What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?

[little john]

I guess everyone has their own ideas about this ?  My view is that successful beekeeping is 'good' beekeeping - that is, if your colonies come through winter without significant losses each year, and if your techniques for multiplying colony numbers and raising queens are likewise successful - then surely you must be doing something 'right' ...
And, even if you should find that something controversial (such as observing ley-lines or similar) actually works ok in practice - then why not stick with that practice ?

But if your colonies keep dying on you - then that suggests that some other approach really needs to be tried - for the proof of the pudding, it is said, lies in the eating of it. 

So why this post, and why now ?

Well, I've just read a post about the so-called 'Small Hive Project' ( https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=50626.0 ) in which the author is claiming that spacing hives apart in excess of 1 metre is 'essential' when running colonies treatment-free.  And yet he describes losing ALL of his colonies (pretty obviously from a severe Varroa infestation) when they were already spaced 2-3 metres apart.  So that tells me that spacing probably isn't much of an issue in this case, and that the ultimate cause lies elsewhere.  If frequent swarming AND spacing the hives apart isn't working in the fight against Varroa - isn't it time to at least consider some other approach, such as treating with a miticide ?

As I see it, if a guy wants to run treatment-free, and loses ALL of his colonies in the process - that's his business, and not anyone else's.  But - if he's encouraging others from the facilities of a beekeeping forum to follow his particular methodology, and clutching at unproven straws in an attempt to maintain an apparently unwise ideology - than maybe this needs to be discussed within that forum ?


BTW - today marks the Winter Solstice (my equivalent of Xmas Day), and so I'll take this opportunity to wish everyone a very happy festive season, even though this is an earlier date than the majority of folk celebrate.
LJ

[Acebird]

If frequent swarming AND spacing the hives apart isn't working in the fight against Varroa - isn't it time to at least consider some other approach, such as treating with a miticide ?

What if there are beekeepers doing just that right next to him?  Their treatments could be culling out the weak mites while the stronger ones live that his untreated bees can't handle.  I do have to agree with you on whether the hives are 3 inches apart or 3 meters apart what is the difference.  If I was losing all my hives every year I would rethink where I am getting my bees before I would rethink treating them.  I didn't read the other thread but another thing comes to mind when someone consistently loses all their hives.  Maybe they are treating their bees but not in the right way.  They could be killing them with kindness.

[Troutdog]

I guess everyone has their own ideas about this ?  My view is that successful beekeeping is 'good' beekeeping - that is, if your colonies come through winter without significant losses each year, and if your techniques for multiplying colony numbers and raising queens are likewise successful - then surely you must be doing something 'right' ...
And, even if you should find that something controversial (such as observing ley-lines or similar) actually works ok in practice - then why not stick with that practice ?

But if your colonies keep dying on you - then that suggests that some other approach really needs to be tried - for the proof of the pudding, it is said, lies in the eating of it. 

So why this post, and why now ?

Well, I've just read a post about the so-called 'Small Hive Project' ( https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=50626.0 ) in which the author is claiming that spacing hives apart in excess of 1 metre is 'essential' when running colonies treatment-free.  And yet he describes losing ALL of his colonies (pretty obviously from a severe Varroa infestation) when they were already spaced 2-3 metres apart.  So that tells me that spacing probably isn't much of an issue in this case, and that the ultimate cause lies elsewhere.  If frequent swarming AND spacing the hives apart isn't working in the fight against Varroa - isn't it time to at least consider some other approach, such as treating with a miticide ?

As I see it, if a guy wants to run treatment-free, and loses ALL of his colonies in the process - that's his business, and not anyone else's.  But - if he's encouraging others from the facilities of a beekeeping forum to follow his particular methodology, and clutching at unproven straws in an attempt to maintain an apparently unwise ideology - than maybe this needs to be discussed within that forum ?


BTW - today marks the Winter Solstice (my equivalent of Xmas Day), and so I'll take this opportunity to wish everyone a very happy festive season, even though this is an earlier date than the majority of folk celebrate.
LJ

HI LJ

beekeeping is a mirror of society in general. At the moment we seem to have less intelligence than our fore fathers. This trend will continue. Sit back and enjoy it from the sidelines.
I guess it would be funny if it wasn't so sad and dangerous to the rest.

