Scenting - How do they know their own?

[Duane]

The first failed attempt this year at doing splits, I suspected other bees were robbing the split out the next day.  I blocked the entrance, and after awhile I came back and opened it.  Immediately about a dozen bees came out and started scenting.  Since they were just split, how do which bees know that's for them?  That is, if they just came from the parent colony, how does the split know it's for them and not the parent colony know it's for them?

Likewise, my recent experience with mating flights, a whole cluster of bees were scenting on the top and sides of the box.  Since I had made several splits, how do the bees or queen know that's their box instead of one of the others?  Is the scent like a programmable entrance device that has almost infinite number of codes that they reprogram each time they're in a different box?  What if two boxes were going on mating flights at the same time or what if I was messing with one split and they were scenting to tell their own how to get back after being disturbed at the same time a mating flight was going on with another split?

Unfortunately with the failed attempt, I found out it wasn't the bees I put in the box but the robbing bees.  I guess they were telling where to rob?  If so, how do they know that's the target for robbing rather than how to find home?

[moebees]

They know there hive by its shape, color, and surroundings.  So if your splits all look them same and are close together all in a row they may have trouble.

[BeeMaster2]

Bees also know the scent of their hive. To prove it to yourself, smoke the entrance and see what the returning bees do, they pile up outside because it does not smell right.
Virgin queens are often called to the wrong hive by scenting bees and end up being the queen of a mating Nuc they were not placed in. Heard this from a queen breeder speaker that had his virgin queens marked with numbers. They ended up 30? from the Nuc they were placed in.
Jim

[eltalia]

Try looking up "phenome recognition in bees"?
Thanks to forced viewing of Attenborough videos/docos
lately I am now "full bottle" on phenome, amongst ants
at least.

Bill

[moebees]

Bees also know the scent of their hive. To prove it to yourself, smoke the entrance and see what the returning bees do, they pile up outside because it does not smell right.
Virgin queens are often called to the wrong hive by scenting bees and end up being the queen of a mating Nuc they were not placed in. Heard this from a queen breeder speaker that had his virgin queens marked with numbers. They ended up 30? from the Nuc they were placed in.
Jim

  They have an incredible sense of smell I understand that.  But as far as locating home they are much more in tune to location, structure, color, and landmarks.  That's why they know where to pile up when you smoke the entrance.  They don't go flying off trying to find the right scent.  They know this is the spot because of landmarks.  What do they do when they first leave the hive? Orientation flights.  Those involve flying facing the hive and staring at it.  They are not learning the scent. They are learning what it looks like.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Moe, the bees conducting an orenitation flight are navigating, activating their built in GPS, I.e. earth magnetism.   Bees use land larks of course, I agree, but move a hive 4 feet and the bees will follow their GPS and fly to the old empty location as GPS has precedence.  Bees detect the earth magnetism which I call GPS and also orenitate to the sun which the bees can waggle dance with approx to the time of day an setting of the sun as the sun moves across the sky, bees adjust for this.  Incredible lil time wizards they are.  See WAGGLE DANCE OF THE HONEY BEE EXPLAINED, a pinned post.

Now understand, I agree bees use landmarks, I am just saying GPS is choice for navigation.
Blessings

[eltalia]

Bees also know the scent of their hive. To prove it to yourself, smoke the entrance and see what the returning bees do, they pile up outside because it does not smell right.
Virgin queens are often called to the wrong hive by scenting bees and end up being the queen of a mating Nuc they were not placed in. Heard this from a queen breeder speaker that had his virgin queens marked with numbers. They ended up 30? from the Nuc they were placed in.
Jim

  They have an incredible sense of smell I understand that.  But as far as locating home they are much more in tune to location, structure, color, and landmarks.  That's why they know where to pile up when you smoke the entrance.  They don't go flying off trying to find the right scent.  They know this is the spot because of landmarks.  What do they do when they first leave the hive? Orientation flights.  Those involve flying facing the hive and staring at it.  They are not learning the scent. They are learning what it looks like.

You know what?
You're right, absolutely correct positively flawless theory
you got there, especially for those meandering scouts who
do not own a smoker!!
And what are all these bees doing in my truck hammering
the old broodbox!?
They are loving the vermillion hexagon above the entrance?
Alll fitted with new eyeware, hey!!!

