Is this a laying worker hive?

[FlexMedia.tv]

I'm reading up on laying workers and I think I have one, if someone can verify. I only think this because the cells look messy like my wife's shoe closet. *grin!*

My one hive is neat with one egg in each cell. The other has different size larvae, 2-3 eggs in a cell, eggs on top of larvae, etc. If this is normal, ok but if it's not, does it hurt anything and is there a remedy?
Thanks,
Art

Normal eggs?


Worker eggs?


Hard to see but looks like multiple eggs in one cell


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[Barhopper]

How old is the queen?

[eltalia]

Those domed cappings in that pattern in that place certainly do not
bode well, FM.tv.
That first pix..?.. is showing partially drawn cells on new black foundation?
If so, definitely LW action happening.

To fix LW I have mine own method and there is another floating around
that should work, reportedly works, and then there is Michael's resource
insertion method. But coming into the winter..?.. I reckon the way forward
may well bee to freeze those brood then have a colony clean the surplus
 out as their stores.
The bees are toast for the same reason, sadly.
Your call, it being how many weeks to foraging ceasing.

I lay out my method below, as in prime time with queens well available
locally it may be worth a shot if the colony has loads of stores beyond the
practical of keeping for next Spring.

Cheers.

Bill
__________________________________________________________
[from archives]
It's all about pheromones or better yet the bee's perspective of pheromone
presence.
Here is how you go about a rescue now.
#Obtain a proven laying queen along with a handfull of attendants.
Sufficient numbers would be supplied with a purchased queen, ask for
more if available.
# Using the existing brood box select one drawn frame with honey and pollen stores. Remove all eggs/larvae in cells on that frame.
# Close the entrance in two parts. The first external to frame position #1, use a fine stainless steel mesh, mosquito grade.
The second to fill the remainder of the entrance to frame position #8, use ply or a light timber moulding.
# Into an empty sealable box shake all bees. Place lid and set box on ground in front of hive.
# Place the selected frame into the brood chamber at position #1 and fit a premade 2mm ply carboard divider [1]
# Add queen and attendants to the frame.
# Place a feeder of type into the void beyond the divider.
# Place lid on hive.
# Remove lid on box of bees and place a ramp to landing board of hive.
At this time it is a choice to do nothing more or begin a march into the hive with applicable smoke.
# Check the feeder after two days and refill if required.
# On the fourth day confirm the divider has been penetrated.
# On the sixth day remove the divider and reposition the frame to
position #5 and add back the original frames.
#6 Remove entrance screen and closure and add queen restrictor to the entrance.
#7 After nine days inspect all brood frames and remove any queen cell/cups found. If adding back honey supers at this time install a queen excluder above the brood chamber.



[1] For a colony low on numbers tweak the divider using
a penetration maybe 10"L x 2" H covering this with newspaper
two pages thick and as close to the bottom board as your cardboard strength will allow (~ 1/ 4"?).

Your existing bees will get over themselves with nought else to do but chew paper in getting to the new queen and keep themselves alive by foraging and doing hive cooling . Those workers intent on laying will soon change attitude through lack of opportunity and age .
Within maybe five days your new queen will be laying and the bees will be through the paper and doing their normal bee things on the frame. You can then add your previous frames back , removing the divider, the bees will clean them up.

[BeeMaster2]

I disagree, the first picture has perfectly layer eggs in freshly drawn comb. The bees will draw the comb out as the egg develops. The eggs in the other 2 pictures are placed in the bottom of the cells. Laying workers lay the eggs on the sides of the cell. They do this because their a abdomen's are not long enough to reach the bottom of the cell.
It does look like some have several eggs. This is a sign of a new queen. She will learn to only lay one
egg in each cell. It also looks like there is some mite poopin some of those cells.
Jim

[eltalia]

"I disagree, the first picture has perfectly layer eggs in freshly drawn comb"

... and why one needs to know if it is fully drawn or partially, Jim.
When just 15mm or less LWs would have no difficulty with a copybook lay
whereas struggle with fully drawn in random placements as seen in other
pix. Fresh eggs on larvae is another indicator but yes, a queen on steroids or
 0D'd on hormone could be quilty of such activity.
I'll wait for a fuller picture, on this one :-)

Cheers


Bill

[sc-bee]

... and why one needs to know if it is fully drawn or partially, Jim.
When just 15mm or less LWs would have no difficulty with a copybook lay
whereas struggle with fully drawn in random placements as seen

Cheers


Bill

Dang it hurts me to agree with you  .... but agreed 

Cheers

[FlexMedia.tv]

How old is the queen?

