Foundation less frames

[S Keeney]

Bees were building nice comb. Couldn't get back to bees for 2 weeks and when I did they had made a mess of it. Seems risky to try and fix it this late in season  does anyone have any advice

[paus]

ITS NOT GOING TO GET ANY BETTER.  I had this two weeks due to the hives getting heavier and the hive stand boards bending due to the weight. This caused the hive to lean.  They built from top of frame 1 to the bottom of frame 2. This was in a hive that did not have skewers or starter strips, which are usually thin strips of scrape wood, glued in the top grooves.  I believe the bees have a tendency to follow the skewers if things are not to much out of kilter.  The best time to fix this has past the next best time is ASAP.

[GSF]

You're danged if you do and danged if you don't.

[S Keeney]

Just worried that if they went queen less right now would they still have time to get queen right

[eltalia]

Just worried that if they went queen less right now would they still have time to get queen right

.... right there is a second reason to do nothing at this point in time.
If you do not own the confidence/technique to clear wonky comb then yes, you
may well inadvertently injure or kill that queen.
The prime reason however is your window for working with frames has closed.
Start now asking bees to fix comb and you risk burning up stores they should be
sitting on for the dearth (winter). Sure, you could get lucky and have a late flow
of significance, you would know local conditions in weighing that chance up.

Leave them bee, and spend _your_ energy making a replacement box ready so
prior to the first flow of Spring 2018 you can swap the wonky comb box out for
rebuild by that colony or another.

Cheers.

Bill

--
edit fr'n typo - did I say I hatez this interface...grrrrr..grr

[paus]

I do not know your conditions but my best advice now Is weigh every factor and make your own judgement.  I am not crawfishing because the quicker a "broke" is fixed the better but as in all things every factor should be given its proper weight as you weigh you options.

[BeeMaster2]

Keeny,
If the hive is full of comb, what would you gain by tearing it apart now? If they only had half of the super filled, fixing it now would be the way to go. At this point, as far north as you are, I would not touch them. You have a lot more to lose than gain. There is no reason to be inspecting them now. In the spring, you can do everything that you can do now and the bees have a much better chance recovering than they do now.
Jim

[tjc1]

I'm curious about just what kind of 'mess' they made - can you describe exactly the situation? I agree with the 'leave it till spring' voices ingeneral, but without knowing the particulars it's hard to give advice.

[S Keeney]

The bees drew out 6 frames halfway  at this point it looked perfect . But instead of finishing the rest of the frames straight they started going at 45 degree angle to the frames, and even built a row of comb completely perpendicular to the frames  at opposite end of box. I wonder if the two different types of starter strip came into play here as some of the frames were the wedge type in which I just turned wedge other way and nailed in and other frames were the ones made for plastic foundation   On those I glued in pop stick into groove at top.                   I was leaning toward letting them bee till spring   Seems like safest option   By the way this is my first time on a forum , really diggin it , thanks

[little john]

I can't imagine how starter strip differences could have caused that snafu - as the 'mess' started part way down the comb, long after the starter strip would have exerted any influence. What you describe is unusual - but not unheard of.

Take some consolation from knowing that those combs are only a 'mess' from a beekeeper's point-of-view.  From the bees' point-of-view, they're absolutely perfect - that's why they drew them like that !

I very much agree with the others - leave 'em be for now, there's time enough to sort things out military-style come the spring ...
LJ

[gww]

My bees made strait frames and at the end of the frame went compleely across a couple of frames.  What I did was cut the two combs going across the frames and let them fall to the top bars of the brood box that was below the box I was working on.  I then smashed the frames while I put them back into the box into that comb on the top bars untill the frames were seated properly.  I got back into the hives today (5 days later and see no ill effects of what I did and lucky for me so far the bees have not rebuilt the cross comb.  I find at this time of the year on the boxes that I have moved frames up in as ladder/guides, that the bees will build fat and all other kind of funny things rather then start a new frame.  I looked in one today and it is a double frame thick where the bees made a couple of ears or wings and then just attached them all to one giant thick comb.  I will crush that before the year is out and take my quart and a half of honey and if I can cut it in a way that saves one frame I will but if not I will take it all.  Over all, I don't have too many problims but when the flow is not strong but you still have to add room to a hive cause of crowding, the bees do funny things.

I have a couple of other hives and so even though I am starved for drawn comb, I can just get by with moving stuff around if I have to destroy a comb or two.  I do think that it added a little work to the bees but that dropping the stuff I cut off last week onto the top bars, kept most of the resources of the bees work in the hive for them to use and it has not seemed to make anything worse when I looked this week.
Good luck
gww

Ps I am new enough that I more just tell you what I have done and what I seemed to see by doing it more then I want to tell you that it is the right thing to do.  It seems to have been the right thing for me to do but there are a lot smarter people to give advice then me.

[S Keeney]

I'm not sure if diagonal comb emanated from partially drawn frames or adjacent empty frames. Curious to see if starter strips had a role will check next time I'm there. I love all my bees but this hive is from the first swarm I ever caught   And the swarm came from first hive I got.  Which has since died out.  (Got robbed out and then beetles and wax moths finished the job). My only consolation was knowing I still had the swarm it cast off ). So more than likely gonna follow my gut on this one and leave em alone til Spring    Nice to know other people share this view though. Any tips on foundation less   Beekeeping would be appreciated   Better safe than sorry on this one

[BeeMaster2]

Keeney,
I have found that melting some wax and painting the strip with the wax really helps tell the bees where to build comb.
Jim

[Eric Bosworth]

Keeney,
I have found that melting some wax and painting the strip with the wax really helps tell the bees where to build comb.
Jim

If you just take a block of wax and rub it along the comb guide you will have the same effect but use a whole lot less wax.

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[BeeMaster2]

I have tried both ways and I think the bees do much better with fresh melted wax. That is why I recommend painting melted wax on the wood strip.
Jim

[Eric Bosworth]

I have tried both ways and I think the bees do much better with fresh melted wax. That is why I recommend painting melted wax on the wood strip.
Jim

I don't notice much difference. Perhaps I just wait to long before using the frames after waxing them. I have played around with different comb guides. I have found that 2 passes with a cove bit leaving about 1/8" in the center or just a square 1/8" wide 1/4 or 3/8 inch deep comb guide works better than a 90 degree V unfortunately that requires 2 passes instead of 1. I haven't found a tongue and groove bit that has a narrow enough tongue.

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[little john]

I once made a couple of dozen 'V' top bars from gluing some 45 degree section moulding underneath flat top bars. Unfortunately the 45 degree moulding was hardwood and highly polished, such that the bees couldn't get a grip onto the narrow lower edge, and so whenever a string of bees built-up there, hanging down underneath - they just kept falling off in a clump.  Painting both sides of the 'V' with molten wax to give them a better initial grip solved that problem.

I've never used 'V' section starters since, and simply use popsicle sticks or tongue depressors glued into the grooves of commercially-made frames.  Although I keep meaning to use a table saw blade to make grooves in my 'home-made - not to be sold' frame top bars, in practice I keep using a hand-held angle-grinder fitted with a thin zip-disk to cut those grooves. A crude method, but one that works.
LJ

[gww]

Every frame in every hive that I have is just a top bar with a 45 degree angle cut on the table saw.  I had not wax and so put them in dry.  I have been latily rubbing a ball of wax on the point of the V but have only did this with the last unused frames and so I have no report on how that works.  I do have a couple hundred drawn frames with just the V dry though.
Cheers
gww

[eltalia]

LJ wrote in part:
" A crude method, but one that works."

....heh, has to bee beehaviour as there is exactly what I ended with after swearing at the results
of other methods more inline with carpentry - did I say I hateth working with wood!?
Where the groove got overly "wonky" I backpacked with tissue paper before adding the Superglue[tm]
used to hold the 20mm strips in place. For those bars I intend to use as brood comb and brood honey stores
I added a couple of 2.5mm holes and stuck schkiskobab (sp?) skewers in those, two to a frame 150mm
apart.
The bees take to these like mudwasps to a louvre blade!

Cheers.

Bil

[Eric Bosworth]

I once made a couple of dozen 'V' top bars from gluing some 45 degree section moulding underneath flat top bars. Unfortunately the 45 degree moulding was hardwood and highly polished, such that the bees couldn't get a grip onto the narrow lower edge, and so whenever a string of bees built-up there, hanging down underneath - they just kept falling off in a clump.  Painting both sides of the 'V' with molten wax to give them a better initial grip solved that problem.

