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Author Topic: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?  (Read 6220 times)

Offline little john

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What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« on: December 21, 2017, 09:16:56 am »
I guess everyone has their own ideas about this ?  My view is that successful beekeeping is 'good' beekeeping - that is, if your colonies come through winter without significant losses each year, and if your techniques for multiplying colony numbers and raising queens are likewise successful - then surely you must be doing something 'right' ...
And, even if you should find that something controversial (such as observing ley-lines or similar) actually works ok in practice - then why not stick with that practice ?

But if your colonies keep dying on you - then that suggests that some other approach really needs to be tried - for the proof of the pudding, it is said, lies in the eating of it. 

So why this post, and why now ?

Well, I've just read a post about the so-called 'Small Hive Project' ( https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=50626.0 ) in which the author is claiming that spacing hives apart in excess of 1 metre is 'essential' when running colonies treatment-free.  And yet he describes losing ALL of his colonies (pretty obviously from a severe Varroa infestation) when they were already spaced 2-3 metres apart.  So that tells me that spacing probably isn't much of an issue in this case, and that the ultimate cause lies elsewhere.  If frequent swarming AND spacing the hives apart isn't working in the fight against Varroa - isn't it time to at least consider some other approach, such as treating with a miticide ?

As I see it, if a guy wants to run treatment-free, and loses ALL of his colonies in the process - that's his business, and not anyone else's.  But - if he's encouraging others from the facilities of a beekeeping forum to follow his particular methodology, and clutching at unproven straws in an attempt to maintain an apparently unwise ideology - than maybe this needs to be discussed within that forum ?


BTW - today marks the Winter Solstice (my equivalent of Xmas Day), and so I'll take this opportunity to wish everyone a very happy festive season, even though this is an earlier date than the majority of folk celebrate.
LJ
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Offline Acebird

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2017, 09:36:03 am »
If frequent swarming AND spacing the hives apart isn't working in the fight against Varroa - isn't it time to at least consider some other approach, such as treating with a miticide ?

What if there are beekeepers doing just that right next to him?  Their treatments could be culling out the weak mites while the stronger ones live that his untreated bees can't handle.  I do have to agree with you on whether the hives are 3 inches apart or 3 meters apart what is the difference.  If I was losing all my hives every year I would rethink where I am getting my bees before I would rethink treating them.  I didn't read the other thread but another thing comes to mind when someone consistently loses all their hives.  Maybe they are treating their bees but not in the right way.  They could be killing them with kindness.
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Offline Troutdog

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2017, 09:41:27 am »
I guess everyone has their own ideas about this ?  My view is that successful beekeeping is 'good' beekeeping - that is, if your colonies come through winter without significant losses each year, and if your techniques for multiplying colony numbers and raising queens are likewise successful - then surely you must be doing something 'right' ...
And, even if you should find that something controversial (such as observing ley-lines or similar) actually works ok in practice - then why not stick with that practice ?

But if your colonies keep dying on you - then that suggests that some other approach really needs to be tried - for the proof of the pudding, it is said, lies in the eating of it. 

So why this post, and why now ?

Well, I've just read a post about the so-called 'Small Hive Project' ( https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=50626.0 ) in which the author is claiming that spacing hives apart in excess of 1 metre is 'essential' when running colonies treatment-free.  And yet he describes losing ALL of his colonies (pretty obviously from a severe Varroa infestation) when they were already spaced 2-3 metres apart.  So that tells me that spacing probably isn't much of an issue in this case, and that the ultimate cause lies elsewhere.  If frequent swarming AND spacing the hives apart isn't working in the fight against Varroa - isn't it time to at least consider some other approach, such as treating with a miticide ?

As I see it, if a guy wants to run treatment-free, and loses ALL of his colonies in the process - that's his business, and not anyone else's.  But - if he's encouraging others from the facilities of a beekeeping forum to follow his particular methodology, and clutching at unproven straws in an attempt to maintain an apparently unwise ideology - than maybe this needs to be discussed within that forum ?


BTW - today marks the Winter Solstice (my equivalent of Xmas Day), and so I'll take this opportunity to wish everyone a very happy festive season, even though this is an earlier date than the majority of folk celebrate.
LJ
HI LJ

beekeeping is a mirror of society in general. At the moment we seem to have less intelligence than our fore fathers. This trend will continue. Sit back and enjoy it from the sidelines.
I guess it would be funny if it wasn't so sad and dangerous to the rest.

Good management is like common sense not so common. Sadly, thick headed idealists who don't know jack about bees will profess with great din about how to bee.
I prefer to be with like minded people who don't know anything but have learned a lot.
Cheers


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Offline Acebird

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2017, 10:05:56 am »
At the moment we seem to have less intelligence than our fore fathers.

I am sure our fore fathers could have designed a smart phone but they wanted to do what their fathers did and carry messages on horseback.  And I see you are using one of those devices from the stupid generation.  How ironic.
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Offline Troutdog

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2017, 10:16:47 am »
At the moment we seem to have less intelligence than our fore fathers.

I am sure our fore fathers could have designed a smart phone but they wanted to do what their fathers did and carry messages on horseback.  And I see you are using one of those devices from the stupid generation.  How ironic.
I know right, lol that's funny, point taken.
Conversely,
 we keep marginal bees and people alive. Then they breed......

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Offline little john

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2017, 10:29:54 am »
I didn't read the other thread ...

It's not a 'thread' as such - it's a project in which the guy is encouraging other people (beginners - who else would ?) to copy his unproven ideas.  If those ideas worked ok - there'd be no negative criticism from me ... but they clearly don't. 

I guess what I'm asking is: "should people who are experiencing failure, really be encouraging others to copy their methods ?"  That seems barking mad to me.
LJ
 


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Offline gww

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2017, 10:42:15 am »
I do find promoting something differrent then doing something and then saying this is what I did and this is what happenned and this is why I think it happenned.  I also have seen people get an ideal in thier head and just start something and then promote it like it was already a done deal.

I agree with anyone who wants to try something and is willing to take the good or bad of that as being thier buisness.  I also say that apparrently there is no right way to keep bees cause many keep them successful in many differrent ways.  I am not sure that even those poeple having success where others don't always know for sure why stuff is working but they do know what they are doing.  I believe there are people successfully raising treatment free bees and also successful treaters.  I don't believe everything works for every one in the same way due to things that may be going on that they don't know about or things one is doing differrent that he doesn't even reconize is part of the reason for success.

In the end, you have to pick your own path and adjust till you get it to where you are getting enough to consider it an success for yourself.

Even good bee keepers can have bad things happen but the guy that has stuck with it for some time and is getting enough to keep sticking with it is one that I don't automatically discount his advice.  My view is that caution should be had with new guys picking and choosing what is out there that people are doing while deciding what fits his position and then look at his bees and make adjustment untill they live for him.

I do understand and agree that the expirement being presented as fact when it should be presented as an on going expirment would be most helpful over all.
Cheers
gww

Offline Kathyp

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2017, 01:36:18 pm »
it's the same with all things we do.  Everyone has their best way. 

Every area is different.  Every beekeeper is different.  Being willing to try different things rather than getting stuck on a "method" is the key I think, and that means learning, learning, learning......and some experimentation. 
Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2017, 02:11:57 pm »
My hives have all been touching now for almost two decades and they have done better than when I had them further apart.  I think because of huddling them for warmth in winter, but I have no real issues with Varroa and I haven't treated for Varroa at all since 2003 and most of them since 2001.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Offline Acebird

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2017, 02:21:35 pm »
If those ideas worked ok - there'd be no negative criticism from me ... but they clearly don't. 

I know some people didn't like some of my ideas when I first started.  They felt exactly like you do.  When a newbie tries to sell an idea he/she is up against many years of experience, maybe like yourself.  Maybe that newbie is expressing an idea that another person has or believes in.  If the person keeps quiet they don't even have a chance to lean what they are doing wrong.  And someone who is afraid to voice what they are thinking doesn't lean either.  It should not upset anyone with experience and knowledge to voice why an idea doesn't hold water.  That to me is how a newbie leans.  I doubt any newbies are failing because they followed a half baked idea from another newbie.  Yet there seems to be this fear that that would happen.
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Offline little john

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2017, 08:32:27 am »
If those ideas worked ok - there'd be no negative criticism from me ... but they clearly don't. 

I know some people didn't like some of my ideas when I first started. 

Brian - can you honestly say that your ideas have worked thus far ?  Not long ago you mentioned that you're currently entering winter with just one remaining colony, although you once had more, and now intend to split this in order to return to the previous number.  Needless to say I sincerely hope that this colony will survive the winter ok, in order that you can then proceed to make that increase.

I'm reminded of something that somebody (dunno who it was, off-hand) once said:
Quote
Head-on attempts to persuade can sometimes trigger a backfire effect, where people not only fail to change their minds when confronted with facts ? they may even hold on to their erroneous views more tenaciously than ever.

And the facts in the example I gave at the beginning of this thread - is that this guy has lost ALL of his colonies, and yet is confident that he knows the exact reason for this failure - and is encouraging others to do as he is doing.

Reminds me of the bloke at the roulette wheel who claims to have invented 'an infallible system' - but when testing it has lost every single penny he owns - and yet he still maintains a blind faith that the system is infallible and so continues to promote his system to others.

LJ
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Offline Acebird

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2017, 09:38:05 am »
If those ideas worked ok - there'd be no negative criticism from me ... but they clearly don't. 

I know some people didn't like some of my ideas when I first started. 

Brian - can you honestly say that your ideas have worked thus far ?

Well not all of them.  Can you say today all of your ideas work not just for you but for everyone else?  There are plenty of newbies treating bees that lose all their hives.  The odds are against them when they have so few hives to begin with and they have to start with someone else's bees that most likely were treated.
BTW I presently have two hives going through winter.  I had three last year and lost two in the fall.  I think weather has made the most impact.  When hives had been populous yet the result is much less honey yield I blame mother nature.  We lost all our corn, onions, tomatoes, and beans this year.  Bumper crop of potatoes, go figure.  Does that mean I don't know how to garden?  Maybe.
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Offline beepro

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2017, 08:25:27 pm »
There are other factors at play other than the hive spacing.
With good forage the bees can withstand the mites better than a poorly feed colony through out the
season.  What work in one area may not be duplicated in another because of the environmental differences.
I rather solve my bee issues than following other's footstep.

Offline little john

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2017, 09:15:17 am »
Hi Brian

The weather often gets blamed - people on this side of the pond do it all the time.  Anyone can keep bees in ideal conditions - it's when the weather presents challenges, that's when beekeepers can use their 'skill'.  I've written 'skill' in quotes because I don't think it's quite the right word to use.  Success under demanding conditions isn't about learned skills exactly, (imo) it's far more about exercising flexibility of approach, about not having a rigid mind-set - and I'm not sure one can learn that from lectures or books.

I'm going to stick my neck out a long way here and say that - with the exception of the Foul Brood diseases - there's no good reason for any managed honeybee colony to die.  Now that's quite a statement ...

I hear some people saying they don't treat - that they won't treat. Many lose colonies.
I hear some people saying that they won't inspect their hives during the season - so those guys never get to have any awareness of colony conditions - and so they lose colonies.
I hear some people saying that they won't supplementary feed under any circumstances - and they certainly lose colonies.
I hear some people blame poor mating conditions for later unforseen colony failure.   But why haven't they kept a few nucs back for emergency re-queening ?

Of course, in practice there will always be a few losses - and there's no reason for anyone to beat themselves up about this happening - but such losses could so easily be reduced to an absolute minimum.  Isn't that what we should all be aiming for ?

In closing I would urge anyone reading this post to check out:
http://theapiarist.org/principles-and-practice/
as fatshark puts the case there for active colony management much better than my own efforts here.

LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline little john

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2017, 09:24:13 am »
There are other factors at play other than the hive spacing.
With good forage the bees can withstand the mites better than a poorly feed colony through out the
season. What work in one area may not be duplicated in another because of the environmental differences.
I rather solve my bee issues than following other's footstep.

I think the local environment is an important factor - or even several non-determined factors.  I found myself reading an article by Kirk Webster a couple of days ago in which he mentioned Dee Lusby - who runs her operation within the Arizona desert - as being one of the first and most successful 'treatment-free' beekeepers who commenced that approach prior to the advent of Varroa.  Now I've no idea how much relative isolation that desert provides, or to what degree the climatic conditions there affect the bees' behaviour - but I would suggest that for another beekeeper in an area with a significantly different climate, and perhaps surrounded by several other apiaries 'within range'- to adopt a treatment-free protocol solely based on the Lusby's success, would be extremely unwise.

There does appear to be a lemming-like mentality within beekeepers - and to some degree this is understandable - as we're dealing with a creature who's behaviour remains very poorly understood, in part due to it having sense organs far different than our own.  All we can ever do is to observe carefully and try to interpret the bees' behaviour in the best way we can ... but always these observations will be filtered through human perception and our own human understanding of the world around us.  So there will always remain uncertainty and prejudiced personal observations.  Which is why any question related to beekeeping is invariably met with a variety of answers.

But the beginner - understandably - seeks certainty, as they want to do the best by their bees.  Of course.  And so a problem then exists - precisely because there is no such certainty in beekeeping.  Some beginners (thankfully not all) not unreasonably turn to those who appear to speak with authority, and duly copy their methods on the basis of faith rather than their own hard-won experiential experience.

Ok - there is a further complication, and that is 'time-lag'.  If a person was to die 15 minutes after smoking a cigarette, people wouldn't smoke.  They wouldn't dare to smoke tobacco.  But the effects of smoking - the coating of sensitive lung tissue with deposits of tar - may not manifest itself for 10, 20 years ... and sometimes never.  It's a game of roulette.

I assume you'll have heard the anecdote of the guy who jumped out of a skyscraper window and as he passed each floor was heard to be muttering, "Ok so far, Ok so far."  That's what I hear from people who've adopted a non-treatment approach to beekeeping - that it works - or should I say "It's ok so far".

Non-treatment of Varroa is no different from smoking - you may get away with this approach for a year or two - and then it'll bite you on the bum.  You might be able to run treatment-free for decades - perhaps even indefinitely - you might indeed be that lucky.  Or you might not.

So how on earth is a person to then decide about any beekeeping practice, not just about the treatment/treatment-free issue ?  That's why I'm suggesting that proven success is by far the best barometer to use.  Your own success, preferably (of course), or the success of those local to you.  Use what works, and has been shown to work - and treat unsubstantiated or untried methods with suspicion.  I cannot see any sense in following the ideas of someone who has a track record of failure - no matter how good the sales-pitch.

LJ
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Offline Acebird

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2017, 10:08:31 am »
Non-treatment of Varroa is no different from smoking
Really LJ?  Chemical treatment for varroa is no different than smoking.  All you have to do is look at many years of trying to control pests with chemicals for many many years.  It is all documented.  Some of it is also scientifically proven just like cigarettes.  You can even make a correlation between drugs and disease in any animal.

Quote
Use what works, and has been shown to work
But you can't show me because what you are doing doesn't work.  Everyone that treats loses hives no matter how much knowledge and experience they have.
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Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2017, 10:48:48 am »
How well Lusby does depends on who you are talking too.  We all have opinions, and it pays to be cautious when taking advice, especially from the net.

What most beekeepers fail to grasp when starting to learn about bees is that standard beekeeping practices are used because they have been found to work.  They are based on the experience of many generations of beekeepers, not the limited experience of a very few.  Those standard practices are the ones beginners should learn, but for some reason beginners always want to follow the "Leader" that promises them success by going down a different path, one that is different than the one used by everyone else.

I am not saying that beekeepers should never try something new, just that they should wait to try after they have become proficient in keeping bees.  Most things "new" have been tried before and were found to fail, just read the old issues of American Bee Journal or Gleanings in Bee Culture and count the products that are no longer advertised, and see the ideas and attitudes had by the beekeepers of those time periods.

Beekeepers are very individualistic, we all like to "tweek" our beekeeping practices to make things easier or more enjoyable for ourselves, but some want to change the world of beekeeping to match their ideas or practices, whether those ideas and practices are sound or not. 

Offline Acebird

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2017, 07:39:32 pm »
one that is different than the one used by everyone else.

Aren't they the leaders?  Can you name them instead of wasting all the newbies time trying to figure out who they are?
Seriously, you could go to Beesource and find out who they are and never have a problem raising bees.  Funny thing is that forum has nothing but newbies riddled with problems and experts beating them over the head on how to solve their problems.  Do you think it is working?  Why are they here?
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Offline tjc1

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2017, 09:37:55 pm »
I think that AR is talking about information on beekeeping wisdom and practice that has been built up over many years, and that is available in the large quantity of 'standard' print sources. Current beekeeping stalwarts (example, Michael Bush and others) often make reference to the earlier beeks and their experiences. I get what AR is saying about this in relation to new beeks and agree that it would arguably be best for new beeks to get grounded in the basics and get to know bees and get familiar with working with them before getting into some of the more esoteric/experimental approaches. For one example, I was tempted as a newbie to start with a top bar hive (or even a Warre hive) - the idea of a 'more natural' approach appealed to me. I am very glad that I started instead with  standard 10 frame Langstroth deeps (including foundation). I have since moved to all mediums and foundationless which I find suits me better - which I discovered by personal experience. Further experience may push me to other approaches, but I feel like after 5 years I have a good foundation in the basics. I am also grateful for all of the help I have had along the way from folks here at Beemaster!

Offline Acebird

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Re: What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2017, 10:21:53 am »
A very high percentage of newbies take up beekeeping as a hobby.  It is not uncommon to get excited by a new hobby way before you have any idea what is involved.  If they get real excited about it they can fumble around for four or five years learning the ropes.  That usually involves a lot of mistakes.  There are some that jump in blindly but most are doing some reading and research before they grab on to their own approach.  I see nothing wrong with the mistake approach as a hobbyist.
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