Barhopper,
I have 4 Hives, one is a captured swarm. Those pictures are my package Bee's started this year in May

[FlexMedia.tv]

"I lay out my method below, as in prime time with queens well available
locally it may be worth a shot if the colony has loads of stores beyond the
practical of keeping for next Spring."

Geeze Bill, sounds like a lot of work! Lol!

[FlexMedia.tv]

These are additional pictures from the first picture with the black frames. They are a little difficult to see. This queen was from a package in May. I looked for a queen during the last inspection but I couldn't find one.








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[little john]

I think what would be really useful, would be a photo taken at an angle, such that domed cappings would become more evident - as high-domed worker-cells then become a no-brainer - if this could be done ?

In the last 2 photos there are very clearly a fair number of normal capped worker-cells, so - assuming that those were laid by the same resident queen, and not imported frames - I'd say those earlier multi-egg cells were just a new queen getting used to the hang of things.
LJ

[eltalia]

"I lay out my method below, as in prime time with queens well available
locally it may be worth a shot if the colony has loads of stores beyond the
practical of keeping for next Spring."

Geeze Bill, sounds like a lot of work! Lol!

Sure reads that way, necessary for the detail to illustrate the concept I 'm afraid :-)
The other method mentioned uses a double screened shim between a queenright box
and the LW box. So the shim plus resources required and takes around two weeks, by report.
Michael's method uses resources until the LWs get the message. So uses resources and a
nonquantifiable amount of time after the initial 20days or so.
Mine - not mine really, it was passed to me many moons ago - mine needs kit and a newly
sourced queen with a frame - or two, optional - and is a done deal inside of 10 days tops.

But we are jumping ahead :-)
Seems there are assessments at odds thusfar so, two things?
If it is agreed the lay pattern in those partially drawn cells is perfect then why the anomally
- from the same queen - on the same foundation where it is fully drawn. You cannot upload
pix of every frame so take what has been put so far (by all) and see if you yourself can identify
any set pattern of madness.... or prolific double and triple lays on a number of frames.

With the pix?
It is difficult to easily provide high.def images on this BMA site with that 200KB limit, I know
that much. So for LJ's request - and maybe a selection of what has been uploaded - are you
able to upload elsewhere and post links? That would solve the resolution troubles I am having
and I guess others also.  About all I can suggest beyond what you have done.


Cheers.


Bill

[eltalia]

... and why one needs to know if it is fully drawn or partially, Jim.
When just 15mm or less LWs would have no difficulty with a copybook lay
whereas struggle with fully drawn in random placements as seen

Cheers


Bill

Cheerio...

Bill

Dang it hurts me to agree with you  .... but agreed 

Cheers

... an so cometh the moth to the flame ;-))))

Cheerio...

Bill

[FlexMedia.tv]

I think what would be really useful, would be a photo taken at an angle, such that domed cappings would become more evident - as high-domed worker-cells then become a no-brainer - if this could be done ?

Little John,
I'll try to send better pics. I know it is hard to see but those first pics are two different hives. The black framed one I thought was normal. The last 3 pics are all from that hive and no transfers. That hive is only one brood box and I just decided to add a super even tho all the frames are not drawn yet. I'll post more but all the pics of the black frames come from the same hive...still think it's a new queen trying to figure things out?? :-)

[FlexMedia.tv]

Some more pictures from the black frame hive:


The closest I could show with domed caps. What does that mean again?


Outside frame of this single brood box hive


Same area just closer. Sure wish I knew what these gals are doing!


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[eltalia]

Some more pictures from ...
(edit)

"My one hive is neat with one egg in each cell. The other has different
size larvae, 2-3 eggs in a cell, eggs on top of larvae, etc."

I did read this as you knew what "normal" egg lay looked like. I did not
realise you were putting up pix from two separate colonies.
I see that now.

"Same area just closer. Sure wish I knew what these gals are doing!"

Well, they are not drawing comb, so likely no real growth happening.
If this is the same colony as your first pix I would just leave them bee,
and observe weekly.
The other pix from the other colony..?.. with multlple random lays.
What I put previously stands.. cut your losses.
Sorry for that news but there are many more seasons in front of your
bees.. and they lack a process for forgiveness. They just move on, regardless.

Cheers.

Bill

[FlexMedia.tv]

Bill,
Yup, the last three pics are from the first pics, the black frames, Queen Victoria. (God save her!) her story is she is a package queen started in May of this year. She gave me trouble from the start. I placed her in her box in the hive and checked on her like I was supposed to a few days later and she wasn't released. After a week she still wasn't released and all the helpers in her box died. So I removed the candy cork and let her crawl in. I had an old frame of honey from last year I placed at the farthest corner of the hive. For weeks that's where they gathered. Just there on that one frame and NOWHERE else. I placed a top feeder in the middle and they ate a bit but still gathered on that far frame. I moved that frame to the middle under the feeder. They did better. All of a sudden they started doing good where they are now. It's only one brood box and in sure there were no queen cells. It's doing so well now I added a super. Now, the hive next to it (Queen Angela)that was my first captured swarm was huge now is doing so bad I didn't take pictures of it. If I wasn't brand new at this, I swear the swarm queen left that hive and took over Queen Victoria's hive. Don't even know if that's possible but Queen Victoria is doing so much better and Queen Angela is doing nothing. Anyway, don't y'all just love new keepers?? I'll leave Victoria alone and concentrate on the other from the photos, Queen Nefertiti who is a mess right now. Hey, maybe I should combine Victoria with Angela since I'm sure there is no queen at the Angela hive?

[eltalia]

Leave me time to get back to you, FM.tv.
There is new info in that last post I'll need to digest,
and a busy day in front of me, here.

Cheers.

Bill

[eltalia]

Getting back to you on this FM.tv, I have I think managed to unravel
the dialogue with some help from your website.
I lay out a path forward as a skeleton direction without explanation/justification.
Others might want to go there as I have had to map it all out as a problem
matrix so repeating that here is more work than I am able to do.
As a general comment I really am convinced you do need to revisit
assessments of numbers of bees as "a lot"/"plenty"/"mobs".
One thousand bees in a nucleus is not "plenty" nor indeed a preferable starting
point for any colony in your "zone", twice that number over 3 frames - and no
more - and you miight have half a chance in getting a "hive" going.
Briefly, I am at odds with many of my peers in their statements as to what
constitutes "critical mass". I do not concern myself with that 'problem' as
"each to their own" applies - and I know historically colonys I declare vibrant,
are, and own frames wholly covered in bees where they are not building comb or
storing honey. 
Also I see no problem in having even a few pounds of bees hanging off an entrance
board IF the group waxes and wanes in a single fine day. In fact during full on flows
I would expect to see this in a healthy colony.Yet others believe such events are
triggers for a split to be made. Harmful to Critical Mass in my view.

On with it;
Queen Victoria needs to be restructured to build for wintering. Reduce the structure
back to a single fulldepth box and force them to draw ALL comb.
To do that?
Over a couple of manipulations bring the outside undrawn into the core of
brood frames, stagger the undrawn between fully drawn with brood. Pay no
regard to the state of stores and comb on these transient outside frames, the
bees will move stuff as they draw them out for brood.
Get that done by fall's end to begin wintering with fully drawn - and hopefully
filled -  frames throughout Queen Victoria.

Queen Angela gets dismantled with all stores and bees going to Queen Nefertiti
which gets changed to a single full depth box. Make very sure Angela's queen is
not present or euthanised.
Follow the same process as layed out above for Victoria with maybe a tweak in a
few weeks in adding a medium back on top for wintering. The decision to add that
box is a local judgment call based on the chances of the extra box having time to
get stores into the drawn frames you supply. One suggestion is to not just throw
on the medium but add a few frames with a blocker in place. Add frames as those
in place get worked to capacity. That strategy should prove a faster fill than a box
of all drawn empty frames being thrown on. In all these moves make sure there are
queen restrictors fitted at the entrance, right through to wintering pack down.
Remove them then so any drones/detritus can be thrown out.


Cheers.


Bill

--
(edit content+structure)

[FlexMedia.tv]

Thanks Bill,
I went back up today to make sure Queen Angela is queen-less. I'll post some pictures in a bit but she started out as a captured hive and I bet she left the same way. I have bad old eyes but I use jewelers glasses and I can't find her, just a few caps and larvae. There are only 9 frames in a deep homemade hive. (Maybe that's the problem...don't like my condo I built for them!)only three frames have any activity since July 9th

[FlexMedia.tv]

Frame #2 (#1 is empty)


Cells from #2


Frame #3


Cells from #3


Last frame. Remaining are empty


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[eltalia]

Thanks Bill,
I went back up today to make sure Queen Angela is queen-less. I'll post some pictures in a bit but she started out as a captured hive and I bet she left the same way. I have bad old eyes but I use jewelers glasses and I can't find her, just a few caps and larvae. There are only 9 frames in a deep homemade hive. (Maybe that's the problem...don't like my condo I built for them!)only three frames have any activity since July 9th

They are certainly impressive builds, many others around Europe also.. I guess
here we are just bogans in our approach to "bee condo", as jf they get a sheet
of gal.iron thrown over them they can consider themselves lucky! -- see attached
of an extreme ;-)
Eyes are a problem even at 30+ what with sweat, and tbe reason many
do not wear veils which only compound the problem. Today with macro enabled
digital cameras I can get by with a pair of cheap 3Xmag reading glasses.. I have
lost scores of them. 3 bucks each I am not too bothered.
Looking at pix on the computer then backs what I thought I saw.

Likely telling you a couple of things you gave already worked out for yourself in
that scanning a frame is faster than looking, and more reliable.
Looking for a queen is scanning for the odd one out, look at nothing more and
put the frame down into another box before lifting the next frame.
Scan all frames again in the reverse if not found in the first run.
If not found that way there is none present.

On frames not covered in bees?
I am trying to find the time to complete my treatise on airpaths in hive bodies, stuff
keeps getting in the road - my egg incubator shat itself, fully loaded! - but one
insight to come from it should be a change in the "norm" I have seen displayed in
text and YouToob. In short, where frames are not getting worked, remove them and
place a blocker in their stead, regardless of the time of year - wintering for you guys
being an exception.
There are pix of one rough example in that queen rearing thread I started.

... thanks for the update ;-)

Bill

[eltalia]

Frame #2 (#1 is empty
Cells from #2
Frame #3
Cells from #3
Last frame. Remaining are empty

.
...not LW in those pix, mate... just plain dead on it's feet.
At least they will combine easy, like.
I'd reckon you are going to have to make some tough calls
with Queen Neferiti too... 'cos there isn't much there to donate
to her, hey?
And time is running out up your way.

Cheerio...


Bill

[sc-bee]

Same area just closer. Sure wish I knew what these gals are doing!

What the gals are doing is screaming... I hate this plastic foundation.  Sometimes adding more wax to the foundation is needed. I totally realize there are other issue you are dealing with along with bee population but this caught my eye...

[FlexMedia.tv]

First time I've used the black frames too...

[FlexMedia.tv]

Frame #2 (#1 is empty
Cells from #2
Frame #3
Cells from #3
Last frame. Remaining are empty

I'd reckon you are going to have to make some tough calls
with Queen Neferiti too... 'cos there isn't much there to donate
to her, hey?

Bill

Yeah I'll give it a try even tho there are not many to combine. My beekeeper friends who actually get honey from their hives are giving me some teasing for sure. That's ok. It's not a race. *wink!

[eltalia]

Frame #2 (#1 is empty
Cells from #2
Frame #3
Cells from #3
Last frame. Remaining are empty

I'd reckon you are going to have to make some tough calls
with Queen Neferiti too... 'cos there isn't much there to donate
to her, hey?

Bill

Yeah I'll give it a try even tho there are not many to combine. My beekeeper friends who actually get honey from their hives are giving me some teasing for sure. That's ok. It's not a race. *wink!

Your're dead right there fella ;-))
Poking them along -  "giddyup thar" - tactics just annoy them to the point they give you the
finger and find  somewhere else!
OH,, your friends..?..  I am sure tis just beer time joshin' in knowing it aint them, this time
around : smile:

Bill

[eltalia]

First time I've used the black frames too...

Not having ever used them, nor a fan of plastic foundation - after the first releases of them -
I can only go by observation, colour seems irrelevant. My conclusion is I would not use plastic
in startup projects. And having learnt a new thing very recently all my startups are going to bee
4 frames, two of which are newly built topbar with 19mm strips attached.
In fact just yesterday I built my first camoflaged swarm trap following that principle.
Pix to follow.

Cheers.

Bill

[sc-bee]

Color has absolutely nothing to do with it... Some factors that play into the scenario are: brand of foundation(all are not created equal or waxed equal), population of bees. where you are in a flow.

Some folks hate plastic- some swear by it. I have bought some but not used it yet. Most places I have seen it used... I was not impressed.  I will add another layer of wax before using them. The best plastic foundation out there is said to be Acorn. You can get it heavy waxed (triple dipped) It is a bit pricey but for the guy with many hives in pays off vs adding wax (labor and cost). The next I hear good reports on is Rite Cell (Mann Lake). Some where there are strong flows do not have to add wax. here it helps.

Here is a great sign your plastic probably needs more wax added to it, at least for the time of year in which you added it. Could also be bee space issues but it is also a sign they do not like the plastic. Sometimes, it is just patches and spots on the frame that needed more wax that the bees reject. And when you find this, if you don't make corrections it just gets worse.

[eltalia]

Not at all taking away from your comments SCB - all things the OP should consider in
future configs - plastic will be used by some for their reasons in regard to ease of use,
and, as explained to me, their ease of extraction for product. Those guys do not want
to wire frames, tho' I reckon it should be done anyway with at least one horiziontal 'brace'.
My best analysis on how to use it is to introduce the frames gradually, between full
brood frames, forcing them to draw it - extra dipping or not.
Same could be done for honey supers but there is a risk the bees will pump
up the brood chamber with honey over drawing the plastic to fill those with honey.

That example you are quoting cites poor application of beespace and hive
body air circulation faults. All things being equal the bees will work from centre of frame
out to the extents. Building in tbe fashion they have is a sign of stress.
I would encourage the OP - or any other reading new player -  to take note of all these
things (cited) as good example in avoiding plastic in startups.

I have a set regime for startups, if it works then repeat it being the thought. I am changing
that now - as a trial - only because after many years I learnt someting new, right here in
this forum. I could only wish those devotees of plastic might also have that same forum
experience.


Cheers.

Bill

[sc-bee]

I agree you can sometimes force them to start by placing them between drawn frames. But it is best to add that wax or buy the acorn if in doubt. When newbies around here start, the suppliers seem to throw plastic at them. And so do the shop houses with kits... Mann Lake, Brushy etc. Also you now can go kits from tractor supply.. costco etc. Some of these kits are made by big suppliers some not. Some of the plastic foundation in these kits are trash. I helped several newbees on plastic this year and without the added wax in my area it was a total crap shoot. But no matter how many post on our local forum that I told folks to add wax to the foundation it did not happen... not until the frames remain with the packages for weeks with trash comb (wonky and burred) and blank spaces (bare foundation). For every one newbee I see it work for I see at least two where it does not... I wish supplier would not give them plastic in starters kits. Including our local supplier guys...

And as far as placing them between brood frames--- well a lot of folks are going plastic for honey supers. In my area you best have a good flow on, if not you are just pissing in the fan...

I understand the ease, quickness,durability, time savings etc of plastic. And to boot look at the price of plastic vs wax... the plastic is often cheaper... at least here in the U.S. On a side note when you receive that box form the hot UPS truck or store that plastic foundation in a hot summer shed in a shed .. what are those greasy splotches on the foundation boxes when you retrieve them... It is a portion of the wax that was on your frames 

"That example you are quoting cites poor application of beespace and hive body air circulation faults"
And I agree- I often see the above cited pic when the bees don't like or draw the plastic frame next door which causes a bee space issue... Instead they skip the frame next door and pile in this mess.

I dislike plastic but want to make it work due to the ease of use and most of all the durability vs wax...the bees may not agree with me... guess I will see...

[cao]

without the added wax in my area it was a total crap shoot.

That is what I have found too.

I do like plastic when it works.  But it can be more work when things go wrong.  I had a hive that died and wax moths got to it before I did.  The frames with wax foundation just went into the solar wax melter.  The frames with plastic had to be scraped and pressure washed to get cleaned up.

[eltalia]

without the added wax in my area it was a total crap shoot.

That is what I have found too.

I do like plastic when it works.  But it can be more work when things go wrong.  I had a hive that died and wax moths got to it before I did.  The frames with wax foundation just went into the solar wax melter.  The frames with plastic had to be scraped and pressure washed to get cleaned up.

....an' the proponents/pushers of plastic will tell you this an advantage of plastic. Beats me :-/
As SCB says... where suppliers/experts are pushing the stuff onto the unsuspecting innocents
the failures are just not going to go away. I know when I first tried Plasticore [tm] I thought it
was the ducks nutz until the second season when I found colonies actually stripping away
comb off'n it. Mine was all wired in as it was migratory, and a big radial extractor being used, so
when I found frame after frame not filled completely in by the second season and around the
wires often left bare, like canyons in the comb, I tossed the lot.
Never promoted the stuff since.
It has it's place in a hobby market but be careful how it is introduced, I reckon.

Maybe we should start a Movement!  : chuckles:


Cheers.

Bill

[FlexMedia.tv]

You know...I just realized what plastic you folks were taking about, those black inserts. Ya, plastic. No wonder they don't like them. Just looked again today and they gave me the "middle winger" (If ya know what I mean!)

[tycrnp]

You know...I just realized what plastic you folks were taking about, those black inserts. Ya, plastic. No wonder they don't like them. Just looked again today and they gave me the "middle winger" (If ya know what I mean!)

LOL!!!!