now.  So if you want to assume there is a flow go ahead.

[eltalia]

You can remove the excluder.  I usually move a couple of brood frames above the excluder to get lure them into the super.  If you replace those brood frames with drawn comb you give them more space in the brood area. Win win. 

No matter what you do they will not draw the foundation unless you have a flow on.

Liz is not mentioning feeding any sugar so isn't the activity observed
typical of there being a flow of some degree happening?

Bill

What activity is consistent with a flow? Queen cups?  They can make them anytime.  The frames in the brood box are drawn?  They would have been drawn during a flow or when she was feeding but there isn't necessarily a flow now and she isn't feeding now.  So if you want to assume there is a flow go ahead.

Friend, it is Brian who brings the chessboard into threads.
That is his role here but feel free to challenge that, it aint set
in stone like. [grins]

As you will find (in time) my focus is on the whole of a post (question)
in building a response (answer), this in order to supply the optimum
not the singular or multiples as some may choose to do.
So, given Liz is in at a latitude similar to the reverse of mine own and so
approaching the summer solstice, *and* the work done to generate her
question from those observations, her whole post has to indicate Liz (at least)
expects growth to be imminent, no?
In my experience colonys only grow during flows, times of plenty to some
degree of scale.
So yes, I assume there is a flow on, and I would welcome Liz to say different
as I might then learn something from this thread.

Bill

[Acebird]

In my experience colonys only grow during flows, times of plenty to some
degree of scale.

Really Bill?  Well let me have your ear.  Colony expansion starts in winter where I am right now.  There could be two-three feet of snow on the ground.  There ain't no nectar outside the hive.  It is a gamble, it is what bees do.  When the flow starts they will continue to expand.  After the flow stops or tapers off bees do different things depending on what is next.  It varies greatly by location.
California is a mixed bag of shells.  It stretches from deep south to far north and from sea level to the snow capped rocky mountains.  It has also been man handled to create a vast agriculture empire in desert lands.  It is kinda hard to guess what is happening to a beehive if you are not there.  Hundreds if not thousands of beehives starve because of good and plenty.
I hope you have learned something. :-)

[LizzieBee]

I did a hive inspection today. There wasn't a very consistent honey band on the upper box frames so I left the QE on. I did see small groups of bees on the honey super frames as if they were planning to draw comb. The blackberries are blooming right now and five Chinese Tallow trees will be blooming in the next couple of days. It seems like a decent honey flow. I'm hoping they'll draw comb soon.

Lizzie

[BeeMaster2]

Lizzie,
You mentioned 5 Tallow trees are in bloom. Keep in mind that your bees are flying a minimum of 2 miles in all directions from your hive and maybe as much as 5 miles if there is not much out there. There are probably 50 to 100 or more Tallow trees in their territory.
Jim

[beepro]

Ace, you are right.   There are many micro-climates here in CA.   Usually, around this time last year I'm extracting honey
already.  Now it has been a bit cooler than usual so they are still harvesting when the trees are starting to bloom.  Maybe to
leave the QE on for awhile but until there is a flow, you will not see any new comb being drawn out.   If you see sign of new white
wax then the flow is on.  Happy harvesting this season!

[eltalia]

I did a hive inspection today. There wasn't a very consistent honey band on the upper box frames so I left the QE on. I did see small groups of bees on the honey super frames as if they were planning to draw comb. The blackberries are blooming right now and five Chinese Tallow trees will be blooming in the next couple of days. It seems like a decent honey flow. I'm hoping they'll draw comb soon.

Lizzie

Simply a matter of waiting then, always a good option when one has an eye on things. :-))

Bill