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Author Topic: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now  (Read 1928 times)

Offline Acebird

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2017, 08:37:51 am »
What ever happened to limiting the Congress to the 18 enumerated powers of Article I Section 8? It's been a little while since I read it but I don't recall healthcare being mentioned in Article I Section 8.

The United States has always been the leader in world powers and gets involved in the policing of human atrocities around the globe.  Maybe Article I Section 8 is the reason the US is so far behind the rest of the world when it comes to it's citizens healthcare.  Most common folks can see things that are good about ACA and some things that are bad about the ACA.  About 1/2 of our representation in Congress spent 6 months trying to get rid of the ACA with no replacement.  Luckily a few Republicans knew this would be a disaster to the american people and stopped it.  So 6 months and a boat load of taxpayer money has been wasted so far.
The largest complaint about the swamp is that there is no working together for the common good and the problem is getting worse not better.  Essentially that means the cost of government has doubled because only one half is working at any given time.
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2017, 09:24:51 am »
Acebird I think there is another problem that you are not recognizing. Most of the problems we have were caused by government. I would be hard pressed to find something that the government does well. So I don't disagree that 6 months and a boat load of tax dollars have been wasted but I would argue that ever since Obamacare was passed to beginwith we have been burning tax dollars. What's the difference? Healthcare is not a function of government. The government's purpose is to protect individual liberties. Stealing money through tax dollars to use them for any purpose other than protecting individual liberties is wrong. Health care is not a right. As soon as it becomes a right then no expense can be spared for even the most terminal of terminal patients and that will bankrupt any system.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2017, 10:46:00 am »
I agree with most of what Eric is saying.  The majority of the healthcare "crisis" has been cause by government.
But I do disagree about healthcare being a right.  Certainly healthcare is a right, just as expressing your opinion is a right.  No one is going to try to stop you from walking into a doctor's office for treatment of an ailment.  No one is going to try to stop you from waling into a store and buying groceries.  Where the problem comes is when we are forced by a bullying government to pay for someone else's healthcare, then it becomes slavery.

I can think of no other 'right' that forces us to pay for another's expenses.  If you have the right to take my hard-earned money to pay for your elective surgery and optional medications, then I have the right to force you to pay for my new AR15 under the second amendment, and you must also pay my expenses to go to Washington to protest under the First amendment.
Winter is coming.

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Online iddee

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2017, 11:02:09 am »
X2
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2017, 01:25:35 pm »
Hops, you sound like Howard Roark.  Bravo.

Forcing me to buy any product that benefits another is enslavement.  Giving low wage earners a refund on income tax greater than the amount they have paid into the system is another way on enslaving everyone who pays taxes into the system is another example.

I've always had difficulty with property tax exemptions for churches, since it seems to me that it forces me to pay money into the pot to run local government and schools based on my property ownership, while giving churches a free ride.  Let's see what kind of reaction that brings.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2017, 02:16:43 pm »
I agree with most of what Eric is saying.  The majority of the healthcare "crisis" has been cause by government.
But I do disagree about healthcare being a right.  Certainly healthcare is a right, just as expressing your opinion is a right.  No one is going to try to stop you from walking into a doctor's office for treatment of an ailment.  No one is going to try to stop you from waling into a store and buying groceries.  Where the problem comes is when we are forced by a bullying government to pay for someone else's healthcare, then it becomes slavery.

I can think of no other 'right' that forces us to pay for another's expenses.  If you have the right to take my hard-earned money to pay for your elective surgery and optional medications, then I have the right to force you to pay for my new AR15 under the second amendment, and you must also pay my expenses to go to Washington to protest under the First amendment.
Hops, you are 100% correct! The problem is the distinction between the right to buy health care services and the right to receive them. You only have the right to receive healthcare services if you pay for them. You don't have the right to receive health care services if you don't pay for services. That is the sticking point. Way to many people think that they should have the right to receive healthcare services without paying for them. That is not how it works. Like you said "I can think of no other 'right' that forces us to pay for another's expenses." I can't either. Therefore... healthcare is not a right.

My wife had thyroid cancer. You should not have to pay to remove her thyroid or for her thyroid medication. You haven't... She had and still has insurance (we got married so I could get health insurance... It was well tested.) The thing is that charity can pay for people in need if it is given the chance. I don't donate much to charity anymore because I pay so much in taxes and the government does what charity should do. The problem is that charity could do it better and cheaper.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Acebird

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2017, 02:21:53 pm »
As soon as it becomes a right then no expense can be spared for even the most terminal of terminal patients and that will bankrupt any system.