I've never used 'V' section starters since, and simply use popsicle sticks or tongue depressors glued into the grooves of commercially-made frames.  Although I keep meaning to use a table saw blade to make grooves in my 'home-made - not to be sold' frame top bars, in practice I keep using a hand-held angle-grinder fitted with a thin zip-disk to cut those grooves. A crude method, but one that works.
LJ

Ok looking at this I was wrong
https://www.toolstoday.com/p-5898-2-piece-edge-banding-bit-sets.aspx?&variantids=9854,0&keywords=55468
The bits on the left hand side are the ones I used so I guess it was a 30 degree V rather than a 90 degree.  I still like 2 passes with the cove bit leaving about 1/8" center comb guide. I wish I could find a double cove bit with an 3/32" bearing in the middle.

[Michael Bush]

I used to dip the bevel in wax but on hot days it would fall off and then the bees would make a mess out of it.  Also sometimes a new heavy comb would come off because the wax that was dipped is not anchored nearly as well as the bees anchor it.  I quit waxing them more than a decade ago.

[Eric Bosworth]

I used to dip the bevel in wax but on hot days it would fall off and then the bees would make a mess out of it.  Also sometimes a new heavy comb would come off because the wax that was dipped is not anchored nearly as well as the bees anchor it.  I quit waxing them more than a decade ago.

Have you played around with different types of comb guides? If so what are your experiences?

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[gww]

Eric
I am not michael but look here.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
Reading this is why I just bevel my top bars on my frames.  I have not regretted it yet.
Cheers
gww

[paus]

This is the first year I have used this on all my new frames.  I drill two holes in the bottom frame about 6 inches from end of frame, yes I made a jig to get the skewers equally spaced and drill three bottom bars at a time. I build the frames in a jig and put skewers through the holes, and drive them into the top bar, as per Little John,s picture. Then I use pieces of scrape cut to the groove width( not critical) and glue them between the skewers, which have been driven into the top bar. Then  a "Little dab will do you."  of glue at bottom and top, cut the excess length skewers with heavy wire cutters and you have a stronger frame and the bees have a guide that they use very quickly. I have used the cut off skewers in the ends of a few frames to see if there is any benefit, they extend only about two inches into the frame, this remains to be seen. When I first did this I melted wax and brushed on the starter strip. Then I read that Michael Bush does not use any wax because he has had the dipped wax give away in hot weather, I have seen new comb fall off a frame but do not know if it was brushed or not.  The rest of this has proven to work for me.I  should have added the strips are cut to the size of popsicle sticks.

[Michael Bush]

>Have you played around with different types of comb guides? If so what are your experiences?

I've played around with them all.  My first one, back in 1974, was a 12 degree angle.  It was not the worst I've seen but it was not as good as I liked.  I've done all the way up to 60 degrees or so.  I like the 60 degree a lot, but I can't say it's that much better than a 45 degree.  Wood strips worked fine.  Wax strips worked fine but sometimes fell out in the heat.  A turned wedge worked fine.  A bead of wax in a groove can work with some bees, but it's not very reliable with other bees.  Some bees will just ignore it all together.  I pretty much settled on a 45 degree on each side (Making the point a 90 degree).  This is easy to cut on a table saw and works about as well as anything steeper works.  I like it to stick out at least 1/4" but not too much.  1/2"  for a strip is about the maximum I would want.  3/4" would work, but is more than I need.  A 3/4" x 3/4" x 1" chamfer molding works fine.

[Eric Bosworth]

>Have you played around with different types of comb guides? If so what are your experiences?

I've played around with them all.  My first one, back in 1974, was a 12 degree angle.  It was not the worst I've seen but it was not as good as I liked.  I've done all the way up to 60 degrees or so.  I like the 60 degree a lot, but I can't say it's that much better than a 45 degree.  Wood strips worked fine.  Wax strips worked fine but sometimes fell out in the heat.  A turned wedge worked fine.  A bead of wax in a groove can work with some bees, but it's not very reliable with other bees.  Some bees will just ignore it all together.  I pretty much settled on a 45 degree on each side (Making the point a 90 degree).  This is easy to cut on a table saw and works about as well as anything steeper works.  I like it to stick out at least 1/4" but not too much.  1/2"  for a strip is about the maximum I would want.  3/4" would work, but is more than I need.  A 3/4" x 3/4" x 1" chamfer molding works fine.

I completely agree with the 1/4" protruding guide. I just have had them start to curve comb on the ends with bevel from the router bit. They seem to keep it straight with the cove bit. It does make it quick making them. I plane 1" rough cut to 7/8" then zip it through the router, cut it off on the table saw and then zip it through the router again and so on until I run out of wood. Making medium boxes if I start with 10" wide boards I can get most of my top bars out of what is left from ripping for the sides.

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[johnwratcliff]

Deal with it in the spring no sense in messing up things when resources are scarce