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Author Topic: Winter Brood Triggers  (Read 4627 times)

Offline Bush_84

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Winter Brood Triggers
« on: February 06, 2018, 11:29:42 am »
A separate topic got me thinking on this subject. I keep bees in a pitch black shed. Last year I had a large hive come out of my shed in March with drones and brood. No light. No incoming pollen or nectar. I guess my understanding was that this was dictated by multiple factors. Race, sunlight, pollen/nectar. The only two factors that I figure would be influencing a hive in this situation would be heat, race, strength of the hive, and genetics of the queen. These were Italians. It was a huge hive. When I took it out in March it filled two 8 frame deeps and partially filled a third.

So anybody have any thoughts on this?
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2018, 01:34:12 pm »
You mean why was the hive so big?  The hive obviously had the necessary stores to raise a lot of brood.  Italians build up fast consuming their stores in a gamble that there will be a flow before they run out.  They typically starve when they are wrong.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2018, 06:32:20 pm »
There were a lot of theories back in the late 1800s in the bee journals of the day when discussing "cellaring".  One was that you remove all pollen (bee bread) from the colony before cellaring them.  The other issue is light.  Having set up many darkrooms in my life, I have to say "complete darkness" is very difficult to come by.  Also, if you check on them you need "true" red light in order to not set off a reaction in the bees.  I used to be able to buy those at the local photo shop, but I'm not sure where to find them now.  I haven't looked lately.
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Offline Bush_84

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2018, 07:38:28 pm »
You mean why was the hive so big?  The hive obviously had the necessary stores to raise a lot of brood.  Italians build up fast consuming their stores in a gamble that there will be a flow before they run out.  They typically starve when they are wrong.

But what triggered them to raise brood?  Is it just because they are Italians and they will likely raise brood for most of the winter?
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2018, 10:03:36 pm »
I used to be able to buy those at the local photo shop, but I'm not sure where to find them now.
Might be in the same place but more expensive LED's.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2018, 10:13:34 pm »
Is it just because they are Italians and they will likely raise brood for most of the winter?

No it is not most of the winter.  For my area it is right about now.
We are in our dreary winter season now where it snows every day with mostly grey skies.  When the sun does come out it melts the snow and ice off the pavement even though it is 3 or 4 degrees below freezing.  Car interior heats up from the green house effect.  Come nightfall the temperatures drop like a rock.  Now for my hives in the back yard I am sure they can tell where they are in the calendar season.  For your hives in a shed with outside heat sources I have no idea what their cues are to raise brood.  Maybe it is a magnetic field like with birds.
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2018, 11:18:52 pm »
Bush-84 your post is interesting.  I guessed (my idea) the increasing light triggered brood but your observation cast shadow on that idea. 

There are many unknowns of honey bees:  who makes the decision to swarm, the queen, a bee council, elders?
Who decides to go and who decides to stay when swarming, is it an individual decision?
Do they realize they die if the sting a person?
Is a bee a single individual or part of a super organism?

We know bees can learn from bonafide lab test using color to direct to food.

I have seen many a bee, weakened, leave the hive on what appears to me to be a susicide walk.  Do these bees realize they are no longer fit to serve the hive and leave without knowing the consequences?

We know the nerves in a bees brain have 10 times more connections as our own neurons.  We know they detect and navigate by magnetic fields, a built in GPS,,,,,, each bee with 5 eyes that include ultraviolet, night vision.  We know pheromones play a large part in the life of honey bees but only understand a few.

And the biggest puzzling question of all: are bee conscious: or are they aware of self or just insects reacting to impulse and pheromones.

Makes one think, there are a lot of simple questions that we just do not know the answer.
Blessings

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2018, 01:49:48 am »
Man, I have a hard enough time trying to figure out what my wife means when she says something to me.  Trying to understand what bees "think" is way beyond my pay grade.  I don't even try.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Acebird

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2018, 09:34:17 am »
There are many unknowns of honey bees:  who makes the decision to swarm, the queen, a bee council, elders?
Who decides to go and who decides to stay when swarming, is it an individual decision?
Do they realize they die if the sting a person?
Is a bee a single individual or part of a super organism?

The queen makes no decisions except to fight for her life when fighting with another queen.
Who decides to stay or go is an unknown to me.
Hmm does a drone know he is going to die after a one night fling?
The colony is a super organism and every single bee is part of it.  The whole question is can a bee think or is it just programmed?
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2018, 09:37:16 am »
Man, I have a hard enough time trying to figure out what my wife means when she says something to me.

Oh I have figured this out.  It means the opposite of what I think and if I should agree with her I am still wrong.  The schooling didn't come easy.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2018, 10:15:24 am »
There are many unknowns of honey bees:  who makes the decision to swarm, the queen, a bee council, elders?
Who decides to go and who decides to stay when swarming, is it an individual decision?
Do they realize they die if the sting a person?
Is a bee a single individual or part of a super organism?