Good management is like common sense not so common. Sadly, thick headed idealists who don't know jack about bees will profess with great din about how to bee.
I prefer to be with like minded people who don't know anything but have learned a lot.
Cheers


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[Acebird]

At the moment we seem to have less intelligence than our fore fathers.

I am sure our fore fathers could have designed a smart phone but they wanted to do what their fathers did and carry messages on horseback.  And I see you are using one of those devices from the stupid generation.  How ironic.

[Troutdog]

At the moment we seem to have less intelligence than our fore fathers.

I am sure our fore fathers could have designed a smart phone but they wanted to do what their fathers did and carry messages on horseback.  And I see you are using one of those devices from the stupid generation.  How ironic.

I know right, lol that's funny, point taken.
Conversely,
 we keep marginal bees and people alive. Then they breed......

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[little john]

I didn't read the other thread ...

It's not a 'thread' as such - it's a project in which the guy is encouraging other people (beginners - who else would ?) to copy his unproven ideas.  If those ideas worked ok - there'd be no negative criticism from me ... but they clearly don't. 

I guess what I'm asking is: "should people who are experiencing failure, really be encouraging others to copy their methods ?"  That seems barking mad to me.
LJ
 

[gww]

I do find promoting something differrent then doing something and then saying this is what I did and this is what happenned and this is why I think it happenned.  I also have seen people get an ideal in thier head and just start something and then promote it like it was already a done deal.

I agree with anyone who wants to try something and is willing to take the good or bad of that as being thier buisness.  I also say that apparrently there is no right way to keep bees cause many keep them successful in many differrent ways.  I am not sure that even those poeple having success where others don't always know for sure why stuff is working but they do know what they are doing.  I believe there are people successfully raising treatment free bees and also successful treaters.  I don't believe everything works for every one in the same way due to things that may be going on that they don't know about or things one is doing differrent that he doesn't even reconize is part of the reason for success.

In the end, you have to pick your own path and adjust till you get it to where you are getting enough to consider it an success for yourself.

Even good bee keepers can have bad things happen but the guy that has stuck with it for some time and is getting enough to keep sticking with it is one that I don't automatically discount his advice.  My view is that caution should be had with new guys picking and choosing what is out there that people are doing while deciding what fits his position and then look at his bees and make adjustment untill they live for him.

I do understand and agree that the expirement being presented as fact when it should be presented as an on going expirment would be most helpful over all.
Cheers
gww

[Kathyp]

it's the same with all things we do.  Everyone has their best way. 

Every area is different.  Every beekeeper is different.  Being willing to try different things rather than getting stuck on a "method" is the key I think, and that means learning, learning, learning......and some experimentation. 

[Michael Bush]

My hives have all been touching now for almost two decades and they have done better than when I had them further apart.  I think because of huddling them for warmth in winter, but I have no real issues with Varroa and I haven't treated for Varroa at all since 2003 and most of them since 2001.

[Acebird]

If those ideas worked ok - there'd be no negative criticism from me ... but they clearly don't. 

I know some people didn't like some of my ideas when I first started.  They felt exactly like you do.  When a newbie tries to sell an idea he/she is up against many years of experience, maybe like yourself.  Maybe that newbie is expressing an idea that another person has or believes in.  If the person keeps quiet they don't even have a chance to lean what they are doing wrong.  And someone who is afraid to voice what they are thinking doesn't lean either.  It should not upset anyone with experience and knowledge to voice why an idea doesn't hold water.  That to me is how a newbie leans.  I doubt any newbies are failing because they followed a half baked idea from another newbie.  Yet there seems to be this fear that that would happen.

[little john]

If those ideas worked ok - there'd be no negative criticism from me ... but they clearly don't. 

I know some people didn't like some of my ideas when I first started. 

Brian - can you honestly say that your ideas have worked thus far ?  Not long ago you mentioned that you're currently entering winter with just one remaining colony, although you once had more, and now intend to split this in order to return to the previous number.  Needless to say I sincerely hope that this colony will survive the winter ok, in order that you can then proceed to make that increase.

I'm reminded of something that somebody (dunno who it was, off-hand) once said:

Head-on attempts to persuade can sometimes trigger a backfire effect, where people not only fail to change their minds when confronted with facts ? they may even hold on to their erroneous views more tenaciously than ever.

And the facts in the example I gave at the beginning of this thread - is that this guy has lost ALL of his colonies, and yet is confident that he knows the exact reason for this failure - and is encouraging others to do as he is doing.

Reminds me of the bloke at the roulette wheel who claims to have invented 'an infallible system' - but when testing it has lost every single penny he owns - and yet he still maintains a blind faith that the system is infallible and so continues to promote his system to others.

LJ

[Acebird]

If those ideas worked ok - there'd be no negative criticism from me ... but they clearly don't. 

I know some people didn't like some of my ideas when I first started. 

Brian - can you honestly say that your ideas have worked thus far ?

Well not all of them.  Can you say today all of your ideas work not just for you but for everyone else?  There are plenty of newbies treating bees that lose all their hives.  The odds are against them when they have so few hives to begin with and they have to start with someone else's bees that most likely were treated.
BTW I presently have two hives going through winter.  I had three last year and lost two in the fall.  I think weather has made the most impact.  When hives had been populous yet the result is much less honey yield I blame mother nature.  We lost all our corn, onions, tomatoes, and beans this year.  Bumper crop of potatoes, go figure.  Does that mean I don't know how to garden?  Maybe.

[beepro]

There are other factors at play other than the hive spacing.
With good forage the bees can withstand the mites better than a poorly feed colony through out the
season.  What work in one area may not be duplicated in another because of the environmental differences.
I rather solve my bee issues than following other's footstep.

[little john]

Hi Brian

The weather often gets blamed - people on this side of the pond do it all the time.  Anyone can keep bees in ideal conditions - it's when the weather presents challenges, that's when beekeepers can use their 'skill'.  I've written 'skill' in quotes because I don't think it's quite the right word to use.  Success under demanding conditions isn't about learned skills exactly, (imo) it's far more about exercising flexibility of approach, about not having a rigid mind-set - and I'm not sure one can learn that from lectures or books.

I'm going to stick my neck out a long way here and say that - with the exception of the Foul Brood diseases - there's no good reason for any managed honeybee colony to die.  Now that's quite a statement ...

I hear some people saying they don't treat - that they won't treat. Many lose colonies.
I hear some people saying that they won't inspect their hives during the season - so those guys never get to have any awareness of colony conditions - and so they lose colonies.
I hear some people saying that they won't supplementary feed under any circumstances - and they certainly lose colonies.
I hear some people blame poor mating conditions for later unforseen colony failure.   But why haven't they kept a few nucs back for emergency re-queening ?

Of course, in practice there will always be a few losses - and there's no reason for anyone to beat themselves up about this happening - but such losses could so easily be reduced to an absolute minimum.  Isn't that what we should all be aiming for ?

In closing I would urge anyone reading this post to check out:
http://theapiarist.org/principles-and-practice/
as fatshark puts the case there for active colony management much better than my own efforts here.

LJ

[little john]

There are other factors at play other than the hive spacing.
With good forage the bees can withstand the mites better than a poorly feed colony through out the
season. What work in one area may not be duplicated in another because of the environmental differences.
I rather solve my bee issues than following other's footstep.

I think the local environment is an important factor - or even several non-determined factors.  I found myself reading an article by Kirk Webster a couple of days ago in which he mentioned Dee Lusby - who runs her operation within the Arizona desert - as being one of the first and most successful 'treatment-free' beekeepers who commenced that approach prior to the advent of Varroa.  Now I've no idea how much relative isolation that desert provides, or to what degree the climatic conditions there affect the bees' behaviour - but I would suggest that for another beekeeper in an area with a significantly different climate, and perhaps surrounded by several other apiaries 'within range'- to adopt a treatment-free protocol solely based on the Lusby's success, would be extremely unwise.

There does appear to be a lemming-like mentality within beekeepers - and to some degree this is understandable - as we're dealing with a creature who's behaviour remains very poorly understood, in part due to it having sense organs far different than our own.  All we can ever do is to observe carefully and try to interpret the bees' behaviour in the best way we can ... but always these observations will be filtered through human perception and our own human understanding of the world around us.  So there will always remain uncertainty and prejudiced personal observations.  Which is why any question related to beekeeping is invariably met with a variety of answers.

But the beginner - understandably - seeks certainty, as they want to do the best by their bees.  Of course.  And so a problem then exists - precisely because there is no such certainty in beekeeping.  Some beginners (thankfully not all) not unreasonably turn to those who appear to speak with authority, and duly copy their methods on the basis of faith rather than their own hard-won experiential experience.

