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Author Topic: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now  (Read 1697 times)

Offline gww

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #80 on: August 06, 2017, 04:58:43 pm »
eric
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Kathy I think the bottom line is that acebird does not understand economics.
Or, you think your understanding economics is better?  It is also economics if health care could be had for $3000 per person compared to the $5000 per person, no matter how you cut it.  There is a big picture economics and also personal economics.  For me the personal is most important lots of times, expesially if I also think it would give people more freedom to tackle new projects with out the fear of leaving where they have insurance.
Cheers
gww
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 06:10:33 pm by gww »

Offline kathyp

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #81 on: August 06, 2017, 05:05:08 pm »
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For me the personal is most important lots of times, expesially if I also think it would give people more freedom to tackle new projects with out the fear of leaving where they have insurance.
Cheers

This is one of the big problems with the way we do coverage now.  That's why HSAs rather than policies would give people choice.  If you have an HSA and can use it for medical in any way you wish, including buying insurance, you can get what you want where you want.  This would be even more true if there were not the inner-state controls that keep people from buying across state lines.  Both of these things could be introduced by congress along with getting rid of the ACA mandates. 
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline gww

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2017, 06:14:47 pm »
Kathy
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This would be even more true if there were not the inner-state controls that keep people from buying across state lines.
 

Is it federal that allows each state to contol what is in thier state?  I know the states can regulate what an insurance company does in their state but is it a federal thing that stops all insurance from being able to be sold every where?
I ask cause I don't know.
Cheers
gww

Offline kathyp

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #83 on: August 06, 2017, 09:06:51 pm »
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Is it federal that allows each state to contol what is in thier state?

It's one place the feds have chosen not the interfere with states rights.  ACA has federal mandates that must be covered by whatever insurance is sold in each state, but that's new. 

Before ACA, each state set its own insurance policy.  This limited what could be sold in each state and you could not buy a policy that didn't meet the mandates.  ACA made this worse as it further limited choices and then insurance companies started pulling out of the ACA marketplace because of the cost of the mandates.  Some states have mandates for policies that go even beyond ACA.  California makes insurance companies include abortions in their coverage as an example. 

While I am usually in favor of protecting states rights, in this case the rules are stupid.  It's the one place Congress could use the interstate commerce laws and force states to allow people to buy whatever they want, from anyone as we do with car insurance.   They have chosen not to do this.  States want to control what is sold in their states at the expense of the people.  This is another place where more choice = more competition = lower prices. 
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #84 on: August 06, 2017, 09:07:28 pm »
Kathy
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This would be even more true if there were not the inner-state controls that keep people from buying across state lines.
 

Is it federal that allows each state to contol what is in thier state?  I know the states can regulate what an insurance company does in their state but is it a federal thing that stops all insurance from being able to be sold every where?
I ask cause I don't know.
Cheers
gww
The inter state commerce clause was originally to keep commerce regular between the states. Now it is just an excuse for congress to regulate anything. I don't honestly know if it is a state or federal regulation preventing sales of insurance across state lines but congress certainly can do something about it.

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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #85 on: August 06, 2017, 09:23:58 pm »


Or, you think your understanding economics is better?  It is also economics if health care could be had for $3000 per person compared to the $5000 per person, no matter how you cut it.  There is a big picture economics and also personal economics.  For me the personal is most important lots of times, expesially if I also think it would give people more freedom to tackle new projects with out the fear of leaving where they have insurance.
Cheers
gww
That is a great example of "that which is seen and that which is not seen". You are not allowed to see the whole picture. You only see the way it is now. You don't see what it could be with no government involvement and true free markets exist. It is a slightly different application of the concept behind broken window fallacy.

http://www.learnliberty.org/videos/the-broken-window-fallacy/
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline gww

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #86 on: August 06, 2017, 10:35:28 pm »
eric
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That is a great example of "that which is seen and that which is not seen". You are not allowed to see the whole picture. You only see the way it is now. You don't see what it could be with no government involvement and true free markets exist. It is a slightly different application of the concept behind broken window fallacy

I have to dissagree with this analogy.  You are saying we wouldn't know if it was left alone but the truth of the matter is that most of the government involvement was because there were problims before that involvement.  They were trying to fix problims that no happening before they got involved.  This is not to take a position on how good they were at fixing said problims but more that it has been seen not to work before they got involve which is why they got involved.  The only broken window is to forget the before they got involved part.

Kathy
Thanks for the answer.  I thought you were refering to the "it being a states right thing"
 that was messed up but was not sure.  I had to move for 4 years to a differrent state to get to my retirement.  I bought another house while there and tried to insure it with my other house insurrer and my agent said I couldn't.  I ended up insuring with the same company but a differrent local agent.  Since I had a residence in both states, I left the car insurance as it was even when I was fourced to lisence two of them in the other state.  I am sure I took a risk in doing this but figured I was also paying premiums and would at least have arguement if something happened based on the ideal that they shouldn't have taken my money.  Luckily I did not get in a situation to have to test this.
Cheers
gww

Offline Acebird

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #87 on: August 07, 2017, 09:15:54 am »
Kathy I think the bottom line is that acebird does not understand economics.

I think both you and Kathy don't understand.  Simple economics is too simple to solve health care issues.  There is no such thing as no government involvement and true free markets.  If there was true free markets then banks and insurance companies would be allowed to fail, hence they are both subsidized.  True free markets leaves out the where with all of a large portion of the US or any country for that matter.  And the bottom line is true free markets are never going to happen in this country.
Basic health care is something that a wealthy country like the US should have for all its citizens.  It is no different than not letting people starve in your own country when you provide food for a large part of the world.
So far all I have heard from those that are against single payer is that some people will work the system.  Yes, they will and they have.  Knowing this it seems ridiculous to me that we can't be smart enough to prevent the abuse from happening and also prosecute those that are doing it now.  This just blows my mind that we are that stupid and unmotivated not to do this for all government policies.
Kathy, lasik type surgery is elective.  You should pay what ever it cost to get it.  Why should anyone else be supporting you to make an elective choice?  I would also like you to explain why I have to pay 600-900 for a pair of glasses so I can see when you can go to any Walmart or other retailer and get a pair of readers for 20 dollars.  Each has a plastic frame and plastic lenses.  You are not going to convince me that a profit based healthcare system will give me more choice at a lower cost or that there will ever be a free market system connected to health care.
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Offline bwallace23350

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #88 on: August 07, 2017, 10:49:38 am »

And what makes you think they are smart enough to do it right?

They don't have to be smart enough and I prefer they don't design the plan.  What they need to do is decide on what direction to go in and then assemble a team of experts to figure out the best way of doing it and staying completely out of that decision making.  Then the plan gets executed for four years.  By the time the four years are up the congress can vote on assembling a new team to change it but not on what to change.  The new team would decide that.  The teams should not be affiliated with any government or political position.  No picking their buddies.
You don't think that 323,000,000 Americans have more total knowledge and experience than the "team" Congress can create?

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Not trying to be mean to the American people but yes I do believe that a few experts have a lot more total knowledge about this than the American People. Most people don't even know the policies they are voting for much less anything in real detail.

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #89 on: August 07, 2017, 12:34:34 pm »
I think both you and Kathy don't understand.  Simple economics is too simple to solve health care issues.  There is no such thing as no government involvement and true free markets.  If there was true free markets then banks and insurance companies would be allowed to fail, hence they are both subsidized. 
I don't disagree with you that free markets don't exist. But they should and banks and insurance companies SHOULD be allowed to fail.

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True free markets leaves out the where with all of a large portion of the US or any country for that matter.  And the bottom line is true free markets are never going to happen in this country.
Through out the history of the world no economic system has brought more people out of poverty than free markets. It is a fact that many people don't want to admit but it is true.
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Basic health care is something that a wealthy country like the US should have for all its citizens.  It is no different than not letting people starve in your own country when you provide food for a large part of the world.

How do you define basic? Broken arm? Broken Leg? There are even degrees of broken arms and legs, hairline fractures, stress fractures, compound fractures. What is basic?

Quote
So far all I have heard from those that are against single payer is that some people will work the system.  Yes, they will and they have.  Knowing this it seems ridiculous to me that we can't be smart enough to prevent the abuse from happening and also prosecute those that are doing it now.  This just blows my mind that we are that stupid and unmotivated not to do this for all government policies.

Government and and stupidity go together. If we can't stop the fraud abuse now how do you think we will be doing it by making everything more complex? Burt Rutan said "You can never make something cheaper by making it more complex... you can always add complexity if the simple solution does not work but it will always be more expensive to start with the more complex solution." He was correct. He also said back when his brother was the first pilot to fly non-stop without refueling around the world how great it was that he only needed to file 2 papers with the FAA. I am not certain of what is required now but I guarantee it isn't any less paperwork.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2017, 12:39:06 pm »
Not trying to be mean to the American people but yes I do believe that a few experts have a lot more total knowledge about this than the American People. Most people don't even know the policies they are voting for much less anything in real detail.
In most cases it was a choice to be ignorant. My wife's uncle has down syndrome. In his case he is a 5 year old living in a 50 something year old body. If the majority of people took the time to become informed then that would not be the case and it is not the fault of the rest of us that some people choose to be ignorant.

It all goes back to choices. With freedom comes responsibility. Unfortunately nobody wants to take responsibility for themselves and the government gives them a way to be irresponsible.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline kathyp

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #91 on: August 07, 2017, 04:46:35 pm »
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You are saying we wouldn't know if it was left alone but the truth of the matter is that most of the government involvement was because there were problims before that involvement.

There is an expectation of perfection.  It won't happen in a free market and it won't happen for sure in a government run system.  We have come to the point that when we see imperfection in anything, we look to the government to solve it.  How has that worked?  We have crony capitalism and the heart of that is government regulations.  We have spent trillions on poverty solutions and the poverty rate has remained the same since the programs started.  Government provided education has given us illiterate children. Government run student loans have given us more student debt and increasing school costs.   And, government mandated insurance has given us ACA.

Free market solutions work because they can adapt quickly.  They must or they fail.  Will everyone do well in a free market society?  No, but everyone does not do well now.  More people have more opportunity if they have choices.  It then is up to them to take advantage of those opportunities....some will not.   
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #92 on: August 07, 2017, 05:30:38 pm »




There is an expectation of perfection.
Ahh doesn't the preamble say something about "in order to for a MORE perfect union"? Perfection does not exist... Our founders knew that...
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It won't happen in a free market and it won't happen for sure in a government run system.  We have come to the point that when we see imperfection in anything, we look to the government to solve it.  How has that worked?  We have crony capitalism and the heart of that is government regulations.  We have spent trillions on poverty solutions and the poverty rate has remained the same since the programs started.  Government provided education has given us illiterate children. Government run student loans have given us more student debt and increasing school costs.   And, government mandated insurance has given us ACA.

Free market solutions work because they can adapt quickly.  They must or they fail.  Will everyone do well in a free market society?  No, but everyone does not do well now.  More people have more opportunity if they have choices.  It then is up to them to take advantage of those opportunities....some will not.
Yup... That about sums it up...


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All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Acebird

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #93 on: August 07, 2017, 09:46:40 pm »
I think you both live in a make believe world.  Neither one of you have worked for corporate america.  If you did you would understand why government is so inefficient.  Government mimics corporate america.  There is no such thing as a free market system and there never has been.
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Offline herbhome

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #94 on: August 07, 2017, 10:36:52 pm »
Can't get government out of the market when the market can buy the government it wants.
Neill

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #95 on: August 08, 2017, 12:23:12 am »
I think you both live in a make believe world.  Neither one of you have worked for corporate america.  If you did you would understand why government is so inefficient.  Government mimics corporate america.  There is no such thing as a free market system and there never has been.
Is Lockheed Martin corporate America? I worked there. How about Inacom? I worked there to. Inacom went from fortune 500 to bankrupt in 6 months. The highlight of my career when I was fired by recorded phone message. There has been a free market system... Unless you were alive before Teddy Roosevelt you would not remember. Chances are you are not old enough to remember.

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All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #96 on: August 08, 2017, 12:24:37 am »
Can't get government out of the market when the market can buy the government it wants.
Can't argue with that. But the market should not be able to buy the government.

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All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline kathyp

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #97 on: August 08, 2017, 01:51:14 am »
And the market would have no reason to except for regulations and taxes.
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline gww

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #98 on: August 08, 2017, 09:37:00 am »
Kathy
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And the market would have no reason to except for regulations and taxes.

However, if a private company wants to build a nuclear power plant and we know that waste from that has to be stored for thousands of years and transfered to such storage, it could be said that regulation is a cost of the free market and not a bad thing.

Just one example.
Cheers
gww

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #99 on: August 08, 2017, 09:53:17 am »
Kathy
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And the market would have no reason to except for regulations and taxes.

However, if a private company wants to build a nuclear power plant and we know that waste from that has to be stored for thousands of years and transfered to such storage, it could be said that regulation is a cost of the free market and not a bad thing.

Just one example.
Cheers
gww

I would argue that nuclear power is a major threat to national security. During production yes Nuclear power is very clean... but what do you do with the waste? all we need is some crazy person to get it and we have a major problem. Certainly there are a few industries that need some oversight. But the federal government does not need to be involved with everything in peoples daily lives.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin