Cold Weather BeeKeeping

[ApisM]

I live in the Canadian North.  It gets to -30 F in the winter.  Usually I have a frost window on my top entrance.  I clean out the entrance so the bees can expel the moisture from the hive. This demarcates that the bees are generating heat.

Unfortunately today it was cold and no frost window covering the top entrance of one of my hives.  I hit the hive and couldn't hear the bees buzzing.  The adjacent colony had a frost window and I can hear the bees when I put my ear to them.

Both hives are covered in snow, except for the top front entrance. 

Questions: 

Should I be concerned about the hives covered in snow?  Does this keep too much heat in the hive creating too much moisture in the hive during the very cold winters?

If I can't hear the bees, can they still be alive?

for the last 3 weeks the bees have been expelling 20-30 bees daily but dying in the snow, since they froze when they hit the -30 F air.  This is usual and I wasn't concerned because it suggested the bees were alive and healthy.  however, the healthy hive had expelled bees today and the suspected winter kill hive had none.  Should this concern me?

Thanks,

Apis M

[Bush_84]

I wouldn?t worry about a hive buried in snow. I would be mourn a hive without frost at upper entrance and no expelling. They are likely dead imo. However no point in worrying about it. You can mourn over it if you?d like but worrying about a dead hive doesn?t do you much good. There?s always a chance that they may have a small cluster but a small cluster this time of year won?t make it out of March.

[Acebird]

This demarcates that the bees are generating heat.

I would say that it demonstrates that they are breathing and it is cold.
I would recommend to never hit the hive in the winter.  It only causes stress.  I would also stop cleaning out the entrance.  Bees regulate their hive and they know what they want.  Your intervention only messes them up.  I am just a hobbyist and don't have any experience with your area so it is free advice.

[ApisM]

Thanks Bush 84, I can see you have some good experience living where you live.  I live North of you and it is a bit colder but very similar at certain periods of the year.  I always morn, due to money it costs me.  Especially since I am rebuilding after bears decimated my colonies.  I am somewhat defeated these days.  I haven't even had to worry about mites, since they are not in my region.

Acebird, I think the reason my bees died is because the frost window blocked moisture from escaping.  This create a poor environment to live in during prolonged periods of -30 to -40 C.  Right now it is -34C.  I also hit the colony hive in a last attempt effort to confirm my loss.  I have found tampering with the window, helps in survival up here.

[Acebird]

Acebird, I think the reason my bees died is because the frost window blocked moisture from escaping.

Can I assume there is a bottom entrance?  My suggestion is to make the bottom entrance a small vent and open up the top entrance large.  The amount of air passing through the hive is dependent on the smallest hole between the top and bottom  even to the point where the bottom vent doesn't exist during the winter months.  Heat tape might solve the icing up even if it is solar powered.

[Bush_84]

Ya I?m right there with you. I went into winter with 11 and have 3 left. I keep bees in a shed. I tried a new heater this winter and it didn?t work out plus a month of below zero f weather was a killer. I?ll be starting a topic in the coming months about my new bee shed build if you are interested.

[ApisM]

Thanks Guys.  Ace bird, the bottom entrance get's snowed in and iced up.  It doesn't exist in the winter.  Maybe this is the problem.  Unfortunately, it is hard to rectify since sometimes my hives get completely cover in several feet of snow.  I purposely didn't add any heat items to the hive, I hope to breed survival stock so I can have confidence of my hives in the winter.  I can't afford to baby hives if I want to expand with confidence. 

Ace bird, I am sorry for you losses.  That is a big hit.  Was it moisture related or disease issues (mites, nosema, etc).  What are you assumptions?

I thought about building a shed, keep me posted.

[Bush_84]

Three were late splits. I was overconfident in my shed but that confidence was misplaced with the new heater and cold temps. Those were easy to accept. The other five were more heartbreaking. Moisture isn?t an issue. Population wasn?t an issue. The other five hives had several inches of dead bees on the bottom board.  They were all well populated. They all had left over honey. Also frustrating. I still however think they starved. For some reason I still found some scattered capped brood in these hives. My thought was that they wouldn?t leave brood and couldn?t break cluster for the month long freeze. So they starved with honey a comb over and a box above. I typically see this sort of thing in March.  Not sure if my shed had something to do with the brood or the fact that they were Italians. 

Either way going forward I am going to do a couple of things. No splits after mid/late July and I will be super anal about my shed temp. I will aim for 40 f +-5. My new shed is actually just a corner of an existing shed. It?s 22x12 feet and already walled off on three sides. Going to build the 22ft wall first and install the door (we are getting new exterior doors for the house this summer so will repurpose the old ones. I will also have to shore up the insulation. There is some in the attic but I suspect none in the walls. I plan on attempting to blow it in the attic and walls. Will install a few outlets and lights. Also will be using a shop heater attached to a thermostat. I have used dryer vents with an in-line fan but may try using a bathroom fan for this space. Light traps are a must. Will have to find a way to setup a timer on the fan. Right now the fan I use is a plug in unit thus can be plugged into a timer. So it will be a huge job. If I don?t finish before next fall life will go on. My current setup isn?t completely shot yet. It?s an old garden shed, but it needs a new roof and paint. I also can?t seem to keep mice out, which is an issue for obvious reasons. Not worth repairing, but would be serviceable for one more winter. 