Ok - there is a further complication, and that is 'time-lag'.  If a person was to die 15 minutes after smoking a cigarette, people wouldn't smoke.  They wouldn't dare to smoke tobacco.  But the effects of smoking - the coating of sensitive lung tissue with deposits of tar - may not manifest itself for 10, 20 years ... and sometimes never.  It's a game of roulette.

I assume you'll have heard the anecdote of the guy who jumped out of a skyscraper window and as he passed each floor was heard to be muttering, "Ok so far, Ok so far."  That's what I hear from people who've adopted a non-treatment approach to beekeeping - that it works - or should I say "It's ok so far".

Non-treatment of Varroa is no different from smoking - you may get away with this approach for a year or two - and then it'll bite you on the bum.  You might be able to run treatment-free for decades - perhaps even indefinitely - you might indeed be that lucky.  Or you might not.

So how on earth is a person to then decide about any beekeeping practice, not just about the treatment/treatment-free issue ?  That's why I'm suggesting that proven success is by far the best barometer to use.  Your own success, preferably (of course), or the success of those local to you.  Use what works, and has been shown to work - and treat unsubstantiated or untried methods with suspicion.  I cannot see any sense in following the ideas of someone who has a track record of failure - no matter how good the sales-pitch.

LJ

[Acebird]

Non-treatment of Varroa is no different from smoking

Really LJ?  Chemical treatment for varroa is no different than smoking.  All you have to do is look at many years of trying to control pests with chemicals for many many years.  It is all documented.  Some of it is also scientifically proven just like cigarettes.  You can even make a correlation between drugs and disease in any animal.

Use what works, and has been shown to work

But you can't show me because what you are doing doesn't work.  Everyone that treats loses hives no matter how much knowledge and experience they have.

[AR Beekeeper]

How well Lusby does depends on who you are talking too.  We all have opinions, and it pays to be cautious when taking advice, especially from the net.

What most beekeepers fail to grasp when starting to learn about bees is that standard beekeeping practices are used because they have been found to work.  They are based on the experience of many generations of beekeepers, not the limited experience of a very few.  Those standard practices are the ones beginners should learn, but for some reason beginners always want to follow the "Leader" that promises them success by going down a different path, one that is different than the one used by everyone else.

I am not saying that beekeepers should never try something new, just that they should wait to try after they have become proficient in keeping bees.  Most things "new" have been tried before and were found to fail, just read the old issues of American Bee Journal or Gleanings in Bee Culture and count the products that are no longer advertised, and see the ideas and attitudes had by the beekeepers of those time periods.

Beekeepers are very individualistic, we all like to "tweek" our beekeeping practices to make things easier or more enjoyable for ourselves, but some want to change the world of beekeeping to match their ideas or practices, whether those ideas and practices are sound or not. 

[Acebird]

one that is different than the one used by everyone else.

Aren't they the leaders?  Can you name them instead of wasting all the newbies time trying to figure out who they are?
Seriously, you could go to Beesource and find out who they are and never have a problem raising bees.  Funny thing is that forum has nothing but newbies riddled with problems and experts beating them over the head on how to solve their problems.  Do you think it is working?  Why are they here?

[tjc1]

I think that AR is talking about information on beekeeping wisdom and practice that has been built up over many years, and that is available in the large quantity of 'standard' print sources. Current beekeeping stalwarts (example, Michael Bush and others) often make reference to the earlier beeks and their experiences. I get what AR is saying about this in relation to new beeks and agree that it would arguably be best for new beeks to get grounded in the basics and get to know bees and get familiar with working with them before getting into some of the more esoteric/experimental approaches. For one example, I was tempted as a newbie to start with a top bar hive (or even a Warre hive) - the idea of a 'more natural' approach appealed to me. I am very glad that I started instead with  standard 10 frame Langstroth deeps (including foundation). I have since moved to all mediums and foundationless which I find suits me better - which I discovered by personal experience. Further experience may push me to other approaches, but I feel like after 5 years I have a good foundation in the basics. I am also grateful for all of the help I have had along the way from folks here at Beemaster!