In fact you are so Right I have no compunction in conceding
it is the numbnuts who, so skeered off by science they burst
into song the minute such reference (-phenome-) even takes
a small breath in these overcrowded "0h no this is how it is
'cos it works for me" cuckoo nests, beat the stuffing out of
my head!!
How is any reality of Fact going to take hold in change when
these parasitic birds feather another's nest to replicate
themselves?
That's "metaphorical analogy" at play -  for those who claim
they do not understand my posts.

Enough for me, I take flight.... it pains me to have my eggs
thrown about by parasites.
Van, ol' buddy.. yer wasting good 'lectricity trying, trust me! :-))))

Cya's...

Bill

[little john]

The first failed attempt this year at doing splits, I suspected other bees were robbing the split out the next day.  I blocked the entrance, and after awhile I came back and opened it.  Immediately about a dozen bees came out and started scenting.  Since they were just split, how do which bees know that's for them?  That is, if they just came from the parent colony, how does the split know it's for them and not the parent colony know it's for them?

Do bear in mind that a type of robbing - best described as 'latent robbing' - frequently takes place within an apiary unknown and unseen (hence the term 'latent'), especially one in which full-sized hives and their splits co-exist.

So - you make a split, or perhaps 'mix bees up' during queen-rearing operations:  any scout-robbers which happen to smell the same as some other bees within a box (say, a newly-formed nuc) - will then be able to walk straight in through the front door of that nuc box without being challenged.  What happens next then largely depends upon local conditions viz-a-viz the 'goods on offer'.

If there's a good flow on, then the scout-robber's dance will largely be drowned-out by numerous other dances related to that abundant flow, and so only a handful of robbers which have shown interest in that particular waggle dance will begin visiting the target hive and pilfering it's stores. This can go on unnoticed for a very long time, and appears to the casual observer to be just normal foraging activity.  You will not observe classic signs of 'sniffing around the cracks' and similar signs of robber-scouts showing an interest, as there's no need for this (there never was !) - the bees involved will simply be treating the target hive as just another convenient source food to be visited.

But - in a dearth of nectar - or if the target hive is particularly weak, or has prime stocks of honey 'on offer', then the waggle dance may either be 'the only dance in town' or be particular enthusiastic, following which the situation can quickly develop into a full-blown robbing frenzy, the sight of which most beekeepers are only too familiar with.

The 'fix' for this is to fit classic mesh anti-robbing screens to ALL hives, especially nucleus boxes.
LJ

[Duane]

So - you make a split, or perhaps 'mix bees up' during queen-rearing operations:  any scout-robbers which happen to smell the same as some other bees within a box (say, a newly-formed nuc) - will then be able to walk straight in through the front door of that nuc box without being challenged.  What happens next then largely depends upon local conditions viz-a-viz the 'goods on offer'.

That kind of answered my question, that sometimes they can't tell the difference.  But why the scenting on the outside when I unblocked the entrance?  Indicating a food source?

Regarding robbing, I had thought if you narrow the entrance to one bee width, they can defend it.  But last year showed  a lot of bees can force their way through a little hole!

So bees can know their place by location rather than smell.  So why all the bees on the outside scenting?  Even when disturbing the hive and not splitting, what's the purpose if they know where they belong?  Is it get close and then follow their noses the rest of the way?  I was trying to figure out somehow to use that to my advantage in moving bees over to another box if they need more, but maybe that's not going to work.  Such as, disturb the weaker split, block the entrance of the strong split and they all go to the weaker, do orientation, and now it's stronger?

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Lil John, good evening Buddy,
{Do bear in mind that a type of robbing - best described as 'latent robbing' - frequently takes place within an apiary unknown and unseen (hence the term 'latent'), especially one in which full-sized hives and their splits co-exist.}

Yes Sir, I read what you describe.  The author called it PASSIVE ROBBING.  There are probably more names for the same thing, latent, passive..  Anyway the robbing bees just walk right in, no problem.

Duane, bees have a thousand smell receptors to our (people)one.  So smell of a hive or a particular bee can be as distinct to a bee as the colors black and white are to folks.  Humans have a very poor sense of smell compared to most creatures.  Some creatures such as a mosquito can detect an individual molecule of pheromones.  Consider a bee can do the same.

In summation the smell of a bee is as distinct as facial reconization is to a person.

Why fanning scents you ask,,,,, I can?t really answer that question, there are many reasons why a bee would fan scent.

Hey Bill, good to see your back, cheers, Buddy.
Blessings

[BeeMaster2]

Duane,
When you disturb the hive, a lot of nurse bees end up airborne. These bees have not oriented to the hive. The bees scent to let the nurse bees know where to return to to get home.
Jim