The queen makes no decisions except to fight for her life when fighting with another queen.
Who decides to stay or go is an unknown to me.
Hmm does a drone know he is going to die after a one night fling?
The colony is a super organism and every single bee is part of it.  The whole question is can a bee think or is it just programmed?
The scout bees, which are the older bees make the decisions to swarm and abscond and they make the decisions as to where they are going.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2018, 10:25:11 am »

"Is a bee a single individual or part of a super organism?"

There are many like scenarios to quote from the organism's behavior.
Let's  take a look at just one, as food for thought.
That bee writhing on the ground with it's father is doing so as an
individual, the beginnings of which founded in duty, that duty evolving
from the program the whole of tbe organism is employed at in survival
of the colony.
Too easy ;-)

Bill

Offline eltalia

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2018, 10:43:17 am »

The scout bees, which are the older bees make the decisions to swarm and abscond and they
make the decisions as to where they are going.
Jim

Some have studied swarm behavior in detail and published papers
on same. Taking some value from that - particularly the selection by
grid location - and anecdotal from proven efficient swarm catchers,
together with my own experience I would offer the scout bees are
minions. Just as scouts in foraging are the lead, not the prime couriers.
There is also evidence in swarm preparation within the colony that
points away from scouts being older bees making decisions.

Bill

Offline jalentour

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2018, 10:59:57 am »
bush 84,
I believe I read you heat your shed to 40 or so.  The heat and food supply may be a factor in winter brood growth in your hives.
Having said that, I have noticed in my hives profound differences in population when they "emerge" in the spring.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2018, 02:45:50 pm »
Man, I have a hard enough time trying to figure out what my wife means when she says something to me.

Oh I have figured this out.  It means the opposite of what I think and if I should agree with her I am still wrong.  The schooling didn't come easy.

Ace you are halarious. :) I enjoy the humor.
Blessings

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2018, 05:49:15 pm »
Eltalia,  I would recommend you read Thomas Seeley's book, Honeybee Democracy for a really good read and authoritative research on the matter of swarms and selection of new hive location.  He says the bees arrive at the decision by consensus.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline eltalia

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2018, 06:52:37 pm »
Eltalia,  I would recommend you read Thomas Seeley's book, Honeybee Democracy for a really good
read and authoritative research on the matter of swarms and selection of new hive location. 
He says the bees arrive at the decision by consensus.

Yep DB it is Tom's work on sorting grid I referred to. The concenus thing is
just how the organism operates in my view, allbeit often in groups and not
a sole governing "voice". One group wants to supercede, another group
does not, QC(s) gets torn down. One group says we can beat the crap outa
these little black devils intruding, another group decides to run for the hills!

Meanwhile we watch on and wonder, stretching for answers to how to force
them to do universally what we want them to do. Some days it all goes to
pot in bees showing us the finger :-D

Bill

Offline Bush_84

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2018, 08:26:34 pm »
bush 84,
I believe I read you heat your shed to 40 or so.  The heat and food supply may be a factor in winter brood growth in your hives.
Having said that, I have noticed in my hives profound differences in population when they "emerge" in the spring.

Ya this singular example has not been universal. I just noticed this one hive build up with what I perceived to be a lack of triggering factors. So I was curious. I still suspect that this is more likely related to the strength of the hive and their race.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline beepro

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2018, 10:01:55 pm »
I say the lengthening of the daylight hours of the early Spring time or the shortening of the daylight hours during
the winter time that will trigger them into either expansion mode or contraction mode.  Lights also triggered many
plants to grow and bloom too.   Without the artificial light my red passion fruit plant will never send off new shoots.

Offline Bush_84

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2018, 12:33:40 pm »
I say the lengthening of the daylight hours of the early Spring time or the shortening of the daylight hours during
the winter time that will trigger them into either expansion mode or contraction mode.  Lights also triggered many
plants to grow and bloom too.   Without the artificial light my red passion fruit plant will never send off new shoots.

My intrigue however is due to the fact that these hives were kept in the dark. No light trigger.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline little john

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 01:51:10 pm »
Light is well-known zeitgeber which stimulates and entrains circadian rhythms (our daily biological clock) - which is why people tend to awake at the same time each morning.  If you turn the lights off later, you'll tend to wake-up later.
 
But think  - how does the earthworm or mole deep underground know it's spring ?  It won't be the soil warming-up, at least not to begin with.  There are other rhythms in Nature, apart from circadian rhythms - monthly (thanks to the moon), annual, and one or two others.  A fascinating area of biology.

Checkout: http://millar.bio.ed.ac.uk/andrewM/Jo%20Selwood%20site/other_rhythms.htm  for a brief description.

LJ
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 05:14:35 pm »
Yes Sir, Lil John, you nailed it as usual:  thanks for the link, informative. In this thread Bush84 has provided info that indicates his bees were not triggered by light to begin laying.  So the question remains, if not light, then what triggered the queen to lay.