[little john]

I'll be starting a topic in the coming months about my new bee shed build if you are interested.

Add +1 to that particular audience ...

Light traps are a must.

??  Can't immediately get my head around how light becomes an issue here - could you expand a little on what role is played by 'light traps' in your scheme ?  Ta muchly.
LJ

[Acebird]

Unfortunately, it is hard to rectify since sometimes my hives get completely cover in several feet of snow.  Usually that is a blessing.  The snow melts about an inch away from the hive and prevents the entrance and vent from icing up.  If you are going to bring the hives inside I would talk to Ian Steppler up your way to know what you are up against.  He has You tube vids up on the net.  He appears to be very successful.  He talks about the critical timing of getting them outside when it warms up.

If I were going to attempt your area as a hobbyist I would plan on having at least 4 hives right tight together.  Use 3/4 stock boxes (8 frame) separate innercovers and a self made outer cover covering all four hives.  Cover the exposed outside with 2" foam and the cover with 3-4" foam.  If I ended up with odball numbers like 5 and 6 hives in the fall they would go on top of the stack of four with not much faith in them making it.  I would select the healthiest hives for the group of four.

[Acebird]

Can't immediately get my head around how light becomes an issue here

The building has to have ventilation both for oxygen and to eliminate water vapor.  When the interior starts getting above 40 the bees come out and go for the light leave the building and die.  It is too cold outside.  Getting bees to survive inside is not as easy as it might sound.

[Bush_84]

Pretty much what acebird said. If a bee sees light it will fly towards it and never return. The shed needs to be 100% black. My light traps are essentially ducts with two 90 degree turns. I won?t run into to many issues as the space in my new shed is already fairly dark. The rest of the shed is also not insulated and thus far from air tight. I was thinking of sucking air in from the main shed and exhausted into the attic. If I use a bathroom fan I don?t think light will be an issue either. Exhaust ducts will still need two 90 degree turns.

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Edit- I forgot to touch on one other thing. I hate to call it a positive as it really isn?t, but my bees don?t heat up my shed. I simply don?t have enough. So I don?t run into cooling issues in the spring like many of the commercial indoor beekeepers.  If it?s warm enough outside that my shed is overheating it?s time for them to come out. I believe that is the biggest problem facing indoor wintering. Once you get past that it?s just a matter of having a shed to use, proper insulation, heating, and ventilation.

[little john]

Wow - I had no idea you guys weren't allowing the bees to exit the shed, and also vent moist air out into the atmosphere.  I had assumed - wrongly it would appear - that you would run short pipes from the hive (bottom) entrances through the shed wall to the outside.  That's how I would configure a shed setup.  Didn't realise there was another approach.
LJ

[Bush_84]

Ian from beesource has a good YouTube channel that shows his fancy shed. I believe it?s called a Canadian Beekeepers Blog. IMO if I give them access outside it introduces cold into my hives. It also adds an extra level of complexity. They don?t really do anything except for poop between November until March anyways. Ian keeps his bees in his shed from November until March. I put mine in sometime in December depending on the weather. I used to let them out once or twice in the winter to cleanse but always wondered how many never made it back due to being in the shed. After seeing Ian keep his hives in his shed from November until March I decided to try that this year as well.

Ian vents his shed to serve a couple of purposed. Firstly to keep air fresh. Expel carbon dioxide and bring in oxygen. You also get rid of moisture while doing so but I have read a thread indicating that he tries to keep his relative humidity at a certain level. I think that?s because he may have some canola honey in his hives. I don?t have that issue and have never thought twice about how dry it gets here. Ian also uses his vents to keep his shed cool. He packs his shed full of bees. It?s impressive. They do 100% of the heating. He has one vent that runs continuously and one that turns on when it gets above 4c. As I don?t have enough bees to heat my space (hopefully one day) I use mine primarily to keep the air fresh. I will also use a ceiling fan to circulate the air.

[eltalia]

@Bush_84 (quoted)

"Ian vents his shed to serve a couple of purposed[sic]. Firstly to keep air fresh.
Expel carbon dioxide and bring in oxygen. You also get rid of moisture while doing
so but I have read a thread indicating that he tries to expel carbon dioxide and
bring in oxygen. You also get rid of moisture while doing so but I have read a
thread indicating that he tries to keep his relative humidity at a certain level. "

Maintaining hive conditions above dewpoint is what bees do - where the
stores consumed go... in converting that energy into a survivable environment.
Relative humidty (rH)  within the hive body is between 60% and 40%
depending on colony purpose. Should dewpoint be reached within those
parameters water is then present as condensation. Excess condensation
makes for wet bees, wet bees die.