[Acebird]

A very high percentage of newbies take up beekeeping as a hobby.  It is not uncommon to get excited by a new hobby way before you have any idea what is involved.  If they get real excited about it they can fumble around for four or five years learning the ropes.  That usually involves a lot of mistakes.  There are some that jump in blindly but most are doing some reading and research before they grab on to their own approach.  I see nothing wrong with the mistake approach as a hobbyist.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

{How well Lusby does depends on who you are talking too.}

Agreed.  Lusby lost 350 out of 600 hives after varroa invaded her bees.  Yet to my amazement, success was hollered, SURVIVOR bees was proclaimed as the new word with ORGANIC bee keeping as the new profound way of beekeeping.  These survivor bees are hostile, dangerous, the visiting camera man had so many stings on his camera lense, that the venom on then lens had to be cleaned.  The pics of the camera mans gloves were covered with stingers at Lusby Organic bees.  Understand the camera man was a bystander, not in the hives and he was attacked.  Why sting the camera lens you ask, answer these hostile bees are going for the eyes, the bees think the lens are eyes.

I would agree, hostile bees are better at dealing with varroa.  However to raise and even praise, promote extremely hostile bees is not good breaking to me.  To each his/her own, but endangering folks, the public, with such aggressive bees that protection is a must is not organic to me.

Lusby contends drones need to be maintained as an ATTRACTANT to disease.  Implying disease will attack the drones first giving a break to the workers so workers can do whatever to the disease.  This is an illusion.

I have heard of real survivor bees, hives, tended to by responsible beeks that maintain chemical free hives and the bees are not trying to kill the beekeeper.  This is responsible, sensible beekeeping to me, survivor hives without African traits.  Bless the beekeepers whom good judgement rest on their shoulders.  This site has many such men/women.
Blessings

[Acebird]

Why sting the camera lens you ask, answer these hostile bees are going for the eyes, the bees think the lens are eyes.

Or it was the infrared beam used for auto focus.  If you have an auto focus camera you should be careful taking pictures of bees.  Even a gentle breed can head for the camera.  I am not saying Dee doesn't have aggressive bees because she does.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Yes, Ace I realize what you are saying, just a note:  bees cannot see red as they see in the ultraviolet region Of light, for both day and night vision.  The 3 small eyes centered on the head are primary ultraviolet, night vision.  To test this, I shined a red laser at guard bees on the hive entrance, no reaction at all from a super bright blinding red laser.

However, I understand your point, other colors of light could be used for autofocus.
I hear lots of snow in you area, stay warm.  Have a safe New Year.
Blessings

[Michael Bush]

>How well Lusby does depends on who you are talking too.

Actually her success does not depend on anyone else.

>Agreed.  Lusby lost 350 out of 600 hives after varroa invaded her bees. 

Patently untrue in every aspect.  Where did you get those numberrs?  When Varroa arrived her and Ed had more like 1200 hives at the time, not 600, and they were not losing hives to Varroa.  They lost a lot back in the 80's to Tracheal mites and AFB but not to Varroa.  That's when they regressed them down to 4.9mm.  At the current time she has some major health issues so I can't say how her bees are doing since she can't really take care of them.  Last I saw her bees was about three or four years ago.  She is running less hives because she is not physically able, by herself, to keep up with 1200 hives anymore.  Maybe you should go down and actually look at her bees.  I did.  Several times.  I spent a couple of weeks once back in 2002 and we went to all their yards.  I have been back in her beeyards several times over the years since.  Her bees have always been thriving when I've seen them and I could never figure out what they live on in the desert.

[Acebird]

To test this, I shined a red laser at guard bees on the hive entrance, no reaction at all from a super bright blinding red laser.

Infrared is not red.  It is invisible.  Essentially it is heat and they have no problem sensing heat.  When you face a hive most of the heat comes out your eyes and nose.  That is why it is good to wear a veil.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

{Dee Lusby Organic Beekeeper
March 15, 2013 by Anita Deeley}

Above, one source for hostile bees of Lusby, with pic and video.  There are to many Lusby articles to quote.
Blessings

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Yes Ace, I know bees go for the eyes, if you say it is due to heat, OK.
Blessings

[bwallace23350]

I don't count myself as a good beekeeper. I am still learning. I am going on my 3rd year now. I started out with two hives. I lost what I thought was my stronger healthier hive over the first winter. I did not make a split last year or catch a swarm even though I asked around to people to let me know if they saw any swarms. My hive went into this winter super strong, with a shallow full of honey, and on warmer days I can see bees flying in and out of the hive. I will feed sometime in the winter to see if they need it. I hope to make splits this spring.

[Michael Bush]

I just read "Dee Lusby Organic Beekeeper March 15, 2013 by Anita Deeley" and find nothing about losses to Varroa or 350 hives lost to Varroa.  I've seen Dee's bees since 2013 and they were still going strong.  Apparently you are not even quoting a mistaken source.  I find people often take things out of context, do strange math and come up with things that are simply not true but they believe, by the way they have done their convoluted math, that is is true.  If Dee's hives have dwindled from 1200 back in the late 1990s down to, let's say the 700 mentioned in the article, that is not losses.  That is attrition because her husband died and she never could take care of 1200 hives by herself.  You do combines rather than splits and soon you have less hives, rather than more hives.  Also as you can't keep up more hives end up queenless that you don't catch and fix and more hives swarm because you're not there to do splits or preventive manipulations.  Last I saw Dee she could barely walk.  I'm sure she can't keep up with 700 hives anymore so I would expect that number to fall some more.  Not because of Varroa.  Not because her methods don't work.  Because she is human, getting older and not very mobile.  People's views of things are usually simplistic.  Reality is not. 

Let's try an example.  If I had 200 hives/nucs (and nucs don't survive as well as hives) going into the 2009 winter (and that's about what I had) and if I left the country (which I did) and did nothing to take care of my bees for the next six winters (which I did not have the time to do being out of the country and then on a book tour) and if I had average losses for Nebraska (as measured by the Bee Informed Partnership, which would be remarkable since nothing was really being done to manage the bees at all including no splits, no swarm control, no feeding etc.) what would be left at the end of those six winters?  Let's do the math.  Winter losses for Nebraska for 2009/10 were 28.54% average so that would leave 142 hives.  The next year average losses in Nebraska were 14.68% so that would leave 121 hives.  The next year, 2011/12 average Nebraska losses were 23.37% so that would leave 92 hives.  The next year 2012/13 Nebraska losses were 37.85% so that would leave 57 hives.  The next year 2013/14 Nebraska losses were 17.89% so that would leave 46 hives.  The next year 2014/2015 average Nebraska losses were 17.28% so that would leave 38 hives.  Remarkably, with no beekeeper intervention (which is not what I am recommending) I still had about 40 hives left, which is just about the average losses for Nebraska beekeepers who were doing swarm control, splits, feeding, requeening queenless hives, and probably some of them were doing Varroa treatments etc.  And yet, despite that reality, there are people who spread rumors that I had "devastating losses" of 160 hives in a year, which, if course, is simply not true. My hives dwindled from 200 to 40 from neglect over a period of six years, some of which I was out of the country and the rest of which I had no time.  If one ignores the complexities of reality one can make up whatever rumors one likes, I guess.  It still will not make them true.

[Acebird]

Reality is a hard thing to swallow...
I had three and I am down to two and the only ones fretting over it are the ones who want me to finish them off with chemicals (good beekeeping practices).
I don't have a lot of life left so I will be darned if I am going to spend the rest of it fretting.
We just came back from a trip from Longwood gardens (Christmas lights).  We stayed in a AB&B in Wilmington,DE.  We froze our ass in both places but I got my wife to laugh about it several times.  (She hates cold)  Her friends have said she would be cold wearing a sweater having lunch with the devil.  However, she has such a love of nature that she can overcome life's hardships.  Longwood Gardens is so spectacular that you can forget your worries and enjoy the moment.  A Christmas tree made up of entirely orhids did the trick.  My brother and sister in law live in SC.  They were hurting too but would not give up the experience for nothing.
Feeling good coming back to the north country where they know how to heat a house.

[Acebird]

I lost what I thought was my stronger healthier hive over the first winter.

If you ask me they are the hive that is at the greatest risk.  They are like teen age'rs that think they know everything.  My experience is the ones that have something to work for make out better.

[Dallasbeek]

Ace, there has to be a better time to go to Longwood Gardens.  You think they don't know how to heat a house, go to Scotland.  Darn cold, even in the fall.  Hate to think what it's like in January.

[Acebird]

Ace, there has to be a better time to go to Longwood Gardens. 

I have been there before in the summer time.  Fantastic!  But they also put on a heck of a display of Christmas lights and the place is huge.  The eating places are warm and the conservatory is warm.
On a Wednesday night in freezing cold they sell out.  The tickets are time slot so don't be late or you won't get in.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

((Above, one source for hostile bees of Lusby, with pic and video.))

This is cut and paste, my exact words.  Read it, simple, please do not misquote me.

There is some sensitive issue here and reactive post. My intent was not to offend any person.  My last comment on this thread will be this one.  Prosperous New Year to All.
Blessings. 

[yes2matt]

BTW - today marks the Winter Solstice (my equivalent of Xmas Day), and so I'll take this opportunity to wish everyone a very happy festive season, even though this is an earlier date than the majority of folk celebrate.
LJ

Happy belated Solstice to you.

I have only a couple of related observations:
> the more successful people in any endeavor are usually pretty quiet about it, unless to recommend hard work and disciplined study.
> I'm regularly surprised by folks who do not keep bees at all, yet have read an article or two about "the problem" enough to tell me what I should/shouldn't be doing.
> there is a difference between keeping livestock  (incl bees) and keeping a philosophy.
> sometimes I chime in on a discussion and am immediately interpreted to be prescribing a method, even while being careful with my language. It's sometimes an issue of culture.

I had a rough year, but have every intention of making the rebound. :)

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

[little john]

there is a difference between keeping livestock  (incl bees) and keeping a philosophy.

Yes, I agree. 

There appears to be two distinctly different groups of people who keep bees (or plan to): those who's motivation is principally based on long-term ecological or ideological issues - and then there are those who simply want to keep bees - as you say, as livestock.

This difference is perhaps most evident when discussing how best to deal with the problem of varroa.  The ecologially-minded beekeeper is quite often fully prepared to lose colonies as the necessary price to be paid in pursuit of a varroa-tolerant strain of bee, whereas livestock-oriented beekeepers will do whatever it takes to ensure that every single one of their existing colonies survives, year on year.

I'm not saying that one group is right and the other wrong, it's just that there exists (or certainly appears to exist) two completely different agendas.  Fortunately, this forum is so much better than most, with a fair degree of tolerance being shown here when opposing philosophies are being expressed - and this, despite the enthusiastic passion which beekeepers invariably display when discussing these amazing little insects.

Good luck re: the rebound ...
LJ

[Joe D]

I think you should check out bee keeping before you start with bees.  Talk to local beekeepers, join beekeeping clubs, and read everything you can find.  The decide how you want to keep your bees, if it works for you great, if not try doing it different, hopefully better.  I do lots of things different from most, and I don't try to push it, but I like it.  I don't treat for mites, have never.  The local club I joined has several commercial beeks, they usually lose more colonies percentage wise that I do.  They also have to change the chemicals used every couple of years.  I am in south Mississippi, it is hot here in the summer, Oh I am a hobbyist, I have my colonies under a roof open on all sides except the north, I have a water container within a few feet of each colony, if they don't have a good honey flow I will not take what they have, we usually can get two extraction a year.  I try not to have to feed them and I think their honey is better for them that what I could give them.  I try to keep a eye on how they are doing though out the year. I have had bees now for seven or eight years, and I have lost a few, had some just leave, had some robbed etc.  I will cull a queen if the hive is mean.  Personally I like the Cordovan and the Russian bees that I have had.  I have done a few thing to help with small hive beetle. I do get to rambling too.
Good luck to you all and your bees

Joe D

[little john]

After I'd posted it occurred to me that the treating or not-treating of varroa might not be the best example of what I'm talking about.  Perhaps our attitudes towards wasps would be better.

Although my memory is no longer uber-reliable, I'm pretty sure it was on this forum within the last year that there was a discussion regarding wasps.  As a livestock-beekeeper, I see wasps as potential threats to my colonies, and so I have no hesitation whatsoever of killing them on sight.  That's not to say I've mounted some kind of crusade against the wasp, but if I should come across one which is sniffing around the hive or better still, a nest somewhere within the garden - then I feel it's 'my duty' on behalf of the livestock I keep, to eliminate this threat.  If I didn't keep bees, then I'm sure my attitude would be different - but I do, and so it isn't.

Other beekeepers in that thread were voicing an attitude of leaving the wasps alone as (in my words) they are but one part of the rich tapestry of life, and that in order to respect the balance of Nature they have the right not to be molested.  That, I would say, is an essentially 'ecological' perspective towards the craft of beekeeping.

So, are we concerned primarily with the welfare of our bees - or of the whole vista of life upon this planet ?  I guess that is a question that only each person can answer for themselves.
LJ

[Acebird]

So, are we concerned primarily with the welfare of our bees - or of the whole vista of life upon this planet ?

If you are a farmer you poison weeds and insects because it affects the products you hope to sell.  If you are a gardener you may do the same but some gardeners will not poison weeds and insects because they plan on eating the products themselves.  Their solution is to grow more then they need.
A commercial beekeeper will dump poisons on their hives because it affects the products they hope to sell.  Some beekeepers will do the same.  But some beekeepers will not dump poisons on their hives because they intend to consume the products of their hives themselves.  Their solution is to have more hives then they need.  That would be three.

In each case the viewpoints are different because the reference is different.

I don't pay attention to wasp because they are at an extreme disadvantage to a healthy hive of honeybees.  Mankind has always battled nature and never seems to win.

[little john]

I notice you used the phrase 'hope to sell' - as if the only justification for  the existence of large-scale beekeeping operations is financial.  That may well be each individual commercial beekeeper's motivation - but when such activities are viewed from a national or international perspective, how exactly would the annual demand for many thousands of tons of honey ever be met by alternatives - (say) by hobby beekeepers, each with their 3 hives, and who harvest but a few jars of honey each year for the consumption of themselves and of those close to them ?

I used to be a practitioner of self-sufficiency, which so many people - certainly here in the UK - view as being some kind of idyllic lifestyle: living off the land as Nature intended, independent of mainstream society.  Until I woke up one morning and realised just how selfish this "I'm all right Jack, sod the rest" approach to life really is.  Much healthier I think, to interact with society, to contribute towards supplying society's needs, including it's demands for honey by the ton.  I can't produce honey in any volume myself, by virtue of being located within an agro-industrial area, and so my activities are targeted towards supplying bees to those who can.

By all means let the hobby-beekeeper enjoy their pursuit - it must be one of the finest hobbies imaginable - but let not the increasingly vociferous hobby beekeeper faction (many of whom have a primarily ecological agenda) continue to lecture those running much larger operations, promoting their own methodologies which very often involve substantial colony losses.  The expression "dumping poisons into beehives" being but one example of the emotive rhetoric employed by such people.
LJ

[gww]

lj
It is what it is but it is also hard to say what is better.  I remember being young and raising a few hogs and a bucket calf or two.  Back then everybody did it.  Then along comes the factory pigg raisers that base thier profit margine on having 35 thousand pigs and just making less on each one.  Now there are not many out there just keeping a few and that being everywhere.  Same with fish where we ship all our spiecies to far shores and what we eat is shipped to us from far away.  I don't know that taking the profit margin away from the small spred out producers made the food system any stronger but it is what it is.  The trends to bring food prodution back with farmers markets and such may be better or may not be as efficiant.  I am too dumb to know.  I would say if we ever have a war where shipping is disrupted that being able to do it local will be better and if shipping is open what we have now may not be bad.  Hard to say that one view is better or worse.  It has changed since I was a kid and it would be hard for me to say all those changes are good or bad.  It would depend on what I wanted to do as to how I felt about it at differrent times.
Cheers
gww

[Acebird]

"emotive rhetoric"

Is an expression used by some people who don't like opinions that are different then theirs.

You started this thread with the intention of shaming people who don't agree with your views.  I use the term "dumping poisons" because it describes to me what they are doing.  In the case of agriculture I am not so naive to think I could survive without their efforts.  In the case of honey though not one pound is needed, it is only desired.  The production of honey by large beekeeping operations does not affect me.  What they do is up to them.  I don't begrudge them from making a living however they want to.  They should not try to force me to do it their way.

[eltalia]

AB wrote in part;
>Is an expression used by some people who don't like
>opinions that are different then theirs.

And right there is an opinion designed in disguising
thinly what the statement really is.

> You started this thread with the intention of shaming
>people who don't agree with your views.

In snapshot - having just read the the thread - it is my take LJ
expressed a concern for yet another instance where the blind
could lead the unknowing. Noted is the circumstance is quoted
from another forum. Interesting it is to note your passion here
despite owned failures in having bees in your yard, bees of a kind.

Always happy enough as a bee wrangler(livestock manager) to help
out folk willing to pay attention I would offer those who argue justification
for losses could well be focused moreso on Internet than any Bee Cycle.

Bill