A lot to cover here, I will take each post separately.  Long before the ACA, what you have said was/is already a huge problem.  It is covered by Medicare and Medicaid.  Almost every old person ends up in a nursing home.  The private providers cash in on people who are basically dead but they can keep the heart pumping to continue to collect.  The old people are bankrupting the system because there are too many of us and many get to the point that they don't have enough mental capacity to say enough is enough and pull the plug.  These are some of the serious problems the country will be facing in the near future.  So what is the point of wasting 6 months.  I think government does have a responsibility in health care because government is the only thing that can give common citizens a fare shake when that common citizen is up against Corporate America.
The problem existed before and it still exist.  So it should be addressed.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2017, 02:28:38 pm »
Where the problem comes is when we are forced by a bullying government to pay for someone else's healthcare, then it becomes slavery.
We are forced by a bullying corporation to pay high premiums or die.  Yet you want governments help don't you?
Quote
I can think of no other 'right' that forces us to pay for another's expenses.

Have you ever been in a court of law?  Who pays the cost of our judicial system?  You are aware you have a right to a fair trial...
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Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2017, 03:17:18 pm »
Where the problem comes is when we are forced by a bullying government to pay for someone else's healthcare, then it becomes slavery.
We are forced by a bullying corporation to pay high premiums or die.  Yet you want governments help don't you?

NO, I do not want the government's help.  My premiums, copays and prescriptions were far, far lower a few years ago before the government began to "help".

Quote
I can think
 of no other 'right' that forces us to pay for another's expenses.


Have you ever been in a court of law?  Who pays the cost of our judicial system?  You are aware you have a right to a fair trial...
[/quote]
As a nation of laws, it is right and proper that the people pay the government's expense of enforcing the law. That is what a portion of our taxes is for, and enumerated within the constitution..  It is also right and proper that those who break the law pay for their own legal expenses, just as we have been, up until now, to be responsible for our own medical expenses.  Those who are unable to pay their own, as indigents, the law also assists them.  But that is in no way comparable to the slavery of ACA.
Winter is coming.

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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2017, 04:38:55 pm »

Quote

Have you ever been in a court of law?  Who pays the cost of our judicial system?  You are aware you have a right to a fair trial...
[/quote]

Speaking as a former prosecutor, I'd have to observe that the public defenders I encountered (many years ago) were a mixed bag.  Some were unskilled, lazy and sloppy, just as some defense lawyers paid for by defendants themselves.  Others were very skilled and a few were even brilliant.  Public defenders are paid by the government, as are the prosecutors, who also run the gamut of skills and dedication, but public defenders have gotten a bad reputation among defendants and the public at large for some reason.  This bias even shows up occasionally in television shows. 

As for the cost of courts of law, there is some effort in civil cases to have litigants bear the financial burden, though I can't say what percentage of the cost of running the legal system might actually be borne by the parties in civil litigation.  It would be a good question to put before the people who have answers to such things.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Online kathyp

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2017, 05:18:49 pm »
Quote
I've always had difficulty with property tax exemptions for churches, since it seems to me that it forces me to pay money into the pot to run local government and schools based on my property ownership, while giving churches a free ride.

I get this, as I get the same argument against tax breaks for all non-profits.  On the other hand, when I drop into a disaster it's the churches that are feeding, housing, and looking after people long before either the government or I arrive.  :wink:

Quote
We are forced by a bullying corporation to pay high premiums or die.

Nope.  You can pay cash.  You used to have choices.  You'd have more choices if the governments of the country and states were not mandating stuff.

Quote
You are aware you have a right to a fair trial...

and I can find my legal rights in the constitution, but nowhere can I find a "right" to have someone else pay for my healthcare.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
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Online iddee

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2017, 08:42:53 pm »
""Have you ever been in a court of law?  Who pays the cost of our judicial system?  You are aware you have a right to a fair trial...""

I just paid a speeding ticket.  15.00 fine, 188.00 court costs.

I paid it online.

Now, you tell me it cost the courts 188.00 for that computer to record that money.   B.S.    It stands for more than Bee Stuff.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2017, 09:27:06 pm »
I am not sure what to say at this point. Ace has already been debunked and he seems to be the only one with counter arguments.

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Offline herbhome

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2017, 02:02:00 am »
""Have you ever been in a court of law?  Who pays the cost of our judicial system?  You are aware you have a right to a fair trial...""

I just paid a speeding ticket.  15.00 fine, 188.00 court costs.

I paid it online.

Now, you tell me it cost the courts 188.00 for that computer to record that money.   B.S.    It stands for more than Bee Stuff.

One of the more sensible posts I've read in this thread!



As to paying for other's rights, or not paying for that matter. Consider this, perhaps law enforcement should only be available to taxpayers...or fire protection...sewer systems...access to public roads, parks etc...firearm ownership...wow, that's the dream, freedom for those who can afford it.
Neill

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2017, 03:51:43 am »
""Have you ever been in a court of law?  Who pays the cost of our judicial system?  You are aware you have a right to a fair trial...""

I just paid a speeding ticket.  15.00 fine, 188.00 court costs.

I paid it online.

Now, you tell me it cost the courts 188.00 for that computer to record that money.   B.S.    It stands for more than Bee Stuff.

One of the more sensible posts I've read in this thread!



As to paying for other's rights, or not paying for that matter. Consider this, perhaps law enforcement should only be available to taxpayers...or fire protection...sewer systems...access to public roads, parks etc...firearm ownership...wow, that's the dream, freedom for those who can afford it.
I had to install my own septic system... The emergency squad/fire department here is all volunteer. You just listed proper roles of government. If government only did the things you listed we would not have this discussion.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Acebird

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2017, 09:17:57 am »
and I can find my legal rights in the constitution, but nowhere can I find a "right" to have someone else pay for my healthcare.

One of the major reasons why the United States is a world power is that it has a written constitution that can be changed as the world evolves.  We are certainly not smarter then the other people around the world but we have created a country that has rights that other people want.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2017, 09:21:20 am »
freedom for those who can afford it.

Oh wow!  If you go back to this way of thinking it will be a short path to only 6% of the countries citizens having freedoms.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline gww

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2017, 09:38:23 am »
Eric
Quote
I had to install my own septic system... The emergency squad/fire department here is all volunteer. You just listed proper roles of government. If government only did the things you listed we would not have this discussion.

You said all aces arguements were debunked.  You said Herb homes list was proper gov. 
You say you just paid for your septic.  It is sorta like those who believe in creation or evolution argueing with each other and saying they have debunked the other side.  Both of thier reliegions make them believe they have debunked the other side but neither had enough proof to make the issue go away but more just enough for each side to stick to what ever side they are already on.

You paid for your septic.  How about your phone and your electric, your mail?  There was a time when city folk had these things but private industry did not think it profitable to go the the end of the line where people were more sparsly populated and so those people had do get wind mills and use oil lamps.  It was gov involvement that made america more then a third world country where unlike a place like colubia where the drug cartels build little compounds with all the anuities but the rest of the population around them lives in squaller.

All these things that the gov got involved in brought the haves and the have nots living standard up to the levels we are used to today.  I know all about the (I just paid for a septic).  My grandma was poor and it was an out house and a hand pump for water and when you took a bath it was a lot of pumping and heating water on a stove.

You can have any belief you want but it might be a stretch to say ace has been totally debunked depending on what the person who now has a higher standard of living compared to what it once was before the gov got involved.  I personaly think it is better to flip a switch for light and turn on a fauset for a bath and being able to do this because the gov got involved.  Some things are just to big for individuals to do well at with out the gov help.

I hate infringements as much as the next guy and want what I want with out oversite.  I don't want to get a permit to build something that I am paying for.  I don't want a gov inspection before I can move in or to have to get an occupancy permit to move some where.  So I am not saying that a line does not have to be drawn on how much involvement in our lives is too much.  I don't think the case can be made that everything the gov does is bad though.  There is a lot of bad and a lot of good and bad is bad no matter who does it just as good is good.
Cheers
gww

Offline gww

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2017, 09:44:35 am »
Kathy
Quote
and I can find my legal rights in the constitution, but nowhere can I find a "right" to have someone else pay for my healthcare.

I am thinking that the constitution says what the goverment can not do "to" you but I am not sure it limmits what it can do "for" you.
Cheers
gww

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2017, 10:39:25 am »
So, BWallace,  back to your OP;
My thought is that there is no chance of any meaningful tax reform as long as the DemoRats and RepubliCons continue attempts to out-sleaze each other.
Winter is coming.

I can't say I hate the government, but I am proudly distrustful of them.