"I think that's because he may have some canola honey in his hives. I don't have
that issue and have never thought twice about how dry it gets here.
Ian also uses his vents to keep his shed cool."

Having never thought twice on ambient levels of rH you have then wholly
missed the point of Ian's example. Sure, he has a shed however the
conditions only mimic what should be provided for every wintered colony,
within the hive body - or indeed here in the tropics where 90%rH is around
for mostly 60days each year, and > 40%rH for >180days.
70% losses in a single winter could be avoided in studying the model and
applying the principles locally.
Ian approaches his operations using science - and a lot of hard work.
Funnily enough Ian winters in single FD broodchambers AND winters nucleus
colonys, this with just ~20years experience under his belt, a decade or more
of that earning a living at it.
The question then is... what does Ian know that many I read do not, further,
even argue their own anecdotes against methods Ian and many others use?
Part of an answer lies in Ian understanding the organism, that is.. not employing
a management style which follows "beekeeping by numbers".
I am sure were he asked Ian would tell... he reads as that stereotype,
frank-honest-helpful.

Bill

[Bush_84]

I?m not going to lie I have a hard time deciphering what you are trying to get across. Canola honey turns into a rock and requires water to use. I?ve never dealt with canola honey so I can?t say much more than what I?ve read. My winters here are extremely dry and it?s generally thought to use an upper entrance to keep your hives dry as well. I?ve always questioned that practice, but I?ve always maintained an upper entrance. If nothing else my bees always use that entrance in winter spring. Either way I don?t believe my bees to require extra water in the winter and would rather keep an upper entrance. Bees give off enough water through respiration and what is contained within honey.

I believe that the point of indoor wintering isn?t meant to mimic the environment inside a hive but rather the optimum outside environment. If the argument is that a shed mimics the environment inside the hive then our sheds should be much colder. Instead we keep the sheds at 40 f as that has been determined to be the best temperature to winter bees. There is unfortunately not a textbook with indoor wintering.

I can only know so much before I start doing what I believe is best for my bees. Ive experienced bees starve with honey inches above them, but they can?t get to it due to cold. I?ve witnessed hives freeze in sub zero temps. So I?ve determined that temperature to be the biggest benefit to a shed. I view the rest as necessary as I?m keeping bees indoors. 

So no I haven?t given much thought to the rh of my shed. If somebody can give me a reason to believe it?ll improve my wintering then you?ll see me doing whatever I can to increase humidity. Until then if hives that are wintered outside can get through a dry winter with an upper entrance then I?m not sure I?ll stress about it. I am again always looking to improve my situation.

[eltalia]

@Bush_84 wrote in part;
"I'm not going to lie I have a hard time deciphering what you are trying to get across. "

errr...fair enough, no point to expanding then, hey?
Take this with you as a simple fact... one has to know first
to recognise another who does know how it works.
Ian knows, I saw this in his earliest postings in a 2017 read
of beesourcedotcom. So... on the topic of environmental controls
- the science -  within a hive body...?...I suggest you consult with
him. From your writings you might not "get it" at first pass but
clearly you can dechiper his 'speak'.

"Canola honey turns into a rock and requires water to use."

Beyond the extents of energy spent in consuming stores the solid
state of stores is irrelevent.
Ian's "fancy shed" is designed to optimise those levels of energy,
yet no "fancy shed" is required for the backyard beekeeper to achieve
like levels/extents of energy in each individual colony within a
small(er) apiary.
When it is boiled down Ian's setup is a stable environment minus bees
to control the conditions. Each colony has that job on it's own, which
is as it should be.
Nice to have but not necessary in an economy of scale, despite my own
applause for your efforts to build a wintering shed.

Bill

[little john]

IMO if I give them access outside it introduces cold into my hives. It also adds an extra level of complexity.

I suppose my thinking had been influenced by reading Preparation for Outdoor Wintering, Phillips, 1918 - in which he describes the packing-case method used at the Bureau of Entomology, which is reported to work well within Zone G.  Must stress that the climatic conditions experienced during winter by you guys 'up North' are well out of my own personal experience ...
LJ

[BeeMaster2]

ApisM,
I recommend you add a cover over your top entrance to block the light from directly hitting the entrance. If you watch the old skep videos on utube, you will see that they add shields during the winter to help keep the bees from flying when the temperature is too cold for the bees to bee able too fly.
Jim

[Acebird]

When it is boiled down Ian's setup is a stable environment minus bees
to control the conditions. Each colony has that job on it's own, which
is as it should be.

Ian's setup is totally dependent on a large number of hives almost completely filling the size of the room.  If he tried to put 10-20 hives in the room the room would be out of control and the bees would die.

You can't compare a hobbyist set up to a full blown commercial set up.