Author Topic: Apiary layout and drift (Read 6196 times)

UrbisAgricola · « **Reply #20 on:** November 05, 2017, 08:38:28 pm »

Those are some useful comments, folks. Many thanks. I'm open to more input as well.

Acebird · « **Reply #21 on:** November 06, 2017, 08:50:36 am »

Super! Now I can say goodbye to photobucket.
No ladder. I made a box jack that will lift the supers up 2" so I can slip an escape board in between. With no bees in the box it is not as hard to get the top box off. I don't have to worry about smashing a lot of bees.
Well not that you can see how close my hives are plus the fact that this is how I split I can tell you that the drift occurs within the first few days or one week. After the hive starts raising its queen the population stays constant until the queen starts laying. My success at this I believe is flow related which is weather related. You see that my hives are all white. I agree with LJ. Color of the hive has little effect on drift. It may play a roll in thermo dynamics but that is all I can see.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #22 on:** November 06, 2017, 11:03:51 am »

Hives facing north do not do well in my climate... The downside of drift is overstated. Who cares what hive my bees are in?

UrbisAgricola · « **Reply #23 on:** November 06, 2017, 11:42:18 am »

Quote from: Michael Bush on November 06, 2017, 11:03:51 am

Hives facing north do not do well in my climate...

Interesting. Query whether in a milder climate such as England, the benefit of combating drift outweighs the climate concern.

Brother Adam asks your question almost exactly, ("...what does it matter if the bees are accepted in a hive not their own") The problem with drift, as he sees it, is drifting is the fastest way to spread disease from one hive to another, he thinks it is responsible for the loss of many queens, and colonies in which drifting bees accumulate (typically at the end of a row) fail to produce crops corresponding to their strength due to an imbalance and lack of harmony in the composition of the colony.

little john · « **Reply #24 on:** November 06, 2017, 12:25:51 pm »

Quote from: UrbisAgricola on November 05, 2017, 08:38:28 pm

I'm open to more input as well.

As with most beekeeping issues - there is no one definitive way to arrange one's hives to minimise drifting (which in my opinion IS important, for as you point out: a serious imbalance can indeed be fatal. Also, drifting is one known vector of Varroa infestation - robbing being another).

As examples: some folk arrange boxes in circles: http://theapiarist.org/circle-splits/

If you download an earlier copy of Warre's book (rather than the 12th Edition, which most people focus on), you'll find several photographs and a wood-cut within the first twenty pages showing large numbers of hives packed very closely together, and lined-up in straight rows: http://warre.biobees.com/warre_5th_edition.pdf

Finally, Johann Dzierzon - one of the greatest beekeepers that ever lived - used to favour the 'Twin-Stock', which is basically an arrangement of two hives clamped together, back-to-back. He used to then position these in various configurations - often as multiples. Here's an example where he's placed four twin-stocks directly on top of each other, with each twin-stock oriented at 90 degrees to the twin-stock below it:

Each person will no doubt swear on a stack of bibles that their method is superior to that of any other. Guess each beekeeper has to find out by trial and error what works best for them ...
LJ

UrbisAgricola · « **Reply #25 on:** November 06, 2017, 12:57:06 pm »

Thank you, LJ.

How long have you been maintaining your "A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping"? I think your analogy to fundamentalism is apt. In the US, depending on how you count, there are something like 30,000 religious denominations. They can't all be right, but they can be pretty dogmatic. It's about the same with beekeepers sometimes.

The interesting thing about beekeeping, is that, for me, I find tradition is a better (though it does not have to be exclusive) guide than logic and what passes for "science" in most areas (including religion, to borrow from your analogy). However, beekeeping seems to be something constantly evolving.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #26 on:** November 06, 2017, 04:12:37 pm »

>The problem with drift, as he sees it, is drifting is the fastest way to spread disease from one hive to another, he thinks it is responsible for the loss of many queens, and colonies in which drifting bees accumulate (typically at the end of a row) fail to produce crops corresponding to their strength due to an imbalance and lack of harmony in the composition of the colony.

Drifting is inevitable at some level:
"The percentage of foragers originating from different colonies within the apiary ranged from 32 to 63 percent"--from a paper, published in 1991 by Walter Boylan-Pett and Roger Hoopingarner in Acta Horticulturae 288, 6th Pollination Symposium (see Jan 2010 edition of Bee Culture, 36)

I think all your efforts will merely lower the percentage from 63 percent down to 32 percent. Any disease will get passed just as well at 32 percent...

Oldbeavo · « **Reply #27 on:** November 06, 2017, 04:22:55 pm »

We had a drift one summer where the bees were in a line with structures behind them.
The bees could not fit into the end hives and our solution was to shift supers of bees back to the center hives and hope they stayed.
I believe drifting is due to lack of back ground structures to orientate to, where we have no structures such as in the middle of a crop we do face bees in all directions and in small groups, about 8-10 per group with the groups slightly different in shape.
I agree with Michael B in that some drift occurs every time we shift our bees, so the weaker hives are put in the front row.

UrbisAgricola · « **Reply #28 on:** November 06, 2017, 04:45:17 pm »

Oldbeavo, probably a good point about structures. Incidentally, Brother Adam provided pictures that demonstrated drift (you can see supers stacked high on the ends of rows of about a dozen hives). The photo is in a large open field--exactly what you are talking about.

Bro. Adam also acknowledges that drift cannot be eliminated.

I'm not marrying myself to Br. Adam, just giving him voice here since I am currently reading his book, it was the genesis of my question and he has passed from this world and is thus unable to weigh in this discussion thread.

Here are follow up questions for anyone who cares to weigh in:

1. Assuming a person lives in a mild climate in terms of low temps, what would be the advantage of putting hives all facing the same direction? (dodging bee traffic? Facing them east so early sun gets the bees out foraging?)

2. With the same assumption, why would someone not want to use Bro. Adams' layout? (four hives grouped together facing different directions and the groups of four look to be spaced such that a truck could be driven between.

UrbisAgricola · « **Reply #29 on:** November 06, 2017, 04:49:25 pm »

FWIW, I live about 30 miles from the Gulf of Mexico, so cold temps are not much of an issue

Michael Bush · « **Reply #30 on:** November 06, 2017, 05:44:25 pm »

I just saw a presentation Noah Wilson-Rich this weekend on hive direction vs survival. The highest percentage of survival was with west facing hives. Of course, prevailing winds in your location may change that. I think west isn't the best here as winter winds usually come out of the west or northwest. North was the lowest survivability. East and south were about even and not that far from west.

UrbisAgricola · « **Reply #31 on:** November 06, 2017, 05:55:04 pm »

Interesting. I just googled to see if I could find any background on that. I'd be curious to know how that was studied. I'm assuming these survival rates are averages throughout the world not just in a particular locale.

AR Beekeeper · « **Reply #32 on:** November 06, 2017, 06:07:55 pm »

Different studies, done at different times and with different bees, have shown different percentages of drifting bees. The most drifting occurred with young bees on their first few orientation flights, especially under windy conditions. I saw this summer much drifting in my home yard because of this.

I have used Br. Adam's 4 colony grouping in my outyards, and it works well, my only problem was with mowing and weed control around and between colonies within the groups. If sufficient work space is left between colonies within the group it makes the working of colonies more enjoyable. Colors and shapes at entrances have never worked for me, only facing entrances in different directions have made a difference. In my beeyards with trees for wind protection the direction the entrance faces makes little or no difference in colony's wellbeing or honey production.

UrbisAgricola · « **Reply #33 on:** November 06, 2017, 07:07:45 pm »

AR: how do you space your sets of 4?

Yeah, the weed control, I could see being a problem. I lay roll roofing down to mitigate SHB's but it gets kind of worn after a season or two. This may be madness, but I am experimenting by smothering out grass, then laying down large plastic political signs, then the roll roofing. We'll see.

I tried commercial strength weed barrier cloth. It saves some labor (but adds expense) and was not satisfactory because nutgrass pokes through.

We have some truly hellacious weeds here. A good weedeater does the trick but they are high maintenance. The repairman charges $75 an hour and I would rather drive nails in my skull than do mechanical repairs.

AR Beekeeper · « **Reply #34 on:** November 06, 2017, 08:41:21 pm »

The yards where I used Adam's spacing were on property owned by others so I was limited in what controls I could use. If on my property I would use plastic and gravel, or cement below the stands along with Roundup on the perimeter.

I had space to walk around the stands, but I did not have enough to sit on a workstool while inspecting. My back needs to be pampered anymore, I can't stand very long, or bend over for any length of time. My home yard is setup with concrete pads for rows of pairs, so I live with what drift occurs. I will reduce my numbers next spring and then I plan on facing the colonies that are in pairs in different directions, and having some pads with only one colony.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #35 on:** November 06, 2017, 08:52:55 pm »

"A good weedeater does the trick but they are high maintenance. The repairman charges $75 an hour"
Urbis,
What type of gas are you using in your weedeater. Ethanol gas destroys the rubber valves in the carburetor. Use pure gas and it will last a long time.
Ethanol gas destroys all types of farm machinery.
It is worth the extra 50 cents per gallon to protect your equipment.
Thank your congress man for destroying all those weedeaters.
Jim

paus · « **Reply #36 on:** November 06, 2017, 11:00:58 pm »

Sawdust is right about ethanol, and especially in 2 cycle engines. My mechanic told me avgas is best for chainsaws, next is non ethanol 91 octane auto gas, this does not destroy carbs and every thing runs better on pure gasoline.

Oldbeavo · « **Reply #37 on:** November 06, 2017, 11:34:50 pm »

In the southern hemisphere north and east are the preferred directions with south the worst.
We place our hives in rows where the next row is staggered to allow the hive behind a flight path with all entrances facing the same direction.
I suppose you can work at the side of a hive without being in the direct flight path of another hive.

little john · « **Reply #38 on:** November 07, 2017, 09:03:29 am »

Quote from: UrbisAgricola on November 06, 2017, 12:57:06 pm

How long have you been maintaining your "A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping"?

A couple of years - but there's still precious little information on that site. Full kudos to those who can find the time to keep their webpages up-to-date and interesting.
LJ

Michael Bush · « **Reply #39 on:** November 07, 2017, 10:39:25 am »

> I'd be curious to know how that was studied. I'm assuming these survival rates are averages throughout the world not just in a particular locale.

The presentation was by Noah Wilson-Rich who is the founder of https://bestbees.com You might ask him. You could address them to bestbees: info@bestbees.com I don't know, but my impression was it was in North America. I'm sure everything south of the equator will be quite different.