There is a finch imported from Australia and brought to USA.  This finch, lays in the US winter.  I don?t remember the exact species of finch, it is a beautiful, yellow, blue, red.  Obviously the trigger for this bird to lay is biological, I am GUESSING age, the finch lays at one year of age regardless of light.  Clearly light is a trigger for most species.

So, speaking for myself only, thanks to Bush84 :). I am at a complete loss as to what triggers a queen to lay.  I used to believe light was the trigger exactly as Beepro pointed out.  Now ?I dunno.?  I am thankful for post by Bush84 and others in which I learn how little I know about bees.

I just inspected 6 hives, sunny clear 82F 02/15/18, some hives had larva, others did not.  These bees fascinate me, there is so much that is just not known.
Blessings

Offline Bush_84

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 06:15:11 pm »
Again this is the exception for what I have seen in the past. My other hives has had a small patch coming out of the shed. This hive was just huge and had friggin drones when I took them out of my shed. I still have this same queen. I will see in a month or so how she is laying. I am definitely going to breed from her this summer. I will probably move her over to a nuc this year. She is nearing three years old and I worry that she will get swarmy. I can also probably graft from her easier this way.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline little john

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2018, 06:53:01 pm »
These bees fascinate me, there is so much that is just not known.

Hi Van - yes, I'm intrigued by what Dan's doing as well.  Not the sort of thing I'll ever be doing myself (afaik), so I'm just a very interested spectator on this one.

You know, there are SO many questions about bee behaviour which don't fit into either the stimulus-response or 'instinct' category (with 'instinct' being but another way of 'fessing-up that nobody really knows) ... such as:

Why do bees draw comb - period ?  Do they know in advance that a worker or a drone will be raised in those cells ?  If so - how do they know that ?  Even bees who have never seen a comb in their lives before (except those from which they emerged) will draw combs precisely for this purpose.  [thinks - does a bird know in advance that it will be laying eggs, before it starts to build a nest ?]

And - how do the bees 'know' to draw that comb with the cells sloping slightly downwards ?  Do they know it will be used for storing a liquid - if so, how do they know that ?  And so on ...

Then there's the whole collecting and storing of pollen, and hundreds more other examples of uber-precise purposeful behaviour.  D@mned hard to explain any of those by simple stimulus-response mechanisms.

I once saw a video where some professor or other was boasting to some students that 'we know' how bees navigate, whilst showing them the waggle dance.  Yes - that's a fascinating 'taster' of what's undoubtedly involved, but to claim 'we know' ?
That was clearly a bloke who knows sod-all about what's involved in navigation.  How do the bees measure and compensate for cross-wind drift, for example ?  It's not enough just to have some kind of biological compass and the coordinates for a destination.  Yep - so many questions ...
LJ
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2018, 12:03:31 am »
Then there is overnight temperatures and relative humidity.

For the controlled environment - as a shed hibernation would
provide - both these factors are likely a drawback for bees
in what to do when. The real (flying) conditions are masked.
One solid argument to have each colony manage on it's
own where masses of colonys are not required to be deployed
to catch an event, as in farmed out.

Bill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2018, 09:21:34 am »
Why do bees draw comb - period ?  Do they know in advance that a worker or a drone will be raised in those cells ?  If so - how do they know that ?

If the super organism wants drones they will clean out cells that drones can be raised in or make the cells if they don't exist.  Same thing for raising queens.
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Offline little john

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2018, 09:40:12 am »
Why do bees draw comb - period ?  Do they know in advance that a worker or a drone will be raised in those cells ?  If so - how do they know that ?

If the super organism wants drones they will clean out cells that drones can be raised in or make the cells if they don't exist.  Same thing for raising queens.

Ok - if you think it's that simple ...
worker bees use their bodies as templates when drawing worker cells.  How do they know what size to make the drone cells ?  They don't carry blueprints or any form of measuring device except their own bodies.

Of course one can simply say "it's just what bees do" - but how exactly do they go about doing this ?  The truth is that we know next to nothing about how bees operate.  Certainly, that for me is part of the attraction of keeping these amazing little bugs.
LJ
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2018, 02:59:44 pm »
The hexagonal cell shape is a wonder of the Honey bee.  Mathematical, the hexagonal shape of cells presents the strongest with the most efficient use of space:

Squares cell would crush
Round cells waste to much space
Triangles cells sacrifice strength and create dead space.

Take any possible shape you can think of in rows , and the hexagonal is the strongest yet most efficient for conservation of space.  I believe only the honey bee has done the math correctly.  Wasp build round paper (very weak) or mud cells.  How did the honey bee figure the perfect strength to shape ratio?  Lil math wizards they are.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Winter Brood Triggers
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2018, 06:06:02 pm »
Take any possible shape you can think of in rows , and the hexagonal is the strongest yet most efficient for conservation of space.

Round would be stronger but is consumes way more wax because there wouldn't be common sides.  The thing is the hexigon is strong